Think DD has just destroyed relationship with DH her dad. Final straw.

[Facefacts]

After a long rocky period with DD 17, I thought things were getting better. Again, tonight, DD determined to get her own way. Wanted boyfriend to come over we said no as I had to be away all day and overnight, husband had to leave later as working away. So after I left mid afternoon she has massive argument with poor DH who is already having counselling (partly from previous rocky period as well as other things). She is so unsympathetic and uncaring and verbally very attacking. DH in pieces, DD just continued attack. And flounced off to boyfriends saying would be back for 11. Just arriving back now. Refused lift back and DH couldn't face scene if just went to fetch her. He now has two hour drive and has to be up early. He's broken and I'm fuming with her. She has a brilliant social life. Saw boyfriend 2 or 3 times in week. Nightclub Friday and friend stayed over Saturday. Don't know how this is going to go but we have been on edge of throwing her out before for stunts like this. Is this what we have to do to save DH from total breakdown. When she decides she is doing something there is no compromise, no care of the impact on others. It seems the more understanding and caring we are the more she takes. Someone please give me a plan to change this before she throws away a lovely home and family.

Italian, do you know, I absolutely knew you were going to seize on that question and complain about it. It was so obvious. And I don't care, because it was a fair question, not rhetorical, not facetious, and not at all cruel in the light of how OP has been presenting her daughter for the last 22 pages.

She has said almost nothing kind or nice about her daughter. We have not heard anything along the lines of, "She's a good kid really, and we love her to bits, but we do have problems when she does XYZ." When OP did throw a scrap, it was attributed to her parenting. Causing PTSD (ffs), being selfish, being impossible, being 'attacking' and 'verbally abusive'...all that was on the daughter's head. When the daughter does talk to her, she is dismissed as emotionally manipulative and attention seeking. And I am the cruel one for posing the question? The question that, in the light of all this demonising, I am quite sure her daughter is also asking? Can we please focus on what's important here?

My own father certainly didn't love me for a long time, despite how much he loved playing the stricken, suffering parent. I hardly believe my experience is unique in humanity. When you love someone, you don't judge them by their worst moments, as blythe said, and you don't keep a ledger of everything you do for them with the intention of cashing it in later. Especially when you're the parent, and your JOB is to do more for them because you're raising them.

blythe has consistently made brilliant posts, as have Pretty, Liz, mathanxiety and several others. Family counselling could certainly be a solution to the issue here. But as I said before, it will work only if OP and her husband honestly approach it as a two-way conversation - not just a means of airing their feelings, but also a means of the daughter airing hers, and having them actually be listened to and validated. Doesn't mean they have to agree with everything she says. But they need to give her perspective as much respect as they give their own, and try to understand why she feels the way she does, even if they think she has drawn the wrong conclusions. They have to stop othering her and make her feel honestly accepted as an equal, respected member of the family team, who is not responsible for their marriage or managing their mental health.

If they are prepared to do that, this could be a solution.

I do think teenagers are hugely misunderstood.

They're annoying and self centred and exasperating, but that's what happens when you've got just 17 or so years of life experience behind you, and not much by way of rights in personal autonomy. They need love and boundaries and validation. It is daft to expect a 17 year old to have the emotional maturity of a 25 year old, and it is simply unfair to expect a child to sign up for a lifetime of managing a parent's mental health, especially when the child exists only because the parent signed up to it.

If you're 17, you've got a good excuse for being self centred. If you're 45...

Sheba I totally get that you had a very bad time with your parents and I am very sorry about that.

However, I am also not at all bothered that I picked up on your comment or that you knew I would. I have tried to explain that if you wish to influence the OP that constantly making unpleasant comments will not get through to her, IMHO, and I feel that question (if it were genuine) could have been phrased a lot better.

You said Causing PTSD do you mean the OP's daughter? The Op has not said her dd caused her husband's condition.

I am not trying to defend the OP, I am trying to explain if you want to influence her you might be going about it the wrong way. You could easily ask what she does love or appreciate about her dd, instead of assuming she does not. When one comes on a forum to post about 'issues' one can sometimes feel so overwhelmed with the 'issue' that the social niceties go out the window, it does not mean love goes out the window too.

If she really did not care why would she plough through all these comments and even start the thread in the first place?

Anyway, I am off to bed, I am very sad that there is so much judgement for someone looking for help.

