aibu? i'm just so tired (v v long)

[thestamp]

my husband has a few complaints about me, and has for years.

some of them are probably founded. others may be blown out of proportion. all of them are based on me and my very real strengths and weaknesses... things i have worked on for years but that can only be changed so much.

i love him and want it to work but he is just so unhappy and i feel like no matter what he always will be.

we have been together for over 10 years now, from when i was a teenager. back then i was gobby and immature and generally flirty and not a particularly amazing gf - but i always loved him and was devoted to him in my own silly teenage way. and i never cheated on him, hand on heart - but a few times, he very much thought that i did.

we were really tempestuous but we learned a lot in the early years and i thought we had a really good thing. we got married in our mid 20s. we have so many good times. we have wonderful dcs. we think the same way about money, managed to build up great careers, etc. etc. and have a great sex life.

but every few months, no matter what, it will come up again that he thinks i am going to "humiliate" him - cheat on him, gossip maliciously about him, something like that. embarrass him, disrespect him.

he says that it is because i have regularly (a few times a year) humiliated him, including the time he thought that i had cheated on him, 8 years ago. (i stayed on at a bar, without him, until closing time with one of his friends - was v drunk and was having one of those philosophical convos that seemed v important at the time. it was stupid and i didn't so much as kiss the boy. and i was 21, so also an idiot. dh seems 50% sure that i actually cheated on him with this boy)

other much more recent example: we were out with my work mates and he and another person were talking to me at once, one in each ear, not realising they were talking over each other, so i put my hands up and snapped loudly (pretty rudely i think) that i couldn't hear because everyone was talking to me ("aaagh stop it everyone is talking to me at once!!"). dh took this as me humiliating him and trying to embarrass/dismiss him in front of my friends, as a sign of my basic disrespect for him. i see it as me being impulsively rude, not thinking before i reacted, which i apologised for. this happened almost a year ago now but has been regularly brought up as a reason for him feeling down about our relationship. he will now not socialise with me when i am with my work mates.

(note, i realise alcohol was involved in both of these instances! in response, i rarely have more than 2 drinks when out with my dh because i recognise the trigger for my rudeness/thoughtlessness.)

there are assorted other instances that, to him, are a huge pile of things that add up to a big, bad feeling that he can never trust me.

i can see where he is coming from, to an extent. i would be hurt if my dh did and said hurtful things to me on nights out. at the same time, i know that i have never cheated on him and that my life pretty much revolves around him. i speak highly of him to others. i rarely if ever moan about him to friends (which is unusual in my group of friends!). i keep so much to myself because i want to do right by him.

whenever i say something like "i know that you feel this way but my rudeness is a reflection of my character flaws - i can be impulsive, snappy, rude, inconsiderate - not a reflection on my feelings for you" he will answer something like "but if you really respected me you would never treat me that way". to which i respond "but everyone says and does stupid things to their partner sometimes! it's part of life".

which he disagrees with. tbf he rarely upsets me. he is generally a stellar husband. really. the bad news is that when i do confront him about something, it WILL end up with him basically saying that he's done it because he has been affected by my long term disrespect for him. so i almost always end up apologising, even when it's me that was wanting an apology from him to start with. that part really tires me out.

i am so tired of being the bad guy. 10 years of being the bad guy is really wearing me down.

i can see where he is coming from but i am starting to ask myself, why did he marry me when he is so unhappy with me? he has said himself that he never trusted me so why even propose? why has he bought a house with me, started a business with me, had children with me, when he can't trust me? i have asked him and he has basically said "well i love you" and in less happy moments "well i just followed along with what you wanted".

sigh.

what does one do in this situation?

i was his first serious gf and i do think that he thinks there are women out there who are much more respectful and loving than me. from my perspective, i think he has got a good wife in me and i'm not actually sure he could find someone else who would try so hard to do right by him. aibu to think that?

