Leaving an abusive relationship may be a difficult choice but it's still a choice, right?

[maggiethemagpie]

I will confess before we go any further that I have very little experience of abusive relationships. Personally - never, I am just not attracted to that kind of dynamic. I was exposed to my mum's abusive relationship with my stepfather when I was a child however. Maybe that's why I have 'never gone there' as an adult?

I have a friend who knows being with her abusive partner is the wrong thing, and says things like she hopes it will fizzle out or he'll want to spend less time with her (fat chance) but despite repeatedly trying to leave him, can't do so.

I have struggled to understand why. They are not married, or cohabiting, have no dependents, and have been together apx 18 months (they are late 30s) however she has been trying to leave him since 4 months in.

I can see that psychologically she's in some sort of trap, but surely the ultimate choice to stay or go is hers? I'm not denying that it's a difficult choice, it must be a very difficult choice but then life is full of difficult choices and these are what shape us and make us grow.

So is it a free choice to stay in these kind of relationships? Or is it a bit like addiction - where logically the right thing to do is to stop but due to the drug dependency it's not so easy?

I do have some experience with addiction so that may be an easier way to understand it. I don't subscribe to a disease model though - I still think remaining addicted to anything be it drink, substance or gambling or whatever, is still a choice although often a very difficult one.

So is remaining in an abusive relationship a choice or not?

It will wash, if someone is abused, let's say they didn't have his dinner on the table on time or something, and the abuser blames the woman, I wouldn't agree that it's her fault that she's being abused for that.

I think the problem is that you are not really grasping the complexities of an abusive relationship.

It can be really hard to explain, in words, because it doesn't convey the amount of time and effort an abuser puts into trapping their victim, to making them believe they are powerless, deserving of abuse and that they can change the abuse, if only they weren't so weak, lazy, stupid etc.

When you leave, you still believe all of those things, but now, Nice Guy is back, telling you how great you're doing, explaining that if only you'd been this way when you were with them, things would have been different. They were wrong, they're sorry, they won't do it again, they won't need to because you are a better person now, stronger. You're not sure if you believe them but you want to. You're alone now. It's still hard, harder in some ways, you're not as financially secure, you can't go out, you can't afford to, some things were better with your abuser. Somethings are still the same. He is still abusing you, but in a different way, a way you can't see quite so clearly.

Do you go back? I didn't, but surely you can see why some people might?

Mrs Bluesky I hope it all works out for you. It shouldn't be your responsibility to leave, life isn't fair sometimes. But you have accepted that its what you must do... I hope you find the loving relationship you wanted in the future, if that's what you want.

Itwillwash - yes, that's how my friend's boyfriend seems to work. She wants to believe the nice guy she fell in love with is the real him.

Haha, it is really funny that I should be held accountable for not leaving my abuser a bit/a lot sooner.
No worries, my punishment is fit for my crime. If you have kids you have to live with the fall out of all your choices for the rest of your days.
I also agree I am a looser, as with all the abuse I let him do to me I am now practically unemloyable, what with the anxiousness I so foolishly allowed him to imbue in me when I had the cheek to survive When he tried to strangle me. I mean, 4 times! What an idiot I was for staying, since he clearly would try to kill me if I left. Well, more fool me, since after his arrest he has Not killed me. I should have known and just waltzed out of there. To where? Who cares? My self respect would have paid for it all.

I ambeing sarcastic, or summat. Can you tell?
Luckily other people have a bit more practical approach than some postere here, and support organisations do exist. Where you are supported out of the fucking quagmire, not just told you shouldnt have put up with it in the first place.

Of course she wants to believe him. She was happy and he really was a nice man. She wouldn't have fallen in love with him if he wasn't.

I want my ex back. The one I first met. I want the man who would bring me lunch at work because he wanted to spend time with me. I want the man who would sneak my spare key home with him, so he could come back and run me a bath, make my dinner and do my ironing while I was at college because he could see how hard I was working.

I want the man who would bring treats for my cat even though he didn't like cats. I want the man who would walk the floor with another man's child at 5am because I'd been there since 1am and couldn't take much more and he could settle her, when I couldn't.

I want the man who would tell me how beautiful I was and how he was nothing without me.

It took me a long time after leaving to realise that man was not real. He never had been. For a long time I thought there was something wrong with my ex, something that had made him change, stress or depression maybe. It hadn't all been an act. He wasn't that clever. The abuse wasn't deliberate either. He wasn't clever enough to be that insidious, he was just a bit thick and insensitive. He could learn.

I never went back for various reasons, but I still believed that for years, the man I met was real and could come back. I can see him for what he is now. He still tries to abuse me, but after years of trying and failing to stop him, I have learned to shut him out, he has no power over me.

Did you spot all the red flags btw? I didn't. Not when they were happening.

OP, you seem to have a very narrow definition of abusive relationships. Not every abusive relationship involves being shouted at or explicitly controlled.

I used to have a pretty narrow definition, too. That's one of the things that stopped me seeing that I was in an abusive relationship for so long. After all, I wasn't being shouted at, I wasn't being ordered not to leave the house or have his dinner on the table by 6 or anything like that, I wasn't cowering in fear of him, so I couldn't possibly be being abused...