Italian, there may have been moments when we let our frustration get the better of us; if that was me, I for one apologise. However, on the whole, the OP has been giving us a great deal of information, over this long thread and another thread,so there is a firm basis for many the impressions that are being formed - it can never be more than this, and only in response to what we're told.

Mumsnet is supposed to be a place where posters are sympathised with and then pleasantly, when necessary, encouraged to get a grip, all the the purposes of helping each other to be better, happier parents. In this instance, the understanding that the OP has lost all sight of a healthy perspective is essential if she is to foster emotional health amongst family members. It doesn't seem gratuitously cruel to say 'it doesn't sound like you like this girl, which is going to be a massive obstacle to your parenting successfully', after 22 pages of hearing her strengths minimised and every flaw repetitively dwelt upon. In fact that is probably the sort of thing she started this thread to hear. Either way, it was always going to be necessary to disagree rather vehemently with the OP because the views she is expressing are coming from a dysfunctional place that will be making a fragile family, and child, worse.

Posters are responding strongly because the parental attitudes towards this child are rather shocking. I care about that and if the OP is requesting advice, I'm not afraid to speak to put in my tuppence worth frankly. Who knows, it might make a tiny bit off difference to them. She may not stay to listen, but if we hadn't ploughed ahead on the off-chance something would go in, she would have heard even less. The problems seemed to be causing so much pain that it was worth taking a risk rather than pussy footing around.

Must sleep

I cannot for a second feel I would be more sensitive to this than the OP, so if I feel this she must too

Why? Why do you think that the OP shares your degree of sensitivity?
It's clear from the comments on this thread that different people can tolerate different degrees of blunt speaking.
No one has been rude, or personally attacking on this thread.

You are projecting your own feelings onto the OP.

If she really did not care why would she plough through all these comments and even start the thread in the first place?*

From the way the thread has gone I would suggest that she hoped for some insight as to how to make her daughter just do as she was told, and to put her father first.

Sadly there isnt any advice that is going to offer that solution. The young lady is getting to the age where she deserves autonomy over her life, and many posters have suggested ways that the parent-child relationship can develop into a healthier adult-young adult relationship.

The father's PTSD is a side issue, because he is not taking responsibility for it, or having realistic expectations of how life is when you cannot control other peoples feelings or needs, especially as they approach adulthood. He is threatening and accusatory in his attitude, and rather than place the responsibility for his own state of mind with him, focus has been switched to the rest of the family to not upset him. Having lived through a similar circumstance as that described by OP, it CAN cause alot of distress - we lived through 2 years of it before an answer was found, but I dont know how long the process took for OP. My partner has Aspergers. He does not live with us, but he does understand enough to know that although he found the behaviour very challenging and uncomfortable for him, it wasnt the fault of the children. He removed himself from the situation if it got too much, rather than try to impose impossible expectations on people. OP's husband doesnt seem willing to explore whether he too may have ASD. And no one seems to have taken on board that if the situation was so traumatic that it caused this much stress in an adult, it was also going to be hugely dysfunctional and distressing for a sibling, who had to deal with her father breaking down on top of the original situation. No wonder she started acting out, she was only a little kid, even at 12, just a kid.

I have read your posts but not all of everyone else's responses.

What strikes me is how little you seem to empathise with your DD, how much you want her to fit your mould. You want to 'teach' her not to behave in a certain way and you talk about her as if she was an annoying tantruming toddler, not a grown up 17 year old. You want her to get help. I might get flamed for this but in a way don't you think it's because it would make it easier for you to have a label for a condition? Here she's just mirroring back to you what you don't want to see. Even in the thread title she is being blamed for her dad's breakdown. Even the 'positive' sounds dismissive (not got herself pregnant etc). You recognise your Dh has PTSD but likely your DD suffered a lot too and that doesn't seem to be acknowledged at all. Family therapy might help if ALL concerned go, but trying to get her to go only probably suggests to her that only she is the problem and that is being reinforced by the way she's being talked to at home.

My advice here is: listen carefully to yourself here, listen to how you speak to her. I bet you say things in ways that sound blamey. Maybe not overtly but she will pick it up, sense the resentment towards her that's oozing from every single one of your posts.

I'm not surprised she's slamming doors. Not acceptable of course but she might be at her wits' ends being treated like this. Sick of walking on eggshells all the time too.

