Think DD has just destroyed relationship with DH her dad. Final straw.

[Facefacts]

After a long rocky period with DD 17, I thought things were getting better. Again, tonight, DD determined to get her own way. Wanted boyfriend to come over we said no as I had to be away all day and overnight, husband had to leave later as working away. So after I left mid afternoon she has massive argument with poor DH who is already having counselling (partly from previous rocky period as well as other things). She is so unsympathetic and uncaring and verbally very attacking. DH in pieces, DD just continued attack. And flounced off to boyfriends saying would be back for 11. Just arriving back now. Refused lift back and DH couldn't face scene if just went to fetch her. He now has two hour drive and has to be up early. He's broken and I'm fuming with her. She has a brilliant social life. Saw boyfriend 2 or 3 times in week. Nightclub Friday and friend stayed over Saturday. Don't know how this is going to go but we have been on edge of throwing her out before for stunts like this. Is this what we have to do to save DH from total breakdown. When she decides she is doing something there is no compromise, no care of the impact on others. It seems the more understanding and caring we are the more she takes. Someone please give me a plan to change this before she throws away a lovely home and family.

Your DD sounds similar to DSis at that age, she was a bit of a handful but did grow out of it. I think you need to pick which battles to fight and concentrate on making sure she knows she can talk to you if she has any problems. It sounds like your DH is really struggling and I'd be looking at how you can support him with his own resilience and mental health rather than concentrating solely on DD. 17 is still young IMO, she should grow out of it soon but needs some stability at home to fall back on. Throwing her out would be a huge overreaction and wouldn't help her at all.

Maryz I agree you can't make children (or adults) empathetic. But maybe one can try and make them act within boundaries.

I am not sure that there is enough information here to say whether things are blown out of proportion or not, IMHO. On Mumsnet we always see just a snap shot of people's lives. Plus we only know what we ourselves could cope with, not what others can cope with.

Anyway, some good advice here and I hope the OP will find some help/strength whatever is needed.

Must go to bed, night all ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

gamershicj thank you, I don't think they will kick her out, Maryz seems to think it is very hard to do. Let's agree to differ (as mum to a child with some behavioural issues I've had years of people telling me how they would be stricter and it was not until we were talking to CAMHS that one relative realised it was not as straight forward as she had thought) but thank you we can agree to differ.

ooppse, typo, gamerchick .... night all.

OP I completely get where your coming from and I do know how hard it is.

You and your poor husband sound like you've reached the end of what you can cope with anymore with your daughter and that isn't surprising and please don't ever blame or doubt yourselves as parents,you sound like you've done amazingly coping for this long.Lots of parents wouldn't,I know 13 year old children that have been kicked out of the home by they're parents and they had nothing like what you have going on with they're children.

We've been having similar with our 12 year old DD for a good few years now,she's now willing to speak to someone who can help now Thank God.I know how stressful it is,it's nearly torn our marriage and family apart in the past and we have 5DC.

I know you said your daughter won't talk to anyone but I wondered if you and your DH knew that there were people that you could both talk to?They can be of a great support and can offer lots of practical techniques and help that can you use.

It's very similar to when you have a couple that are struggling within they're relationship and one wants help but the other person in the relationship doesn't want to talk to an outsider or isn't sure,places like Relate can see one person from the relationship and can offer them self help techniques and can be a safe sounding board.It's the same kind of idea with the places that help the parents when they're having struggles with teens and the teen doesn't want to be involved with the process.

Here's a few links,I hope something there helps.
www.helpguide.org/articles/teen-issues/helping-troubled-teens.htm

www.youngminds.org.uk/for_parents/parent_helpline?gclid=CPTq87rdyMkCFYoBwwod5PINcw

www.catch-22.org.uk/expertise/young-people-and-families/families-enquiries/?gclid=CK-sl8XdyMkCFWXnwgodHogC4w

www.familylives.org.uk/advice/teenagers/

www.nhs.uk/Livewell/family-health/Pages/teen-aggression-and-arguments.aspx

If I can think of any others I will let you know.

I've worked with some of the teenagers that had to leave they're homes and our 2 oldest DS's are friends with some teenagers that's familys are going through the same right now and we've had some of the teens stay with us(not one's I worked with one's we know well)to support the children and it gave the parents a break now and again and stopped the children from going onto the streets.