of course i do stupid, really thoughtless things sometimes - things that can seem cruel even though they're not intended in that way - a few times a year say. aibu to think everyone does?

i tend to be a leader, he tends to follow me. this has led to many happy things for him but i feel he hasn't always been true to himself. but now, i have this dread that he actually SHOULD leave me, that he actually wants to, but never will because he struggles to take decisive action.

i just feel so so tired thinking about another 50+ years married to someone who is offended by things that i can't change. i want desperately for him to be happy.

he won't go to counselling.

hi. i am ok. feeling sort of low right now but not at the point of tears or anything. just fed up and tired and blah.

have had some legal advice and i am pretty stuck for a while due to business things. long complicated story ugh. nothing insurmountable, just tedious/drawn out.

had chat with dh on tues night. reiterated that it was over. he got really angry and upset, cutting me off, etc. i pointed out gently that it wasn't his place to get upset with me. he calmed down. i pointed out that it was not his decision anymore and that something is broken inside me now and i can't go back and feel the way about him that i used to... that the veil is removed now.

he replied the veil was removed from his eyes too and he can see he is "sick" and he needs treatment and he'll change and it's all different now and how can i go back on my vows etc. etc.

i again just replied gently that i can't help him, and that it is what it is and no amount of vow-remembering is going to help that. (i could have pointed out that his vows included honouring and cherishing me, which, yeah, but i didn't bother) and that i can't care for him through whatever treatment he needs, because i am the alcohol to his alcoholism, as it were.

he started to really cry in a very despairing way, but also started to agree with me slowly. it was really upsetting but i didn't break down (much). after an hour, i took myself upstairs because, again, setting that boundary that i can't sit up stroking his brow etc.

wednesday i only saw him quite briefly. we asked how each other were doing and agreed that we both were feeling a bit better. i do think that he is starting to accept that there is a new normal now. which is for the best. it was very good that we had the chat on tues, because i wanted to level set before he started individual counselling, which is today. i am not attending the session. i reiterated that couples counselling is not something we should do. he didn't contradict me.

today i feel really drained. sitting at work, don't want to go home but prob need to just lie in a bathtub and cry... just that aimless crying that comes when you are in the middle of lots of scary change. need to be held. no-one to hold me.

we are going to be in a house together, with entwined finances, for many months yet. finding it hard to face that. feel lonely and a bit down. still not eating much at all. blah.

Keep the end goal in sight. It's all worth it. Think of how free you will be.

Remember if he starts to be threatening towards you or the dc you can call the police and have him removed and you can get an injunction type things so you can have sole residency whilst things are sorted out. So yes he will have to behave in reasonable manner whilst things are sorted.

KOKO

My iPad refused to post for ages. Hopefully it will post this.

I wrote a long post about how my STBXH's individual counselling actually made him treat me worse until it was a huge relief when he left. But I don't think that's what you need nowOP

Instead, please really look after yourself. This kind of stuff really drains you of energy. Think about what you need to do to care for yourself. Rest as much as is feasibly possible. I found mindfulness was a big help, enabled me to cope with the worst of times. MN is great for venting and support. Keep educating yourself about abusive relationships. It's liberating to clearly see their manipulations. Stops them being effective too.

I'm glad you've got RL support, that made a big difference too. Allow yourself to feel sad or tired. It's not surprising. But you're heading in the right direction. Keep going OP.

i really appreciate the support. thank you.

if he started to treat me or the dc badly, my colleague who lives down the road would come and fetch us all and put us up without blinking. colleague has even given me a safe word to text if things kick off. (and i would call the police too. but what i mean is, sometimes as we all know the police are rubbish but even if that were the case, i have protection and support.) my boss would also go mental.

dh knows that too, i'm quite sure, which also helps. he knows he's not got the upper hand here at all.

it really is just about caring for myself like you say Rozalia. will probably lie in the bath tonight and have a cry. dh will be out so it will be fine.

the funny thing is that i am intimately aware of so many things about abusive rs... and now all the pieces fall into place... it drains me to realise each terrible thing...

i remember so many times that he kept our 2yo up past 10pm, "waiting for mummy to come home from x work do" and would then guilt me about how he'd thought i'd be in long before i was... dc always so exhausted the next day (always a day when i was alone with dc) that it was a miserable slog and i'd be stuck at home trying to manage it all...

i always, always thought he was doing it in good faith, really assuming i was going to be home any minute.
nope... he was just manipulating me. so completely appalling. i have been so trusting.