That does make a lot of sense to me Itwillwash, I think the 'hope of the dream' interpretation as I'll call it does go a long way to explaining why these relationships can be so hard to leave.

I'll admit that if my partner suddenly changed tomorrow, it would take a while for the penny to drop that he wasn't the man he used to be. How long I can't say.

I think in any relationship that's not working there has to be a moment of realising one has 'backed the wrong horse' but I can see that in an abusive one he would keep you dangling as he would turn back in to mr. nice guy the very moment you tried to leave, whereas if just going out with say a cheat, or someone you'd just fallen out of love with, this would not happen.

My friend did share texts he'd sent her the last time she'd left. They'd had a big row as she'd had the temerity to disagree with him, he ended up emptying the dirty vegetable draw from the fridge into her hair. He's not been physcially violent in the hit/punch sense but I guess this falls into the 'violent without hitting' category?

She got all her things and left , he then sent sweet little texts saying sorry i love you, he said he couldn't remember what had happened (!). I did discuss with her that it was part of the trap, the pattern, to get her back and she accepted that and resolved not to reply. I said if he comes round your flat don't answer the door. He came round her flat...she answered the door... game over.

She does seem to believe she can change him, I think she knows on one level she's deluding herself, but unfortunately she doesn't want to believe the alternative, that he's a nasty abusive twat, and so it continues....

OP, you've already mentioned that your situation with your friend is stirring up unwelcome memories in you of your own childhood with your abusive stepfather. And your mum's initial unwillingness/inability to leave?

And I think that you are correct that some of the frustration you feel isn't really with your friend; it is really frustration, resentment and unresolved issues with your own mum. And that is why you are finding it so difficult to deal with. You are back to being a child again, powerless to intervene when you see history repeating itself.

On the positive side, she is not tied to this guy (no kids, no marriage, no house together) so that makes it easier for her to get out when she is finally strong enough. Maybe try to take him out of the equation when you are with her - don't talk about him to her, just invite her to do nice stuff that doesn't include him. If she continues to let you down then at that point you might even have to face up to the fact that the friendship has already gone.

Maggie thank you for your reply - I'm not here to bait you, or use your openness against you. I am genuinely interested in the experiences and emotions that inform your beliefs.

By 'abandonment' do you mean that previous partners ended relationships with you in ways that were specifically hurtful for you? Where does this fall on a scale of relationship behaviours in your opinion? Could it actually be classed as abusive if there was malicious forethought to cause distress to another human being? I have spent the majority of my adult life either in long-term relationships or when not, in some cases for years, as very happily single. I was not needy or desperate to be in a relationship at any point. I ended relationships appropriately and with consideration for my then partners, with sadness and tears on either side at times but no abuse, manipulation, cheating or violence involved.

I could say my ex 'abandoned' me (although I was the one who physically left). When all his profound assertions of love and respect for me couldn't disguise the (physical) evidence of what he had been doing behind my back for all of those years, I was broken. It was all a lie, every last second, and he knew exactly what he was doing. That's a pretty psyche shattering moment.

Like a PP said, I too came to MN as a happily married woman and later found the Relationships board when little pieces of my life just didn't seem to be adding up. I found answers/explanations and support, but it was a long process to the realisation that I was indeed being abused.

Having read further I would like to apologise for my earlier comments, which were unkind.

Abuse is insididious and I think we don't realise how many ways it affects us. My abusive relationship has been over for years and years but talking and thinking about it drags up some painful memories.

for everyone who has had their life affected by abuse.

*insidious

This is an interesting explanation of how the brain responds to trauma. It's specifically about sexual violence but is easily applied to all kinds of abuse.

The golden rule when supporting someone - professionally or personally - who is experiencing domestic abuse is to think 'what does the abuser do?' and do the opposite. Being frustrated with someone for not doing what you think they should do isn't offering much of an alternative to what she's already experiencing.

If i knew, to answer your question, I experienced a lot of abandonment as a very young child, dad left when young, mum couldn't cope, hired help/a succession of nannies. So this became my theme. And when she shacked up with abusive stepdad, I guess this was also abandonment for me in a sense.

As an adult I spent a large proportion of the time very UNhappily single/desperate for a relationship and unable to attract one which was traumatising in its own way for me as it confirmed my belief at that time that no one wanted me.

I did have one successful-ish long term relationship in my 20s and then a succession of short term relationships where the guy just got bored after a couple of months, wasn't in any way abusive just said he didn't want to be with me any more. I remember thinking I could never get past the two month mark! (except for the longer one referred to above)

I did go out with one serial cheat /liar who was sociopathic, extremely charming at the start but the relationship became increasingly empty and shallow and I eventually realised he was not all that and dumped him. I do remember being very wary of him and knowing not to get too deeply emotionally involved, but I was not strong enough at that time in my life to admit he was a wrong un until about three months in, when I ended it. It was hard to leave him though and I went back more than once. He wasn't abusive, unless you count cheating/lying as abuse. He certainly wasn't controlling - he didn't try to win me back, it was me that went back of my own accord when I did finally finish it he accepted it without protest.

That's a checkered history of my relationship history (or lack of relationships) pre my lovely DP.

Annie, I have every right to be frustrated at my friend for letting me down due to not wanting to upset him.

To be frustrated at her for failing to leave him - ok , you can say 'mind your own business'.

But when she lets me down, it gets to a point where I don't have to take it any more.

Why is it that the only person with rights in this situation is the abused person not her friend that she repeatedly lets down (due to his influence)

Before him, we got on fine... he changed everything.

Maggie, of course you have every right to be angry, annoyed, frustrated at being let down. Anybody would.

She is treating you badly, whether that is her intention or not. And you might need to take a break from her for your own well-being.

I'm not arguing that you don't have rights - of course you do. But you also seem to want to be her friend.

I am simply just stating that it isn't very helpful for your friend to have not one, but two people be frustrated with her for not doing what they want. Neither you nor he seem to respect her right to do what she wants with her life.

Kidnapped, that is my conclusion too. It's a shame, I'm sure he is delighted though as she's told me he sees me as a threat.

Actually Annie, I'm not sure I do want to be her friend any more. I'm not quite ready to close the door on her completely but I don't feel like hanging out any more and she seems happy to take a bit of a break too.

I totally understand that - you have to take care of your own well-being and supporting someone who is being abused is tough work. There's a reason DA professionals get clinical supervision!

No-one should put up with being treated badly and as as Kidnapped points out - she is treating you badly even though that may not be her intention.

Maggie again thank you for your reply and openness.

I do count cheating/lying as abuse by the way, and oddly glad that this ex partner exposed his true colours before too much damage was caused. It's interesting that you say he didn't try to win you back - there are many types of abusers, not all want to keep up the pretence long-term and prefer to move on to their next victim.

Like some other people on this thread you say you went back to him several times, like your friend is doing in her relationship? While you have described some horribly abusive behaviours of her partner, you haven't (I don't think?) said that he cheats on her (the abuser always knows where the line is and they do refine and personalise their torture). If you realised that you were being serially cheated on/lied to, why be in that relationship for a second longer than the instant you became aware of it if it is indeed a choice we make? Your friend is in an abusive relationship, you were in an abusive relationship - but you feel that because you left after three months she should be able to do the same? Do you see what I mean?

None of the above is in any way a criticism of you or your life choices, just a gentle nudge towards perhaps seeing that your friend and you have more in common, not less, than you think. By all means set your boundaries in the friendship to protect yourself, but please don't abandon her because then he'll have achieved another step on the abuser's tick-list.

I'm not easily controlled, I don't respond well to it and I'm pretty strong-willed. Highly educated too. Still ended up in an abusive relationship though. I think I was all the more appealing because I wasn't easily controlled, it was more of a challenge, more satisfying to break me down than if I'd been easy to control in the first place.

Bertie (I've taken screenshots of some of your posts) and others who've expressed so eloquently what I'm only just beginning to see clearly for myself, thank you for your insight and taking the time to share it. I've found many of the OP's posts frustrating and upsetting to read, but yours have really helped me, and I'm sure others too

That's life - maybe that's why I've never had a relationship with a manipulative partner and you have?

Maggie your still being very naive and condescending about this. You would not always know you are being manipulated, they are very clever usually. Not always, and in those cases I can see some of your points made, but u are still not getting that there are no red flags at first, all this therapy this, therapy that! Other very intelligent people would agree with u, well that's all lovely but u don't know your being manipulated, even you! Yes you it can happen to anyone. However I probably would pick it up quicker than u now because I have been through it. You would maybe think everyone is manipulating apart from your perfect partner in your perfect relationship. Just listen to yourself!!!!

Just to avoid misinterpretation, by saying highly educated I'm thinking that I was fortunate to have resources available and means to access them that some people don't, and I still couldn't get away for a long time. Not implying that a few degrees under your belt mean it's unusual for it to happen to you.

greencarbluecar I know exactly what your trying to say, basically anyone can end up in an abusive relationship it's nothing to do with intelligence or background etc etc. I remember someone saying to me I wasn't being abused by him I'm far too sensitive and what a smashing guy he was....he went on to abuse women after me , one of which contacted me for support she also took him to court. People think and say so many things they don't realise what these people are like. My abuser went councilling to try and prove he wanted to change, he managed to convince the councillor he was no abuser but a decent guy ! He will continue to do this over and over again

Hmm I have to say the PoV of the OP is appealing to me. The idea that you are the one in control of your life and you can always make a choice (along with responsibility) is an idea that is driving my life in general.
I've also been in an unhealthy relationship and have been unable to get out. Fear of being on my own with to dcs, fear of not coping, fear of not enough money, fear, fear.
What 'saved' me is the strong conviction I was the one in charge of my life and decisions.

However, for me, this is not a stick to beat someone up. The 'well you chose to stay' type of attitude. It's a light at the end of the tunnel. A ray of light to guide me and my actions instead.

I find it fascinated to see how it could so easily be taken the other way around by other people.