I kind of agree with Gamerchick. The two of you need to grow some balls. If you are not getting help with whatever issue you have that makes you so vulnerable to your DD then you need to get it and fast.

You know she won't agree to suggestions about counselling, so if you want things to change the two of you are going to have to up your game, get to the bottom of how this happens, and find new ways to deal with it.

Very easy to categorise as 'typical teenage behaviour' but it is not always the case. My brother and his wife were put through hell by there daughter from the age of 13 and she didn't just grow out of it.
Very bright and we'll behaved in her childhood years but turned into an absolute monster to the point that she physically attacked my brother on more than one occasion and he was scared to leave her alone in the same room as his wife.
Never wanted for anything but she's an absolute mess now in her early twenties.
Her sister is the absolute opposite. Imo if they show no sign of regret or guilt and you continually submit to there demands you're leaving yourselves open to the possibility of many years of misery and disappointment.
Stick to your guns. Your house. Your rules.

To be fair if she is still in education and she was out very late at a nightclub on Friday then at a friend's all night on SaturdAy, I'd be asking her to stay in on Sunday night too. She would have to be up for school/ college the next day and when is she supposed to fit in her homework?

DH sounds fragile and your response to your daughter, which does seem OTT, seems to be partly out of a feeling of protection towards him. What has caused him to be like this? Was DD affected by whatever happened? Do you think she feels that your attention is diverted from her? Is she attention seeking to try to regain your attention even if not in a good way?

Do you have mother/daughter time, just the two of you, time when she can just chat and be, and maybe confide in you about what's worrying her?

A lot of the stuff you describe sounds fairly normal - as a PP said, their brains rewire at that age, but does she feel she can come to you with a problem? I would be most concerned at her disengagement from school and need to repeat the year if she is very bright.

Maybe she is seeking attention from boyfriend, other friends because she feels she doesn't get it from you. I'm not saying that she's right by the way, but it maybe how she feels. Buying her stuff when she asks isn't the same as giving her loving attention, which she may feel is being reserved for DH.

You are her parents. Please don't throw her out! It's a rite of passage I'm afraid, to be a complete and utter ass as a teenager. Your love for her should not be conditional.

By all means try to lay some boundaries. But do not leave the poor child homeles, just because she's being a typical teenager.

Her breaking things and not allowing you to leave a room and following you to carrying on shouting has to stop.

That kind of behaviour, teenager or not is not acceptable.

I cant offer much advice and DD is 9 and not NT but to give a little hope my cousins son was like this at similar age until about 20. Had her tearing hair out and unable to cope. Suddenly at about 21 he just calmed right down and became lovely and considerate. Have heard others say it on here too. It can pass. Not saying you shouldnt do anything to address it but hang on in there

"You've got a kid who you expect to be sensitive for both your troubles and 'do the right thing' 'hollow laugh' have you any idea where a brain that age is in its rewiring stage? Brains that age don't give a toss about their parents feelings. "

This is a ludicrous overgeneralisation.

so we can have a stress free night, not worrying about her or having our evening disrupted by visitors and giving lifts

I don't think this relationship is totally broken because - well she argued and flounced. At her age I would have said nothing but welcomed the bf and probably a few other friends in because I had the place to myself.

This has not even occurred to you, so there is some trust there.

Could you make plans for all of you ahead of time? A work colleague has a rule that once a week they have a family meal with everyone there and everyone has to be in the house overnight.

She has older teens from a previous marriage and younger ones from present relationship so sometimes the older ones are at bf/gf or with dad.

She will negotiate on anything else but not this one rule and it seems to work (well for her family not for everyone else's).

I really don't understand the having to make her stay in so you can go out. Sounds utterly controlling. You should think yourself lucky that she didn't pretend to be ok with you going out and her staying in so she could sneak her bf round.

Don't make mountains out of molehills.

Facefacts I have a 17 year old; they're not easy are they!
In your shoes, I would go and see one of her personal tutors at 6th form college. You don't need to tell her that you're going, you don't need to ask her permission. Go for a confidential meeting and request support through the college. She doesn't need to know that you instigated it, but they should be able to offer her some counselling/social skills sessions. They will have noticed that her homework is behind & should be as keen to resolve her issues as you are.
Good Luck

I haven't read the whole thread, just your post as I didn't want to prejudice my response...but my reaction to your post is that your DD is being a normal 17 year old, in fact, on the mild side of normal.