It's very sad but I admire your strength and clarity of mind. It's not going to dwell on bad things and cause yourself to go into a negative feedback loop that spills over into other aspects of your life, but at the same time it is absolutely essential to feel the feelings you were denied at the time and accept the things he has done and the person he is which requires acknowledging things like you mention in your last post I think.

I'm really glad you've had legal advice now and can at least see the path ahead even if it seems (and will probably be) arduous.

You are doing very well maintaining your boundaries. Keeping up with that and also rediscovering yourself free from his oppressive influence on your mind are going to be key things in the next few months.

Have you read anything about detaching from a narcissist. He seems to have something of the masochistic narc in him from what you've written armchair psychologist!

he's very masochistic. it's upsetting. he needs a sadist in his life i suppose... i hope he sorts himself out and is happy one day.

was really really weepy last night and this morning. lay in bath for long time sobbing. friends texting to cheer me up, would literally pause to laugh at a text and then continue sobbing. (lol it is sort of silly isn't it...)
dh had his counselling and i could tell was dying to talk to me about it for hours but i just couldn't so avoided him once he was home. he didn't push it.

he made me a cup of tea this morning which has not happened in literally years. i hope to God he is just trying to be nicer and that the counsellor did not encourage him to try to engineer a reconciliation. ugh i am almost sure that they did. but what can i do but keep going in the direction i know we must go.

doing all my invoices today and cringing because half of all this money is going to go to him... which is fine... at least it's not all the money i make for the rest of my life.

dreading the weekend. what can one do, though. have made some plans so at least will not be forced to be indoors the whole time.

Think of your boundaries regarding the talking about his counselling and the cup of tea. There is nothing wrong with saying 'I don't want you to do this, we are separated and it makes me uncomfortable'.

Just because it is a nice thing or something difficult he is going through doesn't mean you have to accept it. I know you know that and have been very good at maintaining your boundaries so far but I suspect this is going to be the two ways he tries to break you down - doing nice things that you wanted him to do years ago and him struggling and failing without your support to make you feel sorry for him. Possibly with some 'successes' thrown in but if he is a masochistic narc then he mainly gets his supply from the attention he gets from harming himself or being a victim so manipulative succeeding will be less likely IMO.

It will be very difficult to remain unmoved in the face of those things but I think if you have to live together for the next few months you need to be conscious that these things are both manipulative and too little too late.

i hear you offred. it's going to get very tiresome soon. i promise to send out the bat signal for my colleague if i find i can't fend off the manipulations. but i absolutely won't be drawn back in. that's just not something that i will allow.

it's funny... this is just what i am like... it takes a lot and i mean A LOT to make me change my mind about something i really believed in (e.g. our rs). but once my mind is changed i can't go back. it's like the gauntlet has been thrown and i simply can't back down from the fight.

the earth has moved off its axis and it can't be undone. word is getting out that i am finished with my partner and i realised yesterday that already one or two men i know (acquaintances) are already quietly lining up to "comfort" me (i am not interested in them but i am just observing it happen) via fb messages and so on.

and i find myself thinking... jfc what did i waste all my time being treated like this for? i didn't need to be treated like this, i didn't need to always feel i was a disappointment. there have probably been men i knew this whole time who actually LIKED ME and would have loved to spend time with me. who knew!

also had a little epiphany yesterday... when i met my dh i still believed i was defective (as abuse survivor). and that fitted with him very well, bc he also thought i was defective. so of course we "fell in love" - i felt safe with him because he reflected my reality back at me. but, surprise! i am not defective! and now i know it! soooo... sorry, can't go back and pretend that we still fit together. he is going to have to find someone else to do that dance with.

i'm looking forward to just being on my own for a while and remembering all the things i used to like doing. going to go to a coffee shop just now, and sit and write for a bit. imagine... me doing something for myself. the mind boggles.

