Think DD has just destroyed relationship with DH her dad. Final straw.

[Facefacts]

After a long rocky period with DD 17, I thought things were getting better. Again, tonight, DD determined to get her own way. Wanted boyfriend to come over we said no as I had to be away all day and overnight, husband had to leave later as working away. So after I left mid afternoon she has massive argument with poor DH who is already having counselling (partly from previous rocky period as well as other things). She is so unsympathetic and uncaring and verbally very attacking. DH in pieces, DD just continued attack. And flounced off to boyfriends saying would be back for 11. Just arriving back now. Refused lift back and DH couldn't face scene if just went to fetch her. He now has two hour drive and has to be up early. He's broken and I'm fuming with her. She has a brilliant social life. Saw boyfriend 2 or 3 times in week. Nightclub Friday and friend stayed over Saturday. Don't know how this is going to go but we have been on edge of throwing her out before for stunts like this. Is this what we have to do to save DH from total breakdown. When she decides she is doing something there is no compromise, no care of the impact on others. It seems the more understanding and caring we are the more she takes. Someone please give me a plan to change this before she throws away a lovely home and family.

Its not 'odd' to hugely struggle with conflict and to be strongly emotionally affected by it. It's not 'odd' for a pattern of abusive behaviour over a long period of time to utterly wear someone down. Just because you might be able to walk away, ignore it etc doesn't mean OPs DH can. When someone follows you around shouting at you in your own home it's not 'odd' to be deeply affected.

So DH waited for his 17 year old daughter to be safely home before he left for the night - in what way is that not responsible and good parenting??

Some really odd responses on this thread OP. I really think she should be finding her own place if she cannot control herself and behave civilly.

It isn't the worst thing. As I said there is a background here. She has done similar things since 14 onwards. DH not broken over this but because the lack of care shown over last few years (except when she wants something and is quite nice). He is in a poor state because of something else that happened that she knows about, but is quite happy to lay in to him anyway see he is upset and not care. She does the same to me but I am (marginally) more together although end up on the verge of a panic attack when she verbally lays in to me and won't stop. And won't let you walk away. Will follow you. Try to stop you leaving room.
Thought she was getting better but was it genuine or just to get her own way, buy the things she wants etc? I think it is the feeling of being manipulated all the time that does it tbh.

So DH shouldn't leave for the night until DD is safely home. But DD should be finding her own place.

Contradictory.

Can you ask her to move out OP? It may be the only way to really salvage a decent relationship with her, even if it feels counter intuitive to begin with.

I agree with PP, it is absolutely not odd that her behaviour is having this effect on you.

I agree with Epilepsyhelp that there are some odd replies on here.

Either people have had such incredibly difficult things to deal with they cannot see this situation as difficult or they have had not struggled with a really selfish, and at time perhaps emotionally 'vacant' person! A person who makes a great deal of life about them and takes no one else's feelings into consideration at all. Such people can be utterly draining. When meeting such people at work or in the normal situations of life it is frustrating but one gets on with it and goes home. If that person is actually already in your home it must be awful. If I were married to a person who followed me around the house shouting at me and broke a door I expect I would be seeking some sort of assistance to moderate their behaviour or leave! When it is one's own child who does it, somehow it is meant to be OK. Of course it is not OK. Maybe she needs some anger management. In your shoes i would not throw her out before she is 18 but I would give her some sort of ultimatum for counselling or something that made it clear once she was an adult I would not tolerate this behaviour. easier said than done.

I sense OP is not telling us all and that this behaviour has gone on for so long it has worn everyone down. Also the only reason the behaviour may not be worse is because the OP and her DH give in to the 'child' all the time. I certainly know what that feels like. It's all very well to say one person is an adult and one a child, but she is one year or less off being an adult and not all the adults she meets will be as tolerant of her behaviour as the OP is (I am guessing other adults get much nicer treatment from her for that exact reason).

The Op's dd needs to know there are limits on what people will accept. The fact she is studying and not on drugs (if true) is still not excuse to behave really badly.

UpTheRoadToday it is not contradictory to say that when someone is under your roof you feel responsible for them. When I travelled the world my mum and dad had no idea when time I got in, if at all, but they did not worry. When I lived at home, no mater how old, or stayed with them, they expected to know when I would be back. Parents are not flat mates to be treated any old how!

Uptheroad If your child was awol after stomping out the house, would you not stay around to make sure they arrived home safely?

Finding her own place is a longer term solution for the atmosphere at home. The immediate situation and concern for her parents was no doubt that she was awol late at night, especially as a lone female. Parents can't turn their concerns and worries for their children off.

I really don't get this. As I said, I completely understand why they said no to the boyfriend saying over. And verbal aggression is never acceptable. But why have they told her she has to stay in tonight? That's just inflammatory and controlling.

Sounds like she needs some help with anger management. I think a lot of the time that anger is triggered by fear/being scared.

Did anything traumatic happen to her when she was younger that could be acting as a deep underlying fear? Because sometimes people get angry/lash out like that when they are very scared. So I agree with a PP that the boyfriend thing when you are away could be to do with being scared to be there without an adult.

By any chance, are you and your DH the type that go very quiet/introverted/run away when you are scared? Some people find that more terrifying than someone shouting/being in their face (especially if their underlying fear is fear of abandonment).

So it could be an unwitting vicious circle- (something happens to scare her, e.g. both parents going to be away for the night), she scares you by shouting, you withdraw, she gets more scared, shouts more, you get more scared, withdraw more etc. so maybe if she gets angry like that do something to make her less cared, to show her that you're not withdrawing from her. E.g. give her a cuddle, tell it's ok to be scared, ask what is scaring her, can you help her be less scared.

DH and I used to go into a vicious circle like that when we first got married and fought, and then we worked out we were both really scaring the other one (my family is very passionate and fights, all gesticulation and shouting, but then we realise what the problem is and are all hugs and laughter 20 minutes later, his family avoid conflict at all costs, never talk about things, walk away- we drove one another loopy at first).

Agree with a PP that if this was really about seeing the boyfriend, she just wouldn't have asked and would have gone out/invited him round after you'd both left.

I proceed as if it was genuine and try to get to the bottom of a) what upsets her this time and b) why generally she behaves like that by talking to her about it, but away from the time of the fight. If you get absolutely nowhere with that, then maybe it's manipulation, or maybe it's just teenage self-obsession.

The mixture of replies here reflects my own conflict about how to deal. We've tried some of what is suggested and as I say things seemed to be getting better. So soul destroying. Wish she would go to counselling. When I have got her to talk there have been a lot of issues that talking to someone outside family would help with. She won't. Although informal talks with good people at school make a noticeable difference in attitude for a few weeks. Schoolwork has been off. She has had to restart year. Was really difficult to arrange and in danger of messing this up too. doesn't help that she spends more time socialising than at school so doesn't have time to do homework. Has been getting better at this though. Does have part time job which did help her mature a bit.
Will have proper read through suggestions I'm morning.
Wish she didn't keep doing these things. I want her to be a likeable person and she is making it so hard.

Uptheroad Not once did the OP say she told her daughter to stay in. Not once. She was asked to stay home for their peace of mind, and she usually enjoys a good social life aided by her parents with lifts etc so is not deprived. It's not controlling, it's give and take, part of being a family and considering each other's feelings.

Hope you find a peaceful resolution Facefacts

Facefacts maybe counselling is too strong a word and scares your dd off, would some sort of 'mediation' help? Maybe school can facilitate? Talking to a third party not involved can give you both a chance to see what is reasonable and what is not.

It can be beneficial for your dd because if she feels you are totally out of touch etc you could persuade her that this will enable you to see what 'normal'/'other' teens are allowed to do etc or what is expected of them. The mediator will point out (I would hope) if/when you are unreasonable, but also if/when she is.

Perhaps as she moves to adulthood she needs to know that some things will be conditional, not lifts late at night - this could just result in potential harm to her or more worry from you, but maybe daytime lifts, or favours, or loans, or buying extra items she wants or feels she needs.

Yesterday my daughter pissed me off so much I stopped talking to her! It was nearly 9.00 pm so very much bedtime! My mum did this to me on occasion when I was young and I hated it. I never thought I would do it. But sometimes they just push your buttons to the limit. The next day I was quite reluctant to start talking to her again. But she came and apologised to me and we talked about it calmly. I am not sure I would ever recommend it as a bargaining tool but it was essential for me as I was in danger of saying something really rude and mean to her! I fully recognise this was my inability to deal with the situation! But we were staying in a hotel and could not get away from each other even to a different room and I did what I felt was right.

Good luck, OP.

I guess I'm going to swim upstream, but I think that if any member of a household will not treat the other members with respect at all times that person needs to leave. You can argue and disagree and still be respectful. Your daughter sounds like she's either a spoilt madam or has MH issues. If the former, a dose of the real world may very well make her appreciate a nice home. If the latter, you need to see about getting her help.

But no one (Isn't 17 considered an adult in the UK?) should be allowed to ride roughshod over the feelings of another person nor the rules of the household.

I also wonder what some poster's responses would be if this was a young man. Smashing things, following his father around haranguing him, verbally laying into his mother, stopping his parents from leaving a room. Would you all say to (basically) stop 'overreacting'?

OK, asked her to stay in.

I am still struggling to see the need for that. Put yourself in 17-yr-old shoes. You get told your new boyfriend can't stay (perfectly reasonable, although your 17-yr-old self may not see it quite like that), then you get asked to stay in for your parents' peace of mind. You decline their request to stay in because it a) you are already pissed off, b) it was just a request, c) you want to see the boyfriend, d) neither parent is actually going to be around and e) all in all visiting the boyfriend is infinitely more attractive than a night at home on your own.

Then your Dad refuses to leave for work until you return, thereby escalating the relatively minor issue that a 17-yr-old went out, and creating a degree of drama that was really not necessary.

Yes, there is a backstory, and yes she has a lot to learn. But the OP says is was getting better. There is a lot to be said for picking your battles. It seems to me, going only by what the OP has posted, that this was an unwise battle to engage in. Why not just let her get on with visiting the boyfriend and come home on the bus? Seems a reasonable thing for a 17-yr-old to do and the current drama would have been averted.

Parents do 'kick out' their children at 17 but I am imagining things would be quite dire for this to happen.

[https://www.childline.org.uk/Talk/AskSam/Family/Moving/Pages/17-and-kicked-out.aspx]]

and the government has responsibilities for those under 18.

www.gov.uk/your-rights-to-housing-if-youre-under-18

I think Marz speaks a lot of sense, about disengaging from the drama, but I also wonder if your daughter will allow you to disengage.

I really do not know but in your shoes I would really want to speak to a professional, even if it were just you and your dh and them and work out a strategy. I would not throw any child of mine out or ask them to leave but once compulsory education had ended I would be talking to them (or in anticipation of compulsory education ending) about what was going to be next, how it would be funded and where they would live. It sounds like your dd doesn't respect you very much, and I would want to address that. But do beware and take advice, things like stopping her allowance may lead to shoplifting or more aggression, I would want to take advice on this.

I would really see if you can write some sort of agreement, she lives there and you pay for food etc and allowance etc and you expect this minimum standard of behaviour in return.

My dd is 11 and this is all new to me, which is why I am saying seek professional help. But in the meantime you could read....

www.teenswithproblems.com/home_contract.html

www.freeprintablebehaviorcharts.com/behavior_contracts.htm

There are tons on line, it is all very American. I don't think it is unreasonable if you are providing her with all her needs for her work and study that she should not be obliged to extend a small amount of consideration to you both.

But, before you go off the deep end, so to speak, you have said things were working better. Try and find out first why things have gone backwards, try and be neutral for now on the punishments etc and just get to the bottom of it. Is she being bullied, bullied on line, treated badly by previous or current boyfriend, friend worries, study worries, drugs?

Must go to bed, all the best.

I'm puzzled to hell here. So basically what I'm reading is neither of you know how to parent a teenager?

The teenager you're talking about would have nodded and smiled sweetly, then had her boyfriend over when you were both gone for the whole night and shagged him in your bed leaving the bed unmade the next day. You've got a kid who you expect to be sensitive for both your troubles and 'do the right thing' 'hollow laugh' have you any idea where a brain that age is in its rewiring stage? Brains that age don't give a toss about their parents feelings. But despite the argument, she came home because it's ingrained. Christ my 16 yr old picked a fight with me about batteries in the queue in b&m yesterday and I actually engaged for about 2 whole minutes!! Until I realised that I'm the adult and refused to argue.

You need, both of you something to help you through the teen years. I'm the first to say tough love on here but to be frank it's you both who needs to be trained.

You've indulged your child and now you're reaping the reward.

UpTheRoadToday you can explain away this one incident as much as you like, IMHO you are missing the big picture. The only reason (probably) that this kind of thing does not happen much more often, if I have read things right, is because the Op and her husband are so cowed by her behaviour as to not oppose her very often!

If I am wrong, OP, please tell me.

I would also be talking to professionals about mental health issues, in case. But my guess is (unless she is following others around, haranguing them and breaking doors) that this behaviour is reserved for family. Which may well mean it is not mental health but behavioural issues.

ImtheChristmasCarcass Re Isn't 17 considered an adult in the UK? No, they are not, 18 is the age at which one becomes an adult in the UK.

gamerchick of course you are entitled to your opinion but your comments sound to me very unsupportive and Mumsnet is about support.

Maryz I bow to your knowledge on this one in terms of what would happen if one did 'kick' their child out. Although , of course, some parents do kick their kids out. I don't think that these parents will. But some do and because the kids would rather be away from the family home than in it, they do stay away. It is incredibly sad. I watched a documentary on social services where the social workers were saying that a 15 year old with no where to stay would need to sleep on a park bench. I am not at all defending it but just saying that some parents do do it.

I would go for the working through it together route rather than asking anyone to leave. But there will come a point one day when the parents can legitimately ask their child to leave.

As you are entitled to yours. This is a parenting thing not a kicking out thing because a couple of parents have lost their way. This should have been nipped in the bud years ago.