I'm turning into one of THOSE posters...

[0verNow]

...with multiple threads asking for advice about the same situation.

I'm trying to decide whether to end my marriage. I'm not looking for different advice from previous threads, but two of my other threads had to be deleted because DH found them, and the other is now quite long and things have moved on a bit - so I thought it might be better to start a new thread.

In summary, DH and I have been together for 10 years, married for 4 years and have 3 DCs.

There have been three issues in our marriage.

1. Right from the early days of our relationship, DH has been low-level EA. The kind of 'death by a thousand cuts' EA that sounds petty on paper but grinds your love to dust. This is the issue that brought us to counselling in the first place. DH is adamant that he wasn't deliberately abusive, just thoughtless and entitled and self-centred.

Since we started counselling, two more issues have emerged, each much more damaging (in my opinion) than the first.

2. Financial abuse. (I'm the poster whose DH spent £16k on counselling and lied to me about it.) I just didn't see it - in fact, DH had me convinced that I was crap with money. I'm still kicking myself that I was so blind.

3. DH's lies. He has lied about small things, and (at least) two enormous things (that I know of). I think lying is his default setting whenever it's more convenient than telling the truth.

Of these, 2 is largely resolved going forward. I have separated my finances from his, and although I still don't have access to our historic savings DH has offered to add me to all of his accounts.

1 is tricky. DH has been treating me well for 3 months now. I'd be interested to hear whether people think this is a new, improved DH - or just the old one on best behaviour, in which case he's likely to revert to type when he starts to relax.

But 3 is the big one for me. I don't know that I can get passed it.

There is one event which I'm particularly struggling with. It happened in 2007, and DH has lied and lied and lied to me about it. He was even still lying about it after counselling started. He has now given me 4 different versions of what happened, each one painting him in steadily worse light. The last version, which only came out last week because our counsellor forced the position, involved him covering up behaviour at work which was gross misconduct at best, and possibly criminal.

DH says that it all happened more than 8 years ago, and that living through the consequences of his 2007 behaviour has fundamentally changed him as a person.

But from my perspective, it's not 8 years old, it's all new to me. And it's not just the event from 8 years ago, it's the lies he's been telling me ever since. And I'm not at all convinced that he has changed as a person - given the ongoing lies, big and small.

I don't trust him. I still don't know if I've got to the truth about what happened in 2007. I don't know if there are other things still to discover.

If I'd known the truth 8 years ago, I would have left him. I'm very clear about that. But we didn't have DCs 8 years ago, and now we do (DC1 was conceived in the immediate aftermath).

I'm also very clear that I would not be with him now were it not for the DCs.

Am I being unreasonable to end my marriage over something that happened 8 years ago? Will my DCs hate me for splitting up their home?

I just want to do what's for the best, primarily for the DCs but also for myself.

The DCs don't have phones. They're 8, 5 and 4.

You're right that I shouldn't have told DC1 that I took blame; he took me by surprise. I'm bending over backwards to not badmouth STBXH and reassure DC1 that it's not his fault in any way, and I bent too far.

To be clear, I haven't initiated a single conversation with the DCs. I'm not playing games with them, just minimise opportunities for STBXH to manipulate them.

I'm running absolutely everything past my solicitor. Unfortunately most of the things you've suggested can't be enforced legally. I can't make STBXH leave the house (and my solicitor is very clear that I shouldn't leave either for risk of losing entitlement to assets or - far worse - the DCs) or not manipulate the children or not upset them.

All I can do is my best to mitigate the harm he's doing by arranging support for them at school, not sinking to his level, and taking legal advice at every turn. I'm doing my best.

I haven't cross-questioned DC1 - he's started every conversation.

I know you're doing your best and it is very hard for you to see the wood for the trees especially after so many years of being manipulated.

If he carries on being threatening though that is grounds to have him removed from the house.

Why is he insisting next weekend? I think you need to insist it is this weekend because DC 1 already knows and it is not fair on him to keep it a secret...

Because his parents are down this weekend and he doesn't want their visit ruined.

(Plus, I suspect, the following weekend is my birthday and he doesn't mind that being ruined.)

Well stuff that and tell them tomorrow instead, just rip the plaster off and get on with it, take some control back.

This is a hideous situation of expecting DC1 to keep it secret and it's just not appropriate any longer.

His parents coming for the weekend I bet will make him behave better...

Sorry, I haven't been clear. I'm not going to be at home this weekend. Because his parents are coming, and me being here would ruin the weekend.

