Think DD has just destroyed relationship with DH her dad. Final straw.

[Facefacts]

After a long rocky period with DD 17, I thought things were getting better. Again, tonight, DD determined to get her own way. Wanted boyfriend to come over we said no as I had to be away all day and overnight, husband had to leave later as working away. So after I left mid afternoon she has massive argument with poor DH who is already having counselling (partly from previous rocky period as well as other things). She is so unsympathetic and uncaring and verbally very attacking. DH in pieces, DD just continued attack. And flounced off to boyfriends saying would be back for 11. Just arriving back now. Refused lift back and DH couldn't face scene if just went to fetch her. He now has two hour drive and has to be up early. He's broken and I'm fuming with her. She has a brilliant social life. Saw boyfriend 2 or 3 times in week. Nightclub Friday and friend stayed over Saturday. Don't know how this is going to go but we have been on edge of throwing her out before for stunts like this. Is this what we have to do to save DH from total breakdown. When she decides she is doing something there is no compromise, no care of the impact on others. It seems the more understanding and caring we are the more she takes. Someone please give me a plan to change this before she throws away a lovely home and family.

As for 'this is a parenting issue' Fucksake! If you've not experienced this please don't spout simplistic pronouncements like this.

Kids are NOT innocent little doves with worries/can't help it. Some are, of course , but an awful lot are not.

The majority of parents scrape the cupboard bare with researching any potential worries/can't help its. We go through every possibility, examine ourselves and our parenting in forensic detail. Guess what, kids are playing up a lot of the time.

Kids are hard work. And I think finding the balance between love, respect and discipline is very hard. With my kids, I try to explain my actions - give them the reasons behind my decisions. Show understanding for their opinion/want but if I disagree, I try to do it respectfully. To me a 17 year old is still a child and needs guidance.

I think you need to establish mutual respect. Stop giving her stuff, she can get a job and earn her own money, but throwing out a 17 year old is not acceptable.

I really don't understand when people say ""but she is almost an adult and you have to respect her space"

IMO, adults have a right to that space and that freedom when they are paying for the roof over their heads, and even so, they have to be respectful of the people they live with, the fact that they are young and stroppy doesn't mean the people around then have to put up with their behaviour.

so what if they have nowhere to go if you kick them out??? That would make them appreciate what they have and convince them to accept that if they want that warm place to go to, they need to be considerate in exchange.

lucy I agree.

I finally lost the last shred of respect I had for my father when he said to me when I was 17 that just because he agrees to something this week doesn't mean he'll agree to the same thing, in the same circumstances, next week - he said he was in charge and he made the decisions.

It was all about control for him - but the fact I can remember it so clearly over 25 years later) indicates exactly how significant it was.

Getting so angry and abusive that she broke down a door is not okay. Just because the person doing it is a 17 year old "child" doesn't change that.

It might be difficult to throw your DD out now given her schooling etc, but I think you need to make it clear that that is where her behaviour is heading. No more facilitating her social life by giving lifts or doing her favours unless she can live in the house without violence.

If she can't curb her abusive behaviour then you need to get some distance and involve social services to find her somewhere to go. You are not doing her any favours by teaching her this behaviour has no consequences.

I think the issue here is that at 17 its unreasonable to both ban her from having her bf over, AND from going out!

Maybe you need to look at how you parent her in general. Why do you buy her so much and do what she asks most of the time? She doesn't seem to have any respect for you.
I don't see why you needed her to stay in just because you were going out. A bit weird. But her breaking things is not on. If she deliberately breaks things in the house that's criminal damage and you should call the police.

She is 17. And there's something ruthless about 17. It's old enough to be a grown-up, to make life decisions, to take risks. However, other adult faculties like empathy, emotional control aren't fully developed. I'm no expert, but I understand that there are some suggestions from the neurological community that this combination may be due to changes in the brain between the ages of about 15 and 22.

I realise this doesn't help much! So some advice:

1. I think your DH urgently needs help in shoring up his parenting. He's clearly in a bit of a delicate state at the moment. Can you get him into assertiveness training, or get him some books on assertiveness to read? He needs to realise that there is a middle ground of firm and fair, without needing to be aggressive or a pushover.

1. I definitely don't think you should throw her out - she's still a kid, and it could do enormous harm to her long term prospects. Instead, I wonder whether you can adapt some of the techniques that are used with very young children, of having more positive one-to-one attention and showing of love when behaviour is bad. I know this might seem like it's 'rewarding' bad behaviour, but it could also be seen as inviting your daughter to see you as a person, as an adult. Essentially, the root causes of her acting out may be the same as for a toddler: a need for validation and love. Rather than making this about control and a butting up of your orders and her wishes, you could make it more about negotiation, with a bit of give on both sides.

Skullyton said the issue was that at 17 it is unreasonable to stop her having her bf over, and from going out.