You want advice. I think she needs a break from you all. In a positive way, not in a let's kick you out we can't handle you anymore kind of way. And maybe you could get a break from her, see how you really function as a couple. Isn't there a way she could spend time with a relative for a few weeks?

By the way, it's a bit late to 'teach' her anything. She's 17. I hope for her sake she can leave home soon, and find peace and empathy elsewhere.

Italian, I have taken great care not to be rude or aggressive towards the OP. Believe me, I have been sorely tempted.

Personally I don't consistently speak about people I love in the way she has described her daughter for the last few days. If she does love her daughter, she can easily answer the question. You are trying to blame me for the OP's refusal to change, much as the OP is trying to blame her daughter for that same refusal. Please stop.

If the OP really, truly loves her daughter and wants to resolve this situation within her family, she will take on board the many excellent strategies and attitude changes suggested to her over 22 pages. I don't have the power to stop her doing that. I'm an anonymous internet stranger named for a line in the opening song in Chicago.

This is what I mean by taking responsibility and ownership of the situation. 17-year-olds and anonymous lovers of alliteration in musicals are not as powerful as you think they are. Perhaps the world would be a better place if they were.

Italian I also think it may be helpful for the OP to realise how she's coming across and reflect that back to her. A litany of criticisms, unbalanced by any words of admiration or love, has given most posters the impression that the OP doesn't like or love her DD-and if anything, she seems like the parent most likely to do so. What if the DD is under the same impression? Surely the OP would wish to remedy that?

When you post here, you know you're signing up to hear what others really think, not what they think you want to hear. It's a tough, 'you'll thank me for this one day' kind of help but far more likely to make a positive difference for the OP than sympathetic clucking noises.

I've been away from this for a while but I agree with some of what blythe says above - there does seem to be a particular tone to OP's posts that may indicate part of what is going on at home that she is unable to see. If it is getting people's backs up on an anonymous internet forum, it is likely to be having a much magnified effect in RL. To ignore this is possibly to do the OP a disservice.

It's easy to see others' behaviour and recognise how they manipulate us; it's not so easy to see our own behaviour and recognise how we manipulate others. That's where we need other people to tell it to us straight, if we're really hoping to do our bit to change a troubling interpersonal dynamic.

It's almost always unpleasant to hear, and can feel very shaming, but if someone can be open to it and find a way to act on what they learn about themselves, it can make all the difference.

I think the most important thing people have said here is that seeking professional help for the whole family is very important. A good therapist who listens well and communicates creatively can demonstrate in person the listening skills the whole family needs to work on.

Blythe fair points. And A litany of criticisms, unbalanced by any words of admiration or love, has given most posters the impression that the OP doesn't like or love her DD-and if anything, she seems like the parent most likely to do so. What if the DD is under the same impression? Surely the OP would wish to remedy that? Yes, good point but I was commenting on the way things had been said, not that people held opinions but how they were expressed.

Pretty I am indeed a very sensitive person but the idea that I would be more sensitive to the OP's situation than she is, is very strange to me. I am afraid I do strongly disagree with the statement No one has been rude, or personally attacking on this thread. I think they have. But obviously I am just a very sensitive person!

Re You are projecting your own feelings onto the OP. Yes, I admit that. She has my sympathy. I have been blamed for my dd's bad behaviour, told if I was stricter she would not be 'the way she is'! It's utter crap and very unhelpful.

I feel some posters are projecting their own experiences onto the OP's DD. The difference here is that I am not condoning everything. I am trying to be balanced. I feel some posters are not giving the OP any of the benefit of the doubt, they are mistrusting her words.

Nettle you have made some valid points.

Sheba I am not blaming you, I was commenting on what you said, and you yourself you were not surprised I had!

I am going to take a break from this thread, I feel that I am not helping the OP by arguing with everyone and.... maybe much to others surprise .... my only interest is to help the OP! Who in turn, I hope, will help her dd and wider family.

Italian...

As you criticised posters for how they expressed themselves, you accused people of "digs" and "judgment" and "being unpleasant" and berated me for asking the OP if she loves or likes her daughter, given how nastily she consistently speaks of her. The general consensus in response is that this is unfair of you, and that everyone has expressed themselves inappropriately. The OP, it seems, simply does not wish to hear anything that challenges her view that the onus is on her teenage daughter to adapt and change and handle the equilibrium of herself and her husband.