Sorry, don't know where I got phones in there!

I guess about all you can do is try to monitor (eavesdrop on) conversations as best you can so at least you know what he's saying. And just keep repeating to the children "Daddy shouldn't be talking to you about those things. That's between Mummy and Daddy and not about you. We both love you and want you to be happy". But do write down the date and what's said in your journal of these things. As far as what you said re blame, don't revisit, just let it go. In the long run, I think the children will realize the truth.

Suggest you try to take the children to your parents for your birthday. BTW, do his parents know? I seem to remember they were told at Xmas?

All I can do is my best to mitigate the harm he's doing by arranging support for them at school, not sinking to his level, and taking legal advice at every turn. I'm doing my best.

And your best is very good.

Clarification: ...keep repeating to the children if they ask about or tell you things "Daddy shouldn't be talking to you about those things……….

Well at least you get a weekend off from him and yes it does justify you having them for your birthday weekend and visiting your parents or him buggering off...

He is very afraid of the DC being told the truth isn't he!

Today is Tuesday. You have 3 full days before the weekend.

Over you need to sit down all your children and tell them, by yourself. Not with your stbx. It's his problem if he doesn't want to tell them now. Your first DC must be very worried if he is broaching the subject. He's realised his siblings don't know. He's looking to you for stability and reassurance. Talking to them about it is not cross-examining them. My two kids were roughly the age of your two eldest and I told them both, together. And then talked a bit differently to the eldest after on other occasions (mostly like a bit of a broken record). I didn't tell them the reason at all, just that divorce was happening. Factual. Not telling them is enabling him to continue manipulating them even more. He sounds like past master at that sort of headfuck. I bet what your DC's told you is the tip of the iceberg.

I'd ring WA, not for their Freedom Prog as such, but to ask what emotional support you could get for you or your DCs. Maybe a support worker. No harm in trying. Solicitor is all well and good but it's not helping you deal with the emotional fallout. School may help but I'd look into a psychologist otherwise if you can afford it. At one point I realised I couldn't do it all by myself as I was in a state myself. It's really helped.

What you want to salvage from this is your children, and your relationship with them. That's who/what's precious. Who cares about your stbx's feelings. He's irrelevant, or he will be. He's always been a liar by the sound of it. He'll damage your relationship with your children for the sake of looking better if you let him. He wants you to lie by omission. Tell them tomorrow. I'd seriously worry wtf he wants to say at the weekend in front of his parents if you're not there. Also how is your absence this weekend going to be explained away to the 4 and 5 year olds, while the 8 year old knows why presumably? Best tell them yourself tomorrow.

God yes. Tell them yourself tomorrow. Seriously. You don't need his permission and anything else is making them pawns in his shitty game. You can't trust this man as far as you can throw him, take control of the situation. Do his parents know?

I'm thirding telling them tomorrow. You need to take control and do it your way, you are the one that is going to be there for the children, 'cos he won't be. He will lie to them, manipulate them for his own ends, to show him in the best possible light and the dc will be confused by his gaslighting. Be as honest with them as possible, in age appropriate terms, TAKE CONTROL of this op, please xx

Look, I've fucked up. I've said I won't tell DCs 2&3 until the weekend of 20/21 February.

If I go back on that then he will make our lives desperately unpleasant, by upsetting the DCs in the kind of way he upset DC1 this morning - by asking him leading questions and planting ideas in his head.

I can cope with him fucking me around, but I can't cope with him fucking with their heads.

The only way that I could tell DCs 2&3 sooner and not risk him doing that is if some fact changes or an event takes place that I can point to and say - that thing there is why I had to do it.

I can't manipulate them into asking me direct (I've told him I won't lie to them if they ask me a direct question). I can't ask a third party such as our nanny to get involved.

Help me. Is there research out there that proves that DC1 is being damaged by being asked to keep this secret? There must be, but I can't find it.

If I can find that, and email it to him, and say: I'm going to tell them tonight and it's up to you whether you're there or not. Then I can tell them and not risk him manipulating them out of anger or revenge.

0ver, do his parents know? I think they do, no? Any chance they'd listen to you regarding the children being hurt or damaged by stbx's behaviour?

Google 'Parental Alienation'. Just be aware that many of the links are 'father's rights' organizations who take a decidedly 'pro father' stance on the issue.

Yes, his parents know.

I've goggled parental alienation. Scares the bejesus.

