Think DD has just destroyed relationship with DH her dad. Final straw.

[Facefacts]

After a long rocky period with DD 17, I thought things were getting better. Again, tonight, DD determined to get her own way. Wanted boyfriend to come over we said no as I had to be away all day and overnight, husband had to leave later as working away. So after I left mid afternoon she has massive argument with poor DH who is already having counselling (partly from previous rocky period as well as other things). She is so unsympathetic and uncaring and verbally very attacking. DH in pieces, DD just continued attack. And flounced off to boyfriends saying would be back for 11. Just arriving back now. Refused lift back and DH couldn't face scene if just went to fetch her. He now has two hour drive and has to be up early. He's broken and I'm fuming with her. She has a brilliant social life. Saw boyfriend 2 or 3 times in week. Nightclub Friday and friend stayed over Saturday. Don't know how this is going to go but we have been on edge of throwing her out before for stunts like this. Is this what we have to do to save DH from total breakdown. When she decides she is doing something there is no compromise, no care of the impact on others. It seems the more understanding and caring we are the more she takes. Someone please give me a plan to change this before she throws away a lovely home and family.

That sounds awfully like victim blaming: "If the OPs DD's behaviour has had such an impact on the the OP's DH's mental health, then it is his responsiblity to seek support for that." He was supposed to prepare for last night's attack, was he?

It's not victim blaming. Children are not responsible for their parents' emotional wellbeing.

OP - You need to make her understand that this is your house and you get to decide who stays and who goes. She either treats you with respect acts like a member of your family or fucks off and sees how she likes living rough on the streets and turning tricks to feed herself.

Are you for real? It might be the OPs house but it is the DD's home, not a fucking military regime. You would seriously want your 17 year old prostituting herself and living rough because THE WHOLE FAMILY is struggling with things?

I have read it all now.

Liz, indeed!

It never fails to amaze me how many parents think parenting teenagers is about point scoring and face saving rather than keeping kids safe and preparing them for independence.

Its sounds like the problem is you and dh not dd. shes 17 fgs.

The one thing that strikes me is the you are trying to be Mum and Dad and be in control and things, but you are both going away overnight and leaving your house and your daughter unprotected. That's not consistent with the protective "parent" behaviour that you are trying to show. Perhaps her bad behaviour is partly a response to your absence?

Phil I had thought of PDA, too. The violence, the anger and the lack of empathy could all indicate something like that.

"Children are not responsible for their parents' emotional wellbeing"

This is a 17 year old young woman, not a child. Whilst she's not responsible for making sure her parents are mentally healthy, she does have a responsibility to behave respectfully in the home and not to bully them.

Bullying parents is very, very common. You seem to be implying that it's the parents' lookout if they're being bullied.

All of this IS victim blaming. The OP's daughter is behaving in a way that's causing them both distress and they are being blamed for the way they react to it.

I get it op

I've PMed you.

Absolutely Sheba.

The "show 'em who's boss" mentality really baffles me.

Victim blaming? Why? Because I believe that a parent with a mental health problem has a responsibility to seek help, in order for them to be the best parent they can be?

Children who are expected to moderate their behaviour to accomodate their parents illness are recognised as vulnerable and requiring additional support, themselves - provided in many areas by Young Carers services.

The OP's DH is suffering from PTSD - that is something that affects the whole family, and he, and each family member should be receiving tailored support.
Expecting the DC to accomodate her Dads limitions, while he does nothing to help himself, is not good parenting.

By "children", I don't mean very young and small people. I mean the offspring of parents. And no, it is not their responsibility to make every allowance and live their lives around their parents' preferences.

As for 'bullying', that's ridiculous. She's flouncing off in a huff and being mouthy. No fun, I'm sure, but a grown man should be able to rise above teenagery shit like that and the mother should not be rending her garments and bewailing how sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child. The daughter is not responsible for her parents' mental wellbeing. They're the parents. She's the child (in the sense that she's their daughter). Of course it's their responsibility not to take teenage tantrums personally.

When I was 17 I was a nightmare of epic proportions. I had a boyfriend who my parents weren't keen on and then jacked him in to (secretly) start sleeping with an unsuitable man 15 years older than me. I would stay out all night, be a petulant twat, drink too much, not write enough essays. Me and my Dad clashed horribly and would have screaming rows. He once shouted at me and I threw a bottle of wine at him. It missed narrowly, hit the wall and my mum slapped me. It was like something out of Jeremy Kyle despite having previously been a perfectly nice kid. I remember thinking I would probably leave home and never speak to my Dad again because we couldn't be in the same room without screaming at one another for about 18 months.

I didn't fail my A Levels, went to uni, regained my niceness. It was just a rebellious and terrible phase. 15 years on and me and my Dad have a really good relationship. It was just a shitty phase. I was a selfish dickhead who was just finding my own way.

About five years ago a colleague went through all this with his daughter at 17. She ended up leaving home to live with her unsuitable boyfriend and actually didn't speak to her parents for a year or so. She's back in their lives and they all get on well now. Some girls just hit a really demonic phase at that age, I think.

Yes Liz, I am for real I am sat here wondering if you people who say a teenager bullying her parents is "a very minor issue" and parents should just leave to avoid conflict so she can do whatever the hell she likes are for real. That certainly is NOT what families I know would do in RL.