I can understand her point re her BF. She's 17.

Her behaviour isn't going to destroy a relationship and if it does there is something seriously wrong.

But I am deeply concerned that she seems to be getting the blame for your DH's mental health problems. She is not to blame. He needs to take responsibility for his own well being and stop putting that burden on your 17 year old child.

I haven't read all the answers, but my Dd2 has been like this since puberty at 11. Only now am I realising (7 years on) that she is bi polar most likely and seeking help for her. Her behavoiur towards me is outrageous and I have concluded that at this point she can't help it and is utterly incapable of stopping once she starts. I am only sharing this to give you a different perspective because for years I read outrageous teen threads and thought she would grow out of it. I would imagine that if any of us had a mental weakness she would utterly ignore it once she was on one too.

No real help from me but a ray of hope. My dd was similar boyfriend staying at 17 when I had said he couldn't, following me around shouting, wilful, nasty, exhausting. iI learnt to pick my battles and keep my head down whilst mourning the loss of my beautiful little girl. It passed now (25) she is absolutely gorgeous kind, caring, hard working I couldn't ask for more. I do think your dh needs to step back and learn to care less for a little while that's what worked for me. And I am sorry but you need to put her needs first, above dh, she is 17 please, please don't throw her out she needs you.

Maryz that is not true at all. I had to evict my DS at age 17 due to a long string of very risky, illegal behaviours that were putting other people in the house at risk.

He was rehoused by the local authority, given a support worker to help him find education/training, apply for benefits etc.

With cuts to funding it may be more difficult and kids may be in temp B&B accommodation for a while, however those under 18 are always a priority, especially girls since they are more at risk from being on the street.

OP the only thing I'd say is that if you do have to go down the route, eventually, of evicting her, you need to say that you just don't want her living there, rather than that she has failed to follow house rules. If it's a rule breaking situation then she'll be deemed as making herself intentionally homeless and will not be a priority for help.

You say she broke a door during last night's argument? How did that happen?

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There are orgs like Nightstop that house yp with host families while Nightstop get accommodation sorted. I host for them and it can be a wake-up call to yp who are playing up at home.

I understand you have been to hell and back with your kid/s, Maryz, but there's no way it is 'odd' to be brought to the brink of breakdown when our kids play up like this. Maybe you've come so far you've forgotten - I don't say that unkindly (having been through boiling hell with my kids myself - the early days look tame in comparison, when they were in fact horrific).

yy choose your battles [interpretation: be prepared to lose 9/10ths of them]. This is a major learning curve on its own. We are effectively terrorised in our own homes and that takes some getting used to - if we do indeed choose to get used to it.

If she is smashing up stuff in the home, ie the fabric of the home, then call the police. calm down, I'm not talking about prosecution but a visit and a word from the police can do wonders though not always .

You have my heartfelt sympathy, op

Your DD has not demonstrated that she can be trusted to be mature and sensible.
Unfortunately, that means she needs to be treated in a way that a younger child would be - that probably means not planning on leaving her home alone, or expecting her to demonstrate care and consideration for others.

Parenting is tough and in your DDs case, it sounds as if the reasonable expectations you have of her because of her age are unrealistic for her.
She is being set up to fail and that may be one of the reasons for her anger and apparent unhappiness.

It struck me that you say 9 times put of 10 you do what she asks. Which sort of explains why she digs her heels in on the 10th occasion when you disagree with her. Experience tells her that you will give in, if she sticks to her guns and forces the issue...and the whole thing blows up when you actually argue back.
You can't change her behaviour, only how you react to it. You and your DH need to sit down and decide on the rules you want to run your home by, and the techniques which give you a degree of emotional protection. Family counselling for you all could be really useful, as might finding a local parenting course to boost your confidence and give you some fresh ideas.
And pick your battles, it sounds like the "no BF" battle was worth fighting, but the "stay home" one became counterproductive and actually caused you both more stress than necessary (it certainly didn't give you anymore peace of mind).
Good luck.