Yeah, pretty scary. Here (US) it's grounds for revoking access up to and including termination of parental rights. I'm not sure of the legal status of Parental Alienation in the UK, but may be worth speaking to your solicitor about.

It seems to me that now that he's beginning to realize that you're stronger than he thought, he may have decided to turn his manipulations to the children in order to use them to get to you. That's what Parental Alienation is all about. This is why it's so important to keep trying everything you can to get him out of the house. It's also why you seriously need to consider leaving yourself with the children. I know your solicitor has advised against this, just be sure he/she understands the effect it's having on the children. Perhaps it could be considered a mitigating factor when it comes to financial issues. I can't believe a judge would financially penalize someone for removing their children from a mentally unhealthy situation.

I can understand not wanting to get the nanny involved, but I think you certainly should discuss things with her so that she is aware of what's going on. I'd think she could be a big source of support and stability for the children.

I think you can justify - not that you need to- telling the nanny as DC1 knows and might mention it in passing or actually need someone to talk to and it is not fair to expect DC1 to keep it secret until next weekend. You can't put pressure on DC1 to stay quiet and not mention it to nanny or to only say something if siblings aren't there. Get it out in the open now. Then if DC1 wants to talk to grandparents this weekend they can without the need to keep more secrets.

I would be worried about them getting used to keeping secrets now and then STBXH telling them secrets to keep from you in the future.

I know you're really scared and he's got you beaten down emotionally but you don't need "something" to show that you have to tell them. You are their mother, you can see DC1 is struggling, it IS wrong to expect a child to keep that secret until the 20/21 Feb. You are allowed to make these unilateral decisions. He makes plenty of his own, your job is to protect the DCs and having one carrying the burden of a "secret" from his siblings is corrosive and damaging. You tell them today and you DON'T take the blame. People grow apart, you don't love Daddy but both you and Daddy love them very much.
You CAN do this.

agree with all the pps saying take control for the sake of your dcc and your relationship with them. The damage he is doing will not be easy to overcome and your dcc need to have this rotten burden lifted off them. Also you need to speak to the nanny as you did to the school. She needs to know what to say to help the cc in her care. Why wd you take the blame? It's not kind to the cc to make them think you are doing something that hurts them. They have to depend on at least 1 of you - who will that be? Be strong for their sakes. You have to start some time.

Oh over, I feel for you - you're panicking.

I think it would really, seriously help you to talk to someone professionally like Women's Aid; someone who can offer some objective analysis and ideas and help. What do you think, do you have time to do that before you head home today?

I think you shd stay at home for the weekend as you will not know what is being said to your dcc about you by their father and grandparents. Do not make it easy for these people to alienate your dccs affections from their mother. Can you invite a friend to visit with you for the duration of the gps visit , to give you support?

Huge hugs

I think you need to tell him that you made a mistake agreeing to the 20/21st and that you did it to appease him. You now realise it isn't in the DC best interests to have one know and the others not that DC1 needs support from the nanny and from his siblings so you are telling them...

You seem so very frightened and cowed and I wish you great strength to come out fighting as Mama Bear to protect them from him.

Over, I agree that you need to tell them other two dc asap, it's unfair to burden dc1 with it. Whether you do tell them or not, I wonder if you have thought of the effect you being away could have on dc1 at least, so soon after telling him. Also what a splendid opportunity it is for stbxh to twist them to his lies. No one there to remind that the mummy they know and love and trust is you, that person, the one they're looking at right now, who is smiling and giving them a cuddle/meal/bath etc.

Add me to the 'tell him' camp. You've taken the bull by the horns with telling him you are done with him. But you've let your 'conditioning' (by him) to allow him to push you back and he's now exerting that control you hate so much. You need to start moving forward to take back that ground you've 'lost'.

Tell the children. Don't allow him to dictate to you. You are going to be on your own (hopefully sooner than you hope) and you may as well start making your own decisions right now. You've said you worry about what he may do or say, but honestly, what he's doing and saying right now to the children is already bad. And no amount of 'playing nice' is going to stop him from poisoning them and manipulating them. The only thing that can stop that is you. He is a bully and hopefully like most bullies when someone stands up him he'll back down.

I think you need to speak to your solicitor. Tell him/her that the situation at home is rapidly becoming intolerable and is affecting the children. Speak to WA, get information from them about what might qualify you for an order that will get him out of the home on the basis of emotional abuse and parental alienation. Tell the solicitor and WA every little thing he's said and done to you and the chldren, no matter how 'puny' you may think it is. Small things can add up to one big thing. One big thing may just be enough.