DD (22) surprise engagement...worried

[JudoJelly]

My DD is engaged, she is 22. She has been with him for 3 years since they met at the start of uni. They want to marry next christmas. They have never stayed overnight together or been on holiday and refuse to move in together before marriage. She has just got a reasonably well-paid job and we are helping her buy a flat but he is struggling to find a job. I knew they were considering marriage (they are both religious but DH and I are not) but didn't realise it would happen so soon. I have always felt living together for a few years and getting careers sorted was wise.
I'm concerned there is no real spark. They see each other every few weekends (DD is living in our hometown, he is living at their old uni town). DD seems to love the idea of it all and security of being 'sorted' (her words) but I just don't see real, passionate love and excitement. His upbringing and what he wants in life is very different from DDs but she says they'll work it out. It all is very rushed. Apart from church friends, none of DDs friends are engaged. Some have boyfriends but marriage is definitely not on the cards anytime soon!
If this was 4-5 years time and they had lived together (or even just been on holiday or generally seen that they can cope with extended periods of time together) then I'd be overjoyed. I don't believe he isn't 'the one' for her, I just don't think the time is right or see the rush.
Obviously they are adults and can do as they wish. I would not intervene and stop this but words of wisdom/advice would be useful. DD is generally very sensible and open but I know I need to tread carefully.

Unless there is something actually wrong with the fellow eg drugs/gangsta I would relax and be happy and help with wedding plans. No person is ever quite good enough for one's offspring of course but that isn't really the point. There is only one life and she may never find someone else she gets on with.

You could be describing me 20 years ago.

Bright high achiever, with long term bf (although mine had a job), religious with CofE background but more modern "happy clappy" church, did not want sex before marriage with then bf, engaged in early 20s with plans to marry a year later.

Except it was for stability, security and fear - exactly as mathanxiety's post reads. There was no spark, no buzz, nothing really. I thought I loved him but I suspect I was more in love with the idea of love, weddings, big dresses and church bells.

My parents weren't happy, they were very concerned about the risk of me abandoning career plans to become sahm / housewife. Which is a valid and right life choice for many people, but would not have been for me. Then bf assured them he would support me in any life choices.

The wedding was everything I had dreamed of. I started crying on the plane heading off on honeymoon thinking "omg what have I done..." The marriage lasted 4 months proper, 2 years ish after that. Then DH wanted me to drop out of training, be a wife & mother, stay home ...

Fast forward two decades and I am with DH2, two amazing boys, a wonderful marriage with the stability and reliability that I craved, together with much spark and more support than I could ever hope for.

I wouldn't have listened to my parents that first time though. But they supported me, Dad made our cake, they told me their worries but were 100% there for me. So at 4am when it all fell apart they were at the door to take me home when I called.

Tell your DD of your concerns but equally - if it doesn't work out - make sure she knows she can run to you if she needs to. To this day there has never been an "I told you so" or any mention of how my stubborn insistence on going ahead with it affected our family.

Oh and I'm agnostic now too. Once I'd got out of the marriage and away from the rather all embracing church environment (it was our entire social life) I questioned things too much to go back.

Judo, my youngest girl went away to the Uk to study when she was 18 and when she was home on holiday during her 3rd year she met someone. They then had a long distance relationship till she came home but given where we live there was no living together and she still lived at home while he was about 100 miles away finishing medical school. They would see each other ever couple of weeks for a few hours and Ive no idea what they got up to during that time. They knew they wanted to get married but she was on an interns tiny wage and he was still getting pocket money from his mum and dad. They really couldn't afford to be married and his family were worried that even if they could get married it would affect his studies he'd fail his final year exams. We were equally worried about her career. They also felt he should be able to provide more than his pocket money ever would.

So this is what we did. We agreed to them getting married and both families supported them financially in various ways. I had an apartment I let them live in, the lads pocket money was upped considerably so he could still live where his uni was as well as pay some of their living expenses, and my daughter did what she could on her tiny interns wage. She's a teacher.

A year after getting married my daughter was earning a salary so both families withdrew some (not all) support and they still lived in my apartment (with strings attached). By then my SIL also had a salary but it was a tiny interns one so they were still really quite skint, and not even living together full time as he was out in the sticks doing his residencies.

So fast forward a few years to yesterday when they celebrated their 3rd wedding anniversary by moving into a house they'd found and renovated all on their own. That was the string attached to them still living in my apartment - they had to save up whatever they could for a mortgage instead of paying rent.

They're so happy together, and they have a great life. No children yet and none planned for about another 2-3 years as my daughter is mid way through a masters. She gave up work to do it so she could get it done in 2 years instead of 3 but also because it involves travelling to the Uk every few months and it didn't fit in with time off work. Its her husband who supports them now but she's going back to work in the September when she's finished.

They're great together and Im really pleased both families got over their very genuine concerns and went with the flow.

Just give it a go

T and his thread is as old as the hills. Mother doesn't approve of prospective son-in-law. It's as simple as that. When I got engaged, my mother said, "We were afraid this was going to happen!" Here we are almost 30 years later, happily married. I never forgave my mother for saying that although I ignored it at the time. You only have to read on here about people who live with their 'DPs' have children with them but secretly want to be married. These men see partners and children as disposable items.
I agree with expat's posts.

*This thread

IonaNE, I am RC (and I go to Mass) and yes, what the priest said seemed to go against what the RC Church says, but his point was that marriage is not to be entered into for the wrong reasons, and desiring to have sex is one of them (fear is another, and YY to being in love with the idea of love).

He had encountered people who were simply unsuited to marriage, not ready for lifelong commitment, who were prepared to walk down the aisle purely because of 'the rules' as they understood them -- they were prepared to jump whatever hurdle the Church placed before them in order to achieve their aim, without giving serious thought to how they would be able to live together in sickness and in health, for richer, for poorer, for better, for worse, til death do us part. They did not have a mature understanding of the nature of marriage as the RC church understands it. My priest friend was speaking up in his own way for the sanctity of marriage, for respect for all of its aspects, and saying it is not just the next obvious thing to do before you turn 25 once you have found someone you fancy.

There is a lot of group mentality where sacraments go in Ireland First Communion, Confirmation, are done through school, children are herded through the classes with perhaps little understanding or sense of commitment, and I think my priest friend saw his share of people approaching marriage with the same mindset this is what people do so let's do it..

Reformed church is a more Calvinist church than the CofE. It arose from a merger of Reformed Presbyterian, and Congregational denominations and possibly a few more. If religion is important to your DD I suggest you try to engage with her about her beliefs and that aspect of her life. It seems to me that you find her quite alien, and maybe this is hurting her, having the effect of seeking out kindred spirits on her part? It is a pity to not know about this important aspect of her life or to go about your life as if none of this matters to you, if it is important to her. It is not as if she has joined the Moonies.

Marriage prep courses do tend to be good and I hope she and her BF will go to one where they can explore their communication styles and get to the bottom of their hopes and fears.

I'd be worried (among other things) that if their marriage breaks up then part of the money you spent on her flat would go to him.

But presumably you took account of this kind of risk before giving her the flat money, and as the flat and mortgage is hers it's up to her whether to seek legal/financial protection for the money, eg a pre-nup about shares of the flat in the event of divorce.

Honestly who are you to judge whether they have 'spark'. Me and my DH have all our 'sparky' times alone, and definitely not infront of my parents as he was terrified of coming across badly to them and didn't fully relax.

Let her get on with it and support her decisions, she is an adult, I have many happily married friends who got married before 25

You sound so much like my parents and clueless about what your dd likes or wants. My parents were just the same and I will never be like that with my own.

We had also been married a few years at her age. We had had a mortgage 3years (no parental help) and I had lived on my own for 5 years. It is crazy how people act like people in their 20s are children.

I think you are acting as judge on what is right for your adult daughter.
In my opinion this is absolutely not your place and is likely to damage your relationship with her.
There is an arrogance in thinking you are better at making decisions on her life than she is. Maybe you could try counselling to help you to deal with your feelings around the situation and to support you?

I think it is unfair to suggest that the OP is acting as judge and jury -- if she was she would have not come on here and would have told her DD what to do or communicated her displeasure.

I see MN as an opportunity to think aloud and churn through ideas and opinions quickly so that you can make informed decisions in real life.

The OP is concerned for her DD, but has not thrown her out, given her a piece of her own mind. She has just sought advice in a neutral place.

I am sure she is comforted by all of the posts as she can see all points of view and she will be able to narrow down what are her key concerns.

The OP comes across to me as a very supportive but concerned parent who wants to preserve her already brilliant relationship with her child.

I am not in this situation but some of the PP on this thread have shown that all that matters is that as a parent you are there to pick up the pieces if it goes wrong and share in their joy if it goes right.

I can see why you're concerned. It is very young to get married. It's considerably younger than average and no amount of posters coming on and citing their own happy playground romance changes that. The divorce stats for under 25s are worse too.

But I don't think there's much you can or should do to prevent it. It doesn't matter that she's at odds with societal norms if her church group consider this to be normal and desirable.

It would worry my intensely that she wants to marry to be "sorted" and it's possible she doesn't know what it is that makes other people marry. The problem is of course that many older people also marry for the same (bad) reason and place more emphasis on the institution than the individual.

Honestly I think the most pragmatic approach is to make sure she knows that divorce is an option, that broken engagements are actually quite common and not shameful - and to protect the flat if it's not too late to do that.

Thanks again all for your input. I know some feel I am judging, not supporting or being too controlling while others completely share my concerns. I guess that shows that it is so dependent on the way your family, social group and culture is. I do accept DD doesn't have to fit the mould but my concerns of it not feeling right for her remain.
We have celebrated with DD and she did have a little wobble to me this morning. She says it is what they've discussed and the right thing for them but she is scared as it is a big commitment and so different from her friends and family beyond church. She is worried about his career. I reassured her to trust her instincts and think about it but ultimately she knows what is right for HER, not the people around her and as long as she is sure of her choices and happy then we are happy.
I guess all I can say is every family is different and there are all types of 22 year olds. Whether it is right for her also has factors which come into it other than the little bubble of her and her fiance. Your social support is vital and while we have our fears we (contrary to what I may have portrayed on here) are a close, supportive family who like to celebrate and have always been receptive and welcoming of her different views. She is not an outsider as it may appear on this thread and all my DC have their differences which are accepted in our family, but with a common sense hat on which means at times we all need a bit of an 'are you sure?' moment (including me!).
It is hard to understand and support something which is so different or seemingly sudden. But the comments on here have helped me realise ultimately I need to trust my DD, guide her with positivity and reassurance rather than criticism. I hope she feels nothing but love and goodwill from us and I'm sure we can enjoy wedding planning.

I've been married 14.5 years and yob is above! We all take risks in life, there is no guarantee of anything, it might not work out perhaps they will split up but then any of us could divorce really. Who knows what the future holds? Your own dh might run off with a 25 year old

Previous ex-husbdand of mine did run off with someone not far off 25 tobysmum so I hope you enjoyed that comment...
Perhaps I am so cautious because I know how painful it can be so I want my DD to be as confident in her choices as she can be.
We have to take risks in life but I think well-thought through choices help these things.

I married my husband without living together, staying overnight or indeed ever having sex with him. In fact neither of us had sex with anyone before getting married. My brother lived with his partner and got married soon after us. We have been married for over 30 happy years, he was divorced within a year.

Just because we waited didn't mean there wasn't passion or a spark either. I can assure you that there was, just not one I would ever have told my mum about.

I was also very young by today's standards - almost 21, but knew that we would have a great marriage and we have.

To add to our irresponsible attitude, we dated for 3 months and were engaged for 3 months before getting married, although we were friends before the dating.

Its not about enjoying anything all I meant was, we can all say how long we've been married but no one can predict it is forever. Sorry that happened to you though . But on the flip side, you can't protect dd from getting hurt married or not.

FWIW some of the shortest marriages I've known are the early/ mid 30s 'its the time NOW to get married body clock ticking' age.

I can really relate to her and the pressure you can feel being in a young Christian relationship in that sort of church (if it's in Cambridge I probably also know the church). Many of my friends married very young (I married at 22 having been with my husband 6 years and living together).

I remember one friend, about to get married, who asked me how my husband and I would resolve an argument as they'd never had one...

So, I would recommend asking her to consider a few questions: how well do they resolve arguments (have they even had any), how would he feel if she finds she wants to return to work after having a baby, what would their Christmas traditions be e.g. What presents does Santa bring (very telling as to how willing each side is to compromise!) With some of my friends this has made them consider how ready they are for marriage.

I would also strongly recommend she attends a marriage course at her church as that would really help with their expectations of married life.

I agree we are in our 30s now and there are already people getting divorced who have only been married 5 minutes! When people get to 30 a lot just have the tendency to have children with anyone without considering the implications.

Anna, I was wondering if I knew the church if it is there too! (I'm not aware of any Christmas engagements amongst our students yet though!)

Hopefully, any decent marriage prep would cover those issues that Anna has suggested but it certainly doesn't hurt for her and her fiancé to start proactively thinking through these issues on their own.

(By the by, I also find it very weird when I'm told by (thankfully, only very few) friends that they've never had an argument. It doesn't make me wonder about what really goes on!)

Will he support her career goals and for her to work after DC if it's financially necessary and/or she wishes to do so when the time comes?

I agree completely with the question of 'how do they resolve arguments?'

Does either one of them or do both argue to 'win'? Can they argue constructively? Can they both realise when things are getting heated or when they are getting too invested in their own pov, and step back? Can they both say sorry and mean it? Do they shy away from conflict or confrontation? You should try to find out from your DD if they have ever had a major disagreement, or if they have argued much. No arguments is not good.

I don't think you should bring up living together at all as it sounds like that is completely out of the question due to their shared beliefs.

A great idea on this thread is having at least a couple of holidays together. Could you offer to financially contribute to this as an engagement gift? A poster above has linked to a Christian holiday tour company and they wouldn't need to share a room. If you let DD know that going would make you significantly less anxious about her marriage, would that be helpful?

Marriage preparation classes also sounds like a good strategy.

I think the most worrying and unresolvable part of your situation is that he has no job. Why is he planning marriage before getting this sorted? A responsible position might be to not set a wedding date until he has a stable job. That doesn't mean not being engaged or not planning to be married in roughly a year.

If nothing else, you should insist on getting the legal situation sorted re the house you are helping to finance.

I hope it all works out for your DD.