KOKO step by step you are moving forward in a very powerful way.

Ah stamp I have had similar experiences and relate entirely to the giving and giving then snapping and there being no way back - becoming unmovable as a result.

You've handled things so much better than I ever did tbh. I left my husband in similar circs for similar reasons a couple of years ago and fell right back into another relationship with another man who feels I am defective, scales are falling from my eyes currently. Your plan to be alone is a very good one, I planned the same but current guy pressured me and I now regret it massively. This is my fourth relationship in the last 13 years with different men who all feel the same way about me. Your clear explanation that feeling defective causes you to seek and keep people who reflect that reality at you is so important personally to me.

It's so much easier to give advice than live it!

me again. this is going to be a long one but i need to write it all out.

i did indeed go to sit in a cafe and wrote for 3h and it felt wonderful. i also walked down the high street which i haven't done in years since obv i have been under suspicion if i did such things... friday night was extremely tense, dh refusing to speak to me (we have been civil up til then). i started to worry he had assumed i was off fucking someone. anxiety started to build.

saturday morning, dh disconnected from dc (not mean, just... odd) and still not talking to me. went to visit my closest mum friend (dc in tow) and was so anxious (worried about what dh was going to do, if this weekend he would switch to angry tactics and i would have to basically flee my house) i burst into tears and told her everything, she was so shocked, bless her.

she is incandescent with rage about it and says she would rip his throat out if it were her, she said what my other friend said, that i have always been so kind and attentive and devoted to him, that she thought i was a supermum and can't believe he would still treat me like he has/believe i was unfaithful, in the face of how much i did for him. i just cried. but it was better to break the silence. she says i have always been so understanding to/about him, that he is lucky it's me he's divorcing and not her because she would probably have murdered him by now. and she's right!

i asked her to tell our mutual mum friend because i couldn't face telling it all again. she did and mutual mum friend text me and offered her spare room too. aaand i cried again. i'm so grateful i never allowed dh to destroy all my friendships. God knows he tried. it's sad but true.

anyway, went home, was dreading it. dh still disconnected and strange around dc. not talking to me. after bedtime i gathered myself up and went to confront him. over the preceding 24h i had realised that we must, MUST separate our households as soon as possible. it is very tricky because of legal/financial things but it MUST be done, the plans must begin, or the temptation to try scary tactics against me would become too great (and i would still be focused on him, not on myself - see my anxiety about what he is thinking etc). so my goal was to lead him to water as gently as i could and hope that he would drink. had my phone with me, knowing i might have to make the call to colleague.

approached him gently asking if he was able to talk. he was contemptuous, eye rolly, interrupting me, etc. i persevered, tried to get to the point quickly but gently. once he realised what i was talking about (me setting up home elsewhere), the facade disintegrated and he started to cry - while i held it together, i was very upset inside and have difficulty recalling everything he said. the gist was, please don't leave, please let's try again, i am in therapy, etc.

my memory comes back here, where i finally said out loud, "this rs is abusive. you've been abusing me for years." and he said, "i know, i know it it abusive." and kind of collapsed a bit more because he knew that now we'd said that out loud, there was no turning back.

he argued a little more, trying to tell me that he'd change. again, found this very upsetting so can't remember details. i heard him out and then said, "i know that you did not 'mean' to do any of this. but you know that if i stay in this marriage, i would be spitting in my children's faces. we would both be teaching them terrible things and they would never have a chance at happiness. let's end this now while they are still little, and take the time to heal - and they will never remember a time when things were bad in their home."