Why? When I did I miss the memo that parents have no say over what goes on in their own house and over their own children who are legally not yet adults? This boyfriend has been in the picture for one week and the daughter has already seen him a couple of times this week.

As for those of who saying the parents should just walk away and not let things escalate, you clearly aren't reading the OP's postings that they do precisely this, the daughter follows them, has stopped them leaving the room, continued verbally abusing them as they try to walk away and has broken things, including doors. The latter takes some strength.

I agree with previous poster who said I don't think a lot of the responses would be same if this was a 17-year old boy behaving this way.

At the same time, I do agree that by giving in so often you have probably helped foster this situation to a degree although this is not the behaviour of a typical teenager because I certainly didn't behave like this at 17 and nor, to the best of my knowledge, did my friends.

of course they have a say what goes on in their own house, they don't have the right to tell a 17yo they can't go out though.

I think the OP's dd has shown a certain lack of thinking though, i would just have waited til both parents had left and done what i wanted to anyway!

If they want to prevent their Dad from going out, they need to have clear, effective consequences for non-compliance and be present to enforce them.

At the moment, it sounds as if the consequences of non-compliance are being told how much she's upset her parents, who are not actually there, so they expect her to remain alone in an empty house.
I can understand her frustration - what difference does it make to her parents whether she's home or not? They're not there!

This sounds like a really difficult situation, OP. I don't really think anyone, based on the information here, can tell you with any sort of confidence that you've done things wrong in your parenting, that your daughter is a monster, etc.

Just to add my (probably irrelevant, hopefully not offensive) 2 bits though, I grew up in a household with a parent who was very emotionally fragile, which created a situation where someone who was ostensibly (or considered himself) 'weak' actually exerted total control over everyone's actions and behaviour. It was not his fault, mind - but we were all required to live according to what he could or couldn't tolerate given his mental state. I responded with total compliance; my brother rebelled, did what he liked, and on the outside looked like he really couldn't give a shit. My brother is possibly the happier person these days, whereas I live with constant guilt & shame about not being able to rescue my chronically depressed dad - which I felt was (/feel is/feel certain he believes is) my responsibility and at extreme moments my fault.

Your situation is no doubt entirely different from mine - but this is just to say that it doesn't all go one way; it won't just be your dd's moods and behaviour affecting dh, his will be affecting her, too. However fragile he is, something he is doing is pushing her buttons too (you mention it's her relationship with him, not you, that may be broken forever). It's possible part of her rage may be a refusal to parent her parent as she might (rightly or wrongly) feel she is being expected to do.

A final note - you seem angry on dh's behalf rather than your own - how is this for you? What's your relationship with dd like, aside from her effect on your dh? If there's any way you think you could get dd and dh to go for family therapy with you, I think that may be really helpful, to unpick some of the ways you're winding one another up, and to give you an opportunity to express some of how you're feeling - which I suspect may be getting lost in the fray.

I really feel for you and I hope that you all find a way forward. x

i agree with hesterton and maryz.

I'm very sorry to hear about the problems you're having, OP...and at the same time, I would really, really need to hear your daughter's version of events before I could say anything useful.

I say this because you should have heard the way my father talked about me when I was 17. He also tried to kick me out because I was such a nightmare, so insolent, so impossible, so horrendous, so disrespectful, so absolutely impossible to put up with. Really, if you heard him talk, I'd sound three times worse than your daughter and he was such a martyr for having to put up with someone as irredeemably terrible as I was.

From my perspective? I was a very dedicated, slightly swottish straight A student, didn't do drugs, smoke or have sex (worse I did was drink cider in the park), was an active member of the Scouting Movement and working towards my Silver Duke of Edinburgh while studying hard for my A levels. I was, however, still 17, which meant that yes, I sometimes got a bit mouthy or moody. Dad was abusive, and on hearing, "Yeah, Dad, whatever", would decide I had committed an act of absolute unforgivable insolence against the great clan patriarch, and would escalate every minor incident into a massive screaming match which usually ended in my being slapped, kicked, punched, called every name under the sun, and possibly hit with a flying hardback book.

But it was all my fault because I was such a nightmare. And he wondered why I would be constantly on edge at him.

I'm not accusing you or your husband of abusing your daughter. I'm simply saying that I have heard this kind of tone from parents before and there was just so, so much more to the story that it's just impossible to make any calls on this one unless we hear from your daughter as well...which is unlikely to happen.

You do seem to have a bit of a martyred tone about you, which may well be understandable...but if you're using this with your daughter, don't expect it to work. Teenagers don't care that their parents feel martyred and hard done by. They are self centred and self obsessed, and in a funny way they actually have to be. They have only a limited amount of emotional maturity and it's best they use it in self reflection to try to navigate the world and mature.

You really shouldn't expect too much of them.

