It's long, I'm so in the wrong, but I'm in a mess and need a place to talk...

[AnotherFineMess16]

... if you could see your way fit to let me and reach a hand into the flames that I suspect are about to engulf me. I'm ready.

Nobody knows any of this. Some people know some things, but nobody knows it all apart from me and him. I suppose I'm at the point now I need an outside, objective opinion from somebody who, yes, might judge, but will do so from a place of fairness and neutrality (I hope). I thank you in advance.

16 years ago, I embarked on an 2 year long affair. He was married, I was single. I was 24, he was 30. Yes, there were kids involved, I know it was wrong, but I did it. I have no excuses, unless love/infatuation/lust is one. There is no other. It was wrong, we were wrong, I knew it, he knew it, yet we did it. There is nothing I can do to change that now. Long story short, he left his then wife and we were together. About a year afterwards, he dumped me from a great height. Completely out of the blue and it devastated me. "Karma" I hear you cry? Maybe so, I don't believe in it particularly, but this was certainly payback. A couple of months later, he came to me to tell me that he had gotten another girl pregnant. The dates suggest that she was impregnated either very close to the end of our relationship or just before. I have never had the stomach to ask too many questions, we were over anyway and I was already in a very, very dark place and physically and mentally could not cope with any more at this point. I'm not exaggerating when I tell you that I was in pieces. He wanted me back several times thereafter, but I couldn't and wouldn't. And, as it does, life moved on and so did I eventually. We stayed in touch throughout the years. The odd text, mail or (drunken) phone call. Ashamed to say there were a few nights together in there too. He would always tell me he made the biggest mistake of his life letting me go. I agreed with him. There is huge back story about his now ex wife and family and their (justified) hatred of me that also led to him dumping me, but the buck stopped with him and he just didn't love me enough, no matter what he says. I, however, sap that I am, always loved him, but the damage was so done and so was I. The whole thing really scarred me.

9 years ago I met a man. A lovely, kind, responsible man who I respected and had a deep fondness for. I knew I didn't love him passionately but I knew he would never let me down. Our sex life was never very good, but being in whatever dillusional frame of mind I was at that time, I thought I could live without it and that there was much more to life than sex. I was 31. We eventually married. We did not have sex on our honeymoon. In fact, we very rarely had sex at all. I would never tell anyone or disaparage my husband IRL, but he was unable to perform most of the times we tried. We eventually stopped even trying nearly 4 years ago. We haven't been intimate since. We both decided we'd like a child together, so as I had my own 'wimmins' problems, we used that as our excuse to go for IVF. We were very lucky and successful and we now have one child. It doesn't take a genius to work out the next bit...

Enter original MM. We got back in touch, we met, we slept together 4 months ago. We have now met 9 more times (it would be more but we live a distance apart) and have spoken/text/mailed eachother every day since. And here comes the cliche and I can hear myself, I know what I sound like, a fuckin' stupid idiot, but I love him. And I believe he loves me. We want to be together, properly and just do it right this time. Although, I accept it's been a very shitty start. Shortly after this first meeting, I finally sat with my husband and told him what I should have done months if not years previously, that the marriage was over. I did not tell him about the OM. We are now separated, although we continue to live together until we can find a suitable place for him to move into. We will co-parent our child and we are amicable right now. Probably due, in no small part to the fact that he doesn't know about OM. I know that we would have separated soon, regardless of the OM entering my life again. I was a fool to think otherwise.

OM is in a LTR, however, they are also in separate bedrooms, he tells me. I do believe him, as gullible as that makes me sound. He has told me he will leave in the next 6 months but he wants to make the break as 'gentle' as possible. They have no children together, but she has 2, one of which is a teenager and lives with them. He feels responsibility towards this child as well as wanting to spare his partner as much as possible. I do not agree with his strategy, but it is his plan so I will leave him to do it. We have agreed to have no more meetings and very reduced contact for the coming months until such time as we are free to pursue a legitmate relationship.

God, I do love him but I don't know if I'll ever be able to fully trust him and I'm so worried I'm going to be hurt again. Yet, yet, yet, I can't seem to stop it. What am I even asking for here? From you? I don't know really. A big bucket of wake up and smell the coffee maybe? I'm a fucking mess. Are we completely selfish bastards? Are we wrong for wanting to be together and have some sort of happiness for the rest of our days? Can anyone out there, any of you, see any hope or happiness coming out of this? I'm not a fool, really. I know we're not some modern day Romeo and Juliette, I know there is no such thing as 'soul mates' but if there were, he seems to be mine. He's my lobster... Has anyone had anything similar happen? Maybe you could tell me how it turned out? OK. I'm braced. Thanks for reading.

Yes, keep telling yourself until you believe it, which will likely take time.

And most importantly, really try hard to stay NC with him, block him so you don't get his messages etc. put an elastic band on your wrist and ping it every time you feel yourself wanting to look at messages or contact him.

I'm signing off for now. I'm wrung out. I'll probably ask for this to be deleted after I read it all again a few times. I have a feeling I'm going to need the straight talking I've had here to get me through. A lot of this is self indulgent, whiney crap, I'm well aware "but i looooove him....". I know how pathetic I sound. But I'm not pathetic, not deep down. I need and want to move on from this and from him. It's been too many years and too many tears over this man. And that's all he is at the end of the day; a man.

You have, each and every one of you, given me something to think about. Again, all of you can't be wrong. There may have been some things said I don't agree with, but I gave you the story, gave you the platform to judge and comment and that's what you have done. Thank you.

I'm leaving here today saying I'm not going to contact him. I will, however, tell him why I'm cutting it off when he contacts me, which he will. And then I will say goodbye and leave it behind. I will. I just want my chance to tell him I'm wise to him, I know what's what. I'm not the fool he's taken me for. Rightly or wrongly, that's what I want to leave him with as my parting shot. His loss and all that. He won't give a shit most likely, but maybe in 5 or 10 years when he's on his own and he's lost that charm and sparkle, he'll remember. Is it wrong to want him to regret it?

As sad as it sounds, I really hope I meet someone in the future who is the real deal, the whole package, the real lobster of my life. Some of your stories have inspired me and helped me believe that he is out there. Hell, there's an ocean full of eligible crustaceans out there, right?! Maybe. We'll see. But first and foremost I need to find me again and move on with my DD and settle into our new life.

You're a smart bunch, I did the right thing coming here. I can't tell you how much I needed a place to talk and be talked to. You've done me a great service, thanks.

Over and out x

You are the real lobster of your life... Cheesy but true...

NC will be very tough. I believe telling him why will not be a good idea because negative attention is still attention but you must do things your way.

Good luck, you can do it. You will make mistakes on the way, hopefully you will get there in the end

well personally op i think you're full of shit.

From what i've read you don't give a crap about anyone but number one - yourself. You havn't shown the slightest indicatio fo remorse for all the victims your actions have left behind, none at all, all you're interested in is your needs, your wants.

Oh i'm sure you're sorry, but i think you're only sorry for yourself, because self pity is comfortable as it's all about you again.

Good luck with going N/C.

'The lobster thing may have been a joke, but it's telling (as jokes usually are). There's no such thing as soulmates, OK? Only teenagers watching Friends think otherwise.'

I disagree with this. I'll stand up and categorically tell you there is such a thing, and I'm very, very far from 18...in fact I've got a few years on the OP.

Just because someone hasn't experienced something themselves, doesn't mean it isn't real. (eg. can you swear Jane was in the Co-op yesterday? Yes because I saw her. Can you swear Jane was not in the Co-op yesterday? I didn't see her but no, I can't be sure she wasn't there.)

BUT being soulmates isn't necessarily enough. The point about a soulmate is that it's just a thing - you can't choose for someone to be your soulmate, just whether you decide to be with them. A person's soulmate might be a bully, a cheat, an abuser, a right twat, a serial kill...and sometimes walking away from a soulmate must be the right thing to do for all concerned.

personally, OP, I reckon that leaving your relationship is the right thing to do if it isn't a fulfilling relationship. Then being alone with your child is the right thing to do. When you are able to comfortably be alone, you may/will hopefully find yourself in a better state of mind to make far reaching decisions. very boring, sorry.

well done for taking this on, as it cant have been easy reading at all.

GOOD LUCK

Good luck OP. FWIW I think you're doing the right thing by not telling your dh. Putting myself in his shoes, I'd rather not know tbh.

I do wonder whether if he had put more effort into his erectile issues, you may well have had a happy and satisfying sex life and ergo a happy marriage. Living without sex, when you have a sex drive and your partner isn't interested, is horrible (yes I do know from first hand experience).

IMO the only thing you can do is move on from your marriage, look after yourself, go NC with other man and make your life happy on your own. If you're contented in yourself, finding someone later on will be the icing on the cake. Probably amateur psychology here, but I would imagine that if you come across as someone who has their life sorted, is happy and won't take shit from wankers, you're more likely to attract the sort of man who will treat you properly?

Good luck to you.

I wish you good luck OP I really do but I can't help but think you've missed the point somewhat.

You are feeling angry because you found out he lied to you not because you think what you are doing is wrong. You make jokes about missing an empathy chip but the hurt that both of you have caused is something you need to face up to otherwise you are in danger of repeating your behaviour in another relationship.

I think you really need to get counselling to get to the bottom of why you were prepared to assist in ripping apart another home.

I don't doubt you love your daughter but the example you are setting her isn't good.

I'm not a wronged wife but the child of a mother who behaved like you and believe me some of the phrases you use I've heard from her mouth. It resulted in me losing a lot of respect for her and damaged our relationship for a long time.

I hope you'll stick to your resolve. Just remember, you'll never find Mr Right when you're dangling after Mr Wrong.

Good luck, I hope everything works out for you and your little one

Offred wrote:

IMO is a primary attachment to OM and sabotage of yourself and your marriage as a result.

OP replied:

How do I 'cure' myself of this primary attachment to OM. I want to be free of this knot in my stomach

There are so many threads periodically appearing here that have the same theme: - a toxic man (variously shagger/narcissist/EA) holds some fatal fascination for a woman. So much so that she is so magnetically drawn to him (by lust but I think it's more complicated). She will repeatedly go back to this man when he pops up in her life, hope triumphing over experience. She is unable to move on.

My question is: do women who have been in this position ever get over it? do they ever get cured? Or do they always have this residual obsession with the toxic man bubbling away below the surface?

It just seems to me that women who write these posts actually never do get over it. TI wonder if the best that can be hoped for is no contact and suppression of feelings. I mean look at this thread as an example - 16 YEARS!! Personally, it's all a bit of a mystery to me - but OPs question made me wonder - is there anyone out there who ever properly got over one of this on/off/toxic life-long re-cycling programmes?

You can get over it if you face reality yes. The women who don't haven't gotten over it because facing reality is too painful for them.

IMO

And when I say 'get over it' I mean break free of the attachment.

It's a trauma bond based attachment IMO. And yes, trauma bonds can be broken by facing reality.

The women who don't haven't gotten over it because facing reality is too painful for them.

But a lot of these threads are all "I know he's a [bastard/narcissist/whatever] BUT I still love him". Most of them (sorry to categorise like this) seem to have a full grasp of reality that the man doesn't really love them and is no good for them - yet they still keep going back for more. typically after attempted long breaks of no contact and trying to move on.

I wonder if a person in this kind of situation is mentally stuck. It can't be about facing reality for most of them as they do seem to get it. I mean even here (Although OP is a bit naïve about whether he is still sleeping with the current partner) she seems to have a proper grasp of the fact he is a cheater and treated her terribly before.

Maybe some men are such a "good fit" of toxic trigger for a woman that she can never really get over it ever. The kind of reverse of a soulmate good relationship - where for whatever reason the toxic man interacts with the woman in a way that so echoes her own issues [way her father treated her/beliefs about herself/so on] that it is like a perfect jigsaw fit - that she can never break free from.

In the same way that people say about alcoholics -that you are always an alcoholic, you are just a dry alcoholic. So many of these threads sound like real addiction to the evil man. And maybe its the same - that if he is an ideal "trigger" for your own pain, you will only ever be a dry-obsessive never a cured obsessive.

Understanding that an abuser treats you badly is not the reality you need to face. The reality you need to face is that you are being abused by an abuser who never has loved you and never will. That your behaviour is being manipulated by them for their maximum benefit and you need to take conscious and positive steps to detach from them.

I think anyone will always carry some pain after a painful experience but I don't think trauma bonds are necessarily forever. Many people choose to continue with the trauma bond by not taking steps to break free. The trauma bond provides them with something too - high drama which becomes addictive.

They don't love the person - they think they do, they have a trauma bond.

And lots of things reinforce them in keeping on trying - lack of willingness to accept they have been used, that the other person is fundamentally flawed and can never love them, sunken costs fallacy, reading romance into trauma etc. it's hard to break free from a trauma bond but not impossible.

Another - can I ask how you see this working out with your daughter ? She's about 2 I guess or younger ?

When you and her father split up , how is it going to work with residence ? If she lives mostly with you, when will you see MM? Will you just " date " on EOW when she's with her dad ?

You said that you were not going to " bring her into it " , so I assume that's what you plan .

If so, how will this work with :

the ? 2 children he has from his first marriage, who I assume are young adults

the child from his second affair, who must be 13

his step child from his current marriage that he's responsible for, who you say is a teenager

When will he see them all ? How often does he see all his kids right now ?

I don't see how he can continue to parent all these kids and have a relationship with you , when some of the kids and some / all their mothers and their families hate you .

Any winehouse got over Blake. And she had it baaaaad.

I have to agree with Sordid - though andthentherewasmum put it more gently. Though goodness knows why when she is a victim of a mother like you.

It's all about you, love - and you're good! You do all that self-flaggelation thing and posters flock! You've pulled off a MN coup: posters fondly wishing you well when you've trashed a number of homes, the OW extraordinaire.

Missing the morality gene? Ain't that the truth.

What has been done is already done springy IMO. I don't believe women who have affairs should be publicly flogged.

I believe all people deserve respect and support when they are in difficulty.

I think people who have done harmful things need to take responsibility and put a stop to that kind of behaviour and crucially that they often need support to do this.

If they are asking for it and wanting to change things then they should get support IMO. Whether they mean to change or mean to take the support or actually make changes is up to them.

Yy to all that. But as Andthentherewasmum says, she's missed the point somewhat.

She's about what SHE wants, what's best for HER. All the people she has trashed - and is currently trashing so, no, not in the past - are walk-on parts, not REAL somehow. Mention her daughter - the daughter in the slip-stream of all this shit - and BOOF she doesn't like that! Bcs it's all about her.

Third person bcs she's gone.

I do think you can get over it because I got over my shagger, and I thought I was going to die from it when we broke up. But it took a long time, a lot of therapy, a lot of work on myself and a lot of support from my friends and family (and later on, thankfully a good marriage with a good man).

What has helped me too most definitely is a decade of complete non contact too. I have seen him perhaps four times in ten years- and all four of those times were in passing. I know without a doubt that he could worm his way back into my brain- not to say that I think I would restart an affair or anything like that, it's been too long and I know him for exactly what he is at this point- but because of the nature of our relationship (teacher/student and the age gap as well as his natural frankly evil charm) I would never ever allow him to get close enough to me to get back into my brain ever again. He's a destructive and evil force and no good could come of any contact between us. He's poison and I was poisoned. I wager OPs guy is the same.