There is no way any teenager who behaves this way would continue to live in any family I know in RL They would be shown the door a long time before their behaviour escalates to the point where they are breaking doors and hurling abuse at parents - possibly a major reason why they would not think of doing it.

OP & her DH need to shock this girl into considering the consequences of her actions and telling her that this is her last chance if she wants to stay in this comfortable home with her parents is not too extreme a strategy imho.

PrettyBrightFireflies is absolutely right. If you have a mental health problem then you can expect support from friends, partners, parents and so on....but ultimately only you yourself can take yourself to professionals to try to manage the condition, and you cannot expect that level of emotional maturity and support from your children. You're the parent, you should be seeking help to equip you to do THAT job.

I don't think a teen's behaviour to an adult can be described as "bullying" for the simple reason that this is a situation of complete asymmetry with regard to power. The adult has all of it, the child none. Yes, the teen can still be absolutely horrible emotionally. But at the end of the day, most of the authority structures in the household are one way. That, actually, may be the problem at the heart of this.

I'm not saying that this makes it easy. I'm not saying that the DD's behaviour is remotely OK. I am saying that we need another paradigm other than 'bullying' is needed to describe and think about it. There is no straightforward 'victim' in this complicated emotional situation - and there is no 'bully'. There are people trying their best who need to negotiate a new set of rules based on what's right for them. Stripping out that nuance helps no-one.

"As for 'bullying', that's ridiculous. She's flouncing off in a huff and being mouthy. "

Read OP's posts again. Yes, this is bullying:

verbally very attacking. DH in pieces, DD just continued attack.

pattern here of us saying no to something, she throws massive strop, breaks things, to try and get us to give in. Only other option is to say yes to everything she asks, however inconvenient to us.

He did walk away and stayed calm. She followed him, carried on, broke door.

end up on the verge of a panic attack when she verbally lays in to me and won't stop. And won't let you walk away. Will follow you. Try to stop you leaving room.

"this is a situation of complete asymmetry with regard to power. The adult has all of it, the child none."

Oh yes, it is obvious that OP has all the power in this relationship and her DD has none

She is a teenager. The breaking the door - not acceptable, at all. Everything else? Normal teenage behaviour. Is it pleasant, fair or constant? No. The comment about she needs to decide whether she's going to be a child or an adult is ridiculous; that's exactly what being a teenager is all about.

It sounds like she is really struggling with a lot of things; lashing out at the people she cares most for, avoiding schoolwork, needing to restart the year, wanting to make you hurt... That screams that she needs help and support. No, she won't want to let you help her. No, you won't even feel like she deserves your support right now, but that is when she needs it the most.

Having a teenager is awful, but don't you remember being a teenager? That was pretty freaking awful too. Get your husband some support, get her some support, and stop with the consideration to throw her out, or you will be the one destroying the relationship.

Exactly what CoteDAzur said. Of course it's bullying.

Cote

The DD has been coping with an emotionally unstable father who is suffering from PTSD. That can't be a walk in the park. But she dares act out and she's out on her ear and should SELL HER BODY FOR SEX?

We have no idea what "broke a door" means. The OPs DH is already unwell, so we don't know what "abusive" means in that situation either. No its not ideal, but this behaviour is unlikely to be organic, and is most probably a reaction to the environment that the parents have provided.

Does the whole train of thought that children act out with the people they trust the most suddenly become void at a certain age? What is it? 12? 13? After that it is bullying and abuse and we wash our hands of our children?

If she was going to be left alone then surely she could have had him over without you guys knowing? If so maybe she is trying to get a reaction out of you guys. So am I right in thinking DH was meant to go out but ended up not going because she went out? I think he should have gone anyway. Of course her behaviour isn't acceptable but remember it's not personal! So please don't take it personally. I would have gone out anyway, then the next day decide what you're going to do. Grounding obviously isn't working if she's going to do it anyway, so pick something she can't fight against. Don't give her money for clubbing one night, take her phone for a few days etc.

Joseph, you don't think children can bully parents? Really?

OP - I have been there - called the police and involved school on son when he became violent. ... was the best thing I ever did - for him - he is now back to his old charming self.

There were boundaries that we personally as parents were not able to enforce with him - he didnt care what the consequences or sanctions that we put in place were - but once he crossed a line into criminal acts - thumping me, smashing up my home - I had to recognise it was not my failure as a parent to manage this - it was bigger than us and it had now moved into a space where outside help was needed.

One thing I learnt on here with regard to teenagers was to watch their actions and ignore their words .... and this has really helped me to not engage and enrage and escalate the verbal bluster - just make clear your expectations and the consequences and then dissociate and walk away.

You have made progress - this is just a blip - and in fact continue to do so - if you ignore the verbal bluster your daughter did what she was told ... she came home without the boyfriend. Take strength from this.

Physical damage to your home is a line clearly crossed which if she is not responding to you needs other agencies involved for your daughters sake as well as yours - this is how I looked at it when I called the police on my son.

I have 4 teens - the others have bumbled through puberty - my son was a nighmare - but at 17 has come out the other side. I wish you well.

Yep, that's right. I don't think it's bullying, because I don't think you can bully a person who is omnipotent in your life. What you can do is to lash out against that degree of control that someone has over you and to try to batter it down - but that's not bullying, it's resistance.

I think teens can be all shades of obnoxious. I just don't think the terminology of bullying is the right one for the particular dynamics of control at work here.