If you really want to help her as you claim, you must see that nothing but endless sympathy and head nodding isn't useful, because if her current approach was working, she wouldn't have started this discussion. It looks to me, though, that what you really want is what she wants - validation of your own feelings. If this is consistently not forthcoming, perhaps both you and OP would like to consider whether there is a reason.

You actually come over to me of trying in a strange way to defend the OP by trying to focus the discussion on berating people who don't tiptoe around her rather than suggesting she take a look at why her daughter might feel as she does and how she could take some control rather than acting so helpless. That might be wrong of me, but it's how you seem.

You admit to projecting your own feelings on to the OP, yet criticise others when you think they are projecting theirs on to the daughter. Sorry, but if you're allowed to sympathise with the person you identify with, expect the rest of us to do the same. And certainly expect people to imagine that the adult parents would take on a greater role in managing their own marriage/mental health/parenting strategies than their 17-year-old.

The mother has had her say in this thread. Her daughter has not. So don't be surprised or offended when those of us who have been that daughter, or close to that daughter, attempt to put her perspective across.

In light of all this, no...I was not surprised that you berated me. And I still haven't had an answer to that question. I doubt the daughter has either.

Face,

Sympathy, here, at some stages in the past Ds was distinctly unpleasant at home. As was I in my teens too. Caused mainly by unhappiness and insecurity in both our cases.

For Ds it did improve when I recognised that DH was manipulative, as DS had been telling me. And I chose which battles to pick. And I told him how good he looked, praised him for normal stuff, and told him often how much I loved him.

It sounds as though, whether consciously or not your DH is depressed and is again consciously or not being manipulative. And just his depression , your concern for him and your other child will be making her feel, whether or not you intend this ( and I'm sure you dont) the left out one and insecure. It then starts a vicious circle where she doesn't work at school, etc and you are piggy in the middle.

Whether or not she or others are on the AS spectrum, , there is some excellent advice, Google it, on how to cope with AS style arguments. In brief, don't. They just persist. DH who is AS does, DS who is v slightly does, and like your DD continues to follow me arguing. V wearing. Especially when combined with near physical threatening.

I think people have offered excellent suggestions but I'm going to make another couple. .

One, cherish yourself. Regular small bits of pleasure for you, eg a nice bath, half an hour to read a book, laughing with a friend, going to see an exhibition, will help you. You will be more energised, find balance, relax, and that will help everyone.

Two, The next stage is to take your DD with you. Go and get a pedicure together. Tell her what nice feet she has. If she wants vile nail polish, let her have it! Consult her on yours and go along with her suggestion.

If she doesn't want to come, say "Shame, it would have been good to go with you, " and leave it at that. . when you go back say what a nice time you had but it would have been more fun if she had been there. Then think about whether there is something that you've never done, prob quite minor, that she could be part of. Eg , " I've always wanted to go skating but my friends would laugh at me, will you come? " Or "I've always wanted to learn how to make pasta, will you come? " Or, "I need new jeans, will you come and tell me what looks good on me?" And point out afterwards how much you appreciated her coming. Find stuff to laugh about with her. Be the one who needs her advice. Catch her being good, as they used to say.

We still have rows on these occasions but DS said recently, " even though we had some disagreements, we still had a good time, didn't we?" Which I regard as triumph.

But most of all, make time for you. . PM me if you want.

even though we had some disagreements, we still had a good time, didn't we?

Families should say this much more often!

Oh Blythe

I had not intended to come back so soon but I saw your post Sheba. I just wanted to say I am very sorry if what is said came across as that I berated you. I had not intended that to come across angrily. I am very sorry if I offended you. I know that it is not possible to control how people will perceive what is said, either what you said or what I said. But knowing you perceived my comments as berating I wanted to make it clear this was not how it was intended. My intention was to defend the OP, not to attack you, so if it came across that way, I am really sorry.

I simply do not wish to 'argue' any more, whatever the consensus is on here, my aim was to help to OP, I shared my own story honestly, and I hope I can be of help to the OP. And, as I say, I cannot control how I am perceived by others but I do want to assure you that upsetting or angering people was not my intention.

Themodernuriahheep excellent post. I love the idea of having a pedicure with a dd. I wish there was a feet icon! I think the idea of saying "If she doesn't want to come, say "Shame, it would have been good to go with you, " and leave it at that. . when you go back say what a nice time you had but it would have been more fun if she had been there." Is totally inspired.

Facefacts bless you, and your family, I hope things get better.

Goodnight all.

I've reported the spammer.