he cried and cried when i said that but he was nodding as he did and i knew he'd heard me. i went on and explained that because we are in an abusive marriage, the more i am there, the worse it's going to get and that we both need to heal and that means us separating our households so that we can focus on ourselves and not obsess about each other, etc. etc. and he agreed with me again.

i pulled him up about how he's been with the dc and he acknowledged he felt spaced out and weird when around me/them. i wanted to give him a pep talk about how he needs to be strong for them etc but restrained myself. i stuck with just voicing it as an observation. i don't know what he's going through and can't be responsible for it.

the rest of the weekend was better. civil to each other but with appropriate distance. i still feel really drained when we are in the same room for too long so have been decamping upstairs for breaks. he's been giving me space so far.

on sunday night we had a first stab at a childcare rota - no drama and we worked something out - but after a few minutes discussion i called time, went to bed and cried myself to sleep. it's just so stressful and sad.

things have moved forward a little more. and i know this sounds weird but thank fuck it's monday and i have other things to think about for 5 whole days in a row.

Well done you on EVERY front.

You are a formidable woman!!!!!

KOKO

Oh my, it sounds utterly exhausting! Bloody well done. You are handling everything so well. So brave of you to face him and tell him the relationship is abusive! I hope you are able to sort things fairly quickly so you can move on with the separation.

Just read your update. You are a fucking hero! Seriously, this whole thing must be so upsetting for you, but you're dealing with it BRILLIANTLY. It sounds like you said all the right things during a very challenging discussion.
I'm also glad you told your friend and have more support behind you. You basically have an army of supporters now (including us cheerleading in the background!)
Keep up the good work superwoman!

thank you for supporting me. i can;t tell you how much it means to me. my friends are there for me but you know how you can only say so much out loud... or it becomes like you're dumping on people*? not sure if that makes sense but that's how i feel. it helps so much to just write it all out here. also as a record of things i could easily forget or pretend don't exist.

i feel for dh (i know this is not my problem but i am thinking about it and need to leave it somewhere) because he said to me, "because of the person i've been, i have no friends but you, and now i've driven you away because i was so scared of losing you. so now you've finally been driven away and i have no-one at all finally".

it's sad what people do to themselves? it's like some people build things, and other people just tear everything down with their own hands, and both kinds of people suffer for it.

i imagine many abusive husbands feel the way he does.
i can't (shouldn't, mustn't, know that i can't) help, but i do feel such sadness.

i have a lot to learn about not rescuing people from themselves. i do it all the time and it doesn't help anyone, all it does is boost my own ego and make me feel like i am special, while at the same time it isolates me. it's going to take a lot of practice.

*i feel this way because i am trying to rescue my friends from seeing the full extent of my grief.

People need to see you are human so that you can see it and feel it too I think.

I started my own thread about knobend BF the other day and loads have posted saying it is both shocking and helpful to see someone who usually is giving the advice being honest about the shit they are going through and their flaws.

It's important to share, to expect support from people around you as well as giving it. X

i'm on your thread now offred, reading through it. gosh i'm so sorry.

I'm quite at peace today actually! I have put thoughts of the knobend aside today! Mad what we put up with before we see the truth isn't it?!

If I haven't already posted this link - you might find this useful reading about the karpman triangle of victim, rescuer and persecutor and how people move between these positions.

thanks FB. you did post it earlier and it is incredibly helpful. just read it again. i am a rescuer/victim. dh is a victim/persecutor.

glad you are feeling a bit better Offred? Hope you go from strength to strength.

just rsvped an art class that i've been wanting to do for ages. excited about it. just one session... not ready to commit to anything.

i might go to the gym tonight since i've been able to eat today.

have been checking out properties online.

during the week, i feel so motivated and like everything is wonderful. it's only the weekