DD (22) surprise engagement...worried

[JudoJelly]

My DD is engaged, she is 22. She has been with him for 3 years since they met at the start of uni. They want to marry next christmas. They have never stayed overnight together or been on holiday and refuse to move in together before marriage. She has just got a reasonably well-paid job and we are helping her buy a flat but he is struggling to find a job. I knew they were considering marriage (they are both religious but DH and I are not) but didn't realise it would happen so soon. I have always felt living together for a few years and getting careers sorted was wise.
I'm concerned there is no real spark. They see each other every few weekends (DD is living in our hometown, he is living at their old uni town). DD seems to love the idea of it all and security of being 'sorted' (her words) but I just don't see real, passionate love and excitement. His upbringing and what he wants in life is very different from DDs but she says they'll work it out. It all is very rushed. Apart from church friends, none of DDs friends are engaged. Some have boyfriends but marriage is definitely not on the cards anytime soon!
If this was 4-5 years time and they had lived together (or even just been on holiday or generally seen that they can cope with extended periods of time together) then I'd be overjoyed. I don't believe he isn't 'the one' for her, I just don't think the time is right or see the rush.
Obviously they are adults and can do as they wish. I would not intervene and stop this but words of wisdom/advice would be useful. DD is generally very sensible and open but I know I need to tread carefully.

Helmet I am not Christian, I am Muslim. I never said a parent can't worry about their adult child, I am saying it is not her call to decide what would supposedly be the best course of action for her daughter in terms of her relationship choices.

Meh- she hasn't done that but hey.

She has, she clearly writes in her OP what she considers to be the right way. And because her daughter chose another course she is now worries. For me that doesn't read as worry but as not respecting or liking her decision.

Well, we'll have to disagree on that.
I read an op where the daughter just wants to get 'things sorted' her bf is not working, they don't see each other v often, and the dd doesn't seem to be much in love.
I'm sorry that mumsnet is not a place where parents can talk over their reasonable concerns about their dc anymore.

I agree with LongHardStare that the fiance should really have a job before he thinks about marriage.

I also agree with Bobo that finding a congenial person of the opposite sex ready and willing to get married straight out of university can be a way of avoiding adult life, getting to know yourself, challenging yourself as an individual. I think it's a case of trying to run before you can walk in many ways.

"DD seems to love the idea of it all and security of being 'sorted' (her words)...His upbringing and what he wants in life is very different from DDs but she says they'll work it out."

This is a young woman who imo above all wants her future settled and she is immature enough to gloss over real problems so that she can manage her early adult crisis or whatever anxiety she feels as she embarks on adult life..

For his part, here is a young man who doesn't have a job but has a girlfriend whose parents are going to help her provide him with a home. His financial and existential crisis get taken care of in one feel swoop -- he gets the adult status conferred by marriage without ever having to work for it, plus a roof over his head, again without having to work for it.

OP, if they go ahead with the plan, please get them to do a prenup in which ownership of the home will revert to you or to you and DD in case of a split, and he agrees to leave and find another address.

'22 is an adult' is a bald statement that may or may not cover all 22 year olds.

Yes some have held down jobs for years, lived independently, found solid partners, had babies, bought homes, brought up siblings, etc. But many have lived since 18 in the twilight zone of university, with their year still broken up by long school-type summer and winter holidays just as life was when they were four or ten or fifteen, with perhaps a part time summer job to make a little pocket money.

It's my understanding that prenuptual agreements have no legal status in the UK. If the flat belongs to the daughter and they get married he will have a claim. That can be contested, but it will be for a judge to determine.

dh and I got engaged when he was still in education. No idea if my mother thought we were in love or not, it was so stressful being around her given her dislike of dh, and disapproval of our choices that neither of us were our usual selves really.

The OP's dd has only just got a job, and her fiance is only months out of university. That might be a good reason to say wait until things settle down a bit before getting engaged (I've never really seen the point in long engagements anyway), but it's likely not through any particular failing or gold digging tendencies of the man. It often takes a while to get your first professional job.

Then perhaps the flat should remain in the name of the OP and it could be rented to the couple.

Or the OP could withdraw financial support and see how quickly the young man remembers he has to wash his hair next December.

When I reflect on myself at the age of 22, I wish I could go back in time & give myself a shake!!