I think it's contradictory here that people see her still as a 'child' and putting it down to teenage behaviour but at the same time saying she's and 'adult' and should be able to do what she wants.

Her behaviour is completely unacceptable , she is violent and abusive. That shouldn't be tolerated at all. And she simply can't have her way all the time as well. She's still living under her parents roof and needs to respect that. But she hasn't learnt respect judging her actions so she shouldn't demand anything.

Is her mother involved in this? Can she not take her?

There have been threads previously where posters have admitted they were horrendous to DPs/ DM/ DF as teens - then grew out of it. and have no idea why they acted that way.

YOur DD sounds like one of these - fighting against life though no idea why she needs to.

I would remove anything of value in teh house and put it in storage, put a good lock on your bedroom door. Try to sit her down and say you will be there for her when she wants you but at the moment you are just going to get on with your own lives. She will need to earn money for taxis etc to get about, she can't rely on you.

And get on with your lives (and pretend it doesn't upset you even if it does). Allow her to fail at school, assume she will bring bfs back to the house (hence stuff in storage/ locks) and leave her to it. She will surface eventually, hopefully without too much trauma meanwhile.

Obviously if she ever appears to agree to counselling/ calls a truce then take her up on it.

What Sheba says ^^ re the tone of your posts, OP. Like her, I am not accusing you or your dh of abuse, but the tone of your posts stirs something in me as a veteran of highly controlling, emotionally abusive and manipulative parents.

It's not a 17yo's job to be responsible for the emotional well-being of her parents, nor to curtail her activities willingly (for that is what you want from her, a show of willing consideration) not for any real danger but simply for their 'peace of mind'. I feel for your dh, but it's not OK for his issues to overshadow his dd's life. Both of you need to adult up, tbh - take responsibility for enforcing boundaries on acceptable behaviour within your home, but also for your own emotional stability. I am not surprised that she clearly finds it hard to respect you.

KeepOnMoving, welcome to the contradictory nature of the teen years. You have the right to do certain adult things but you have yet to develop the full emotional maturity about them. That's why it's so difficult. It is contradictory indeed. But you have to do things and experience them before you can be adult and mature about them, so it's the only system we've got. It's like the first time you go for a drive after passing your test. You're inexperienced, yes, but how else are you going to change that?

I'm intrigued by BipBipadotta's post, in which her whole family had to live by what her father could or couldn't tolerate. When you are a parent, you simply can't expect your children to make all these allowances for you. Despite the proprietorial 'my house' 'my rules' 'my kids' attitude that so many parents have, the fact is the kids didn't ask to be born.

I think Bip could be on to something

It's not a 17yo's job to be responsible for the emotional well-being of her parents

Bang on.

I think you are expecting rather a lot. When you start making decisions for yourselves you don't always get it right! She possibly was at the bf, having such a nice time, she had every intention of making it home before 11 but she's not yet mature enough to absolutely make that happen.

I think at 17, the relationship living at home starts to become more flat mates like, it's on the path towards that.

It's strange for you to give her control, because well if you organised it it would turn out better. But then you've had more practise! Think of it like allowing a child to get their own breakfast. So much easier to get it for them yourself. It would be at the right time of day, the milk will be put back in the fridge....but no you let them have control. And breathe. It takes you twice as long to clean up. But it is better in the long run.

The most I'd have said was oh just remember we won't be able to give you a lift back.

She is a fledgling, pick her up when she falls, comfort her, try not to say I told you so but allow her to make mistakes.

I'm sorry but making your 17 year old, no matter how fucky she might be, responsible for the emotional and mental wellbeing of her adult parents is not ok.

Whatever happened that she knows about with your dh, she shouldn't be expected to shoulder the responsibility for that.

You didn't want her boyfriend over, fine. But come on the emotional blackmail is out of order.

I'm confused surely a father would taken a more stern approach with DD. By breaking down shows hes weak and she will attack more. Hes needs to get a backbone as do you. This is why she is getting away with this behaviour, you've enabled her. As for drinking on friday nights shes underage? How long have you allowed her to go out drinking for? I know kids will be go out drinking but i question how long have you allowed her to do this? By being relaxed on other stuff and strict on other stuff sends mixed messages.

I'm.....surprised at those saying that this is normal or typical 17yo behaviour.

I would never in a million YEARS have behaved the way the OP describes when I was that age. Neither would my siblings, or any of my friends.

The mind boggles at what some people think of as 'normal' teenage behaviour.

It may not be acceptable for a teenager to be responsible for their parents' emotional wellbeing, but they can damn well be mindful of respecting it. As they should be mindful of every other person on the planet.

I don't know if it's normal teenage behaviour.

If I'd pulled stunts like this my parents would have done things to send MN into meltdown!

But it sounds like she's an adult half the time then a kid the other. Pick one and stick with it!