Yes, I'd lived away from home, been to university, but was staggeringly immature. I bought a flat with my boyfriend of 4/5 years & we moved in together at 23. Just kids playing grown- ups really. By 29 I'd outgrown the relationship but unfortunately we'd married along the way - we'd simply needed a conclusion at 25 & after 7 years together. I was divorced by 30.

I didn't know what I didn't know.

I'm 21 and living an adult life but I still wouldn't say I'm a fully-fledged adult yet

Thanks all.
I have talked more to DD. I really do think it is a case of (as SauvigonPlonker, mathanxiety and others have noted) a bit of insecurity and an easy way to feel safe and that things are progressing in her relationship and life. It rings true what they have written about the fear when DC finish uni and are starting out with jobs in new cities. It is scary and often lonely and there is a lot of pressure to be socialising a lot, happy and secure. At uni you had a purpose and life set-up by third year but now it is back to the drawing board.
Whether that is it or not, it makes a lot of sense.

DD really believes it is right for her though and I will respect that. I will always question because I am her mother and I want the best for her and she has been brought up to think things through with common sense and remember it is ok to make mistakes.

We are paying for the wedding, we have always said we will. I talked to her about waiting to see in the next few months how her fiance gets on with the job hunt before setting a date. DH is looking at the flat.

It is reassuring that despite how hard we have tried to celebrate this and be there for DD, I am sure our anxieties cannot be 100% hidden, yet DD still feels able to talk to me. She knows we are ultimately with her, not against her. That is how our family works. Those who have found the thread (which I never anticipated would get so much response so thanks) shocking that I could be so interfering, thanks for reminding me DD is mature and capable. And thanks those who can understand my concern for giving reassuring me it is equally OK to discuss my concerns carefully and respectfully with DD.

It's great that your daughter can talk to you freely. I really think you are doing the best you can.

I cannot see any signs of interfering in any of your posts. In your first post, you said explicitly that you wanted to avoid that.

Having adult children comes with its own stresses, I think, which it is very hard to imagine while one's own children are still small. But I think you have struck the balance perfectly, keeping your reservations to yourself, but giving space to talk - as you would for any friend.

Good luck to you all.

By 22 I had been married for 2 years and we had our 2nd child on the way. We had lived together for a couple of years before we married though and been friends since we started secondary school so a bit different situation then your daughter. A lot of people didn't think we would last and openly admit to us now how worried they were. However, age 34 we are still very happily married and have 4 children .
We both found our faith after we married and on reflection I wish we had done what your daughter is doing now. There is something special about waiting to share your lives fully together until you are married. As a poster further up said many churches run marriage prep courses (I know ours does) and this would be a good idea for your daughter and her boyfriend if they haven't done so already ( my apologies if you have mentioned it previously I haven't had time to read the full thread).
I think it is an admirable thing that your daughter is doing and I hope for my children to make similar choices when they are old enough.

Although I do admit I look at young people now and can't believe how young 20 seems - so maybe my dc's could wait until they are a little older then we were

That is unfortunate Savignonplonker but if you have the right man you grow up together and share all your special times. I don't believe age has anything to do with it, as many people divorce.

The mistake was to help her buy a flat, though of course too late now, as giving them somewhere to live that he doesn't need to contribute to makes the getting together so much easier.

A shared cheap (if he wasn't contributing) rented wouldn't have felt so 'sorted'.

*The mistake was to help her buy a flat, though of course too late now, as giving them somewhere to live that he doesn't need to contribute to makes the getting together so much easier.

A shared cheap (if he wasn't contributing) rented wouldn't have felt so 'sorted'.*

I strongly agree with this actually. It's hard because young people struggle so much to buy that any parent who can help will want to. But buying at 22 isn't particularly sensible, she needs a bit of flexibility to move around for work etc.

It also means she's been mollycoddled, which is the last thing you want to do if she's struggling to grow up independently. A few years sorting herself out would have done her the world of good.

It should be possible for DD (and your other DC if you've also given them money for property) to return ownership of your equity in her flat to you and DH; or to seek to make arrangements to try to ensure she keeps the investment in the event of a break-up.

Unless very wealthy indeed, and even then, I wouldn't want to be paying for a big wedding for DC on top of other significant financial help, especially if there was a risk of my money ending up with their ex husband/wife!

A deed of trust is not too complicated- however they might not feel it is romantic...

Judo you sound like a wonderfully supportive mother and your DD will obviously know you've got her back, whatever decision she makes.

I have DCs similar age and older and I will be honest and say I would be as worried as you, and probably more. It sounds to me as if religion is getting in the way of your DD living her life and making decisions. Her religious convictions are shaping what she does. (I know this won't go down well but it's my view). I would imagine (and sorry to all, I havent read the whole thread, just all OPs posts), I would imagine that she wants to spend more time with this guy. I imagine deep down she wants to sleep with him, live with him, do whatever with him but her religion isn't letting her. So her only choice is to get married and then do all these things.

I know a family, their two good looking sons, because of their christian religion, didn't sleep with anyone before getting married. They got married at 22 and 23, fast forward many years - one marriage is over, one is struggling.

I think you need to carry on doing what you're doing Judo but if there is a hint of her being worried about this life changing decision, just be there giving her permission to pull out of this forthcoming marriage. She barely knows him and it would worry me enormously. My DD nearest in age to yours has had a variety of life experiences in relationships that will hopefully shape her future happiness and help her make decisions. I'm not sure what I'm saying really, but yes I would be worried and I get all that you've said.

Yes Roussette that's what religious teachings do: shape what you do, and that is a choice you make. You are saying religion gets in the way if her living her life. What nonsense. So I am
not living my life because I follow the teachings if my faith? Maybe her or my idea of how we want to live our lives are not yours, but nobody has to live by your or anyone else's standards now do we?

I'm sure if the OP's daughter wasn't acting out of her religious views, there wouldn't be half the "worry"

Thanks again.
The flat situation is a long story and I don't think we would have bought it if we could go back now...
Our other DC have had various relationships of various intensities and I do think it is has helped them and is part of growing up. But that is my view and DD can be different. As many have said there are so many factors that lead to successful or unsuccessful marriages. And within that marriages can be successful and happy for years and then suddenly fall apart with no warning. There is no recipe for success. I do think from my own experiences though obvious warning signs shouldn't be ignored.

It is hard... we want DD to enjoy this moment and will not hold her back. But as I said we will encourage thought. Right now the key thing is that we have said allow him time to sort his job and don't feel there is any rush.

Is the boyfriend planning to stay in the uni town - or is he planning to move to the town where your DD has started her career once he starts a job?

Or is your DD planning to move back to the uni town once they are married?

Your DD sounds very successful and sorted already. Are you also concerned about the boyfriends prospects? What are the things (non religious) about the boyfriend that worry you? You said up thread that they had very different out looks on life. Have you seen red flags in his behaviour or opinions which worry you?

You have achieved a great, open, supportive, balanced relationship with your DD - that you should feel proud and reassured of.

The money for the flat is important to ring fence in your name (as the capital and % equity growth) - this is easy to do and standard sensible practice - look at it as not protecting your money if it all goes wrong but ensuring that your DD (and any GC) are provided with a safety net down the line.

Is your DD the youngest? Would this be the first marriage of your children?
What has been her siblings and your DH response - to you and to her?

Fox it is my opinion and I feel there are constraints sometimes. Yes, you choose your own standards, it's nothing to do with me. However, someone else can have an opinion on a forum of strangers without it being labelled as "nonsense". Maybe it is to you. It isnt to me.

Judo - it sounds to me like you are approaching this as a loving parent would. Keep channels of communication open and be there as a support. My family are CofE, not happy clappy, but I was taught no sex before marriage etc. However that was not the path for me and I slept with and lived with my bf before marriage. I guess my parents did not 'approve', he was/is an atheist, but my parents supported me and I knew they were there for me even though they may not have approved. Fast forward 16 years and I am still happily married and my parents love my DH. It is a sort of reverse of your situation - my parents felt as unsure as you do, but like you were loving and though questioned my choices ultimately supported me.

How about asking them to pay for their own wedding?

I think forking over for both the wedding and the flat is going to be counter productive. If the DD wants to get married and is ready then that should include being able to either pay for somewhere to live or for the wedding. She and the fiance could have a few blazing rows in the context of a wedding she may or may not feel like paying for 100% -- his job prospects, her rush to strong arm him down the aisle, etc. I think having to pay for one or the other would inject a dose of reality here. It would be preferable to have to pay for both as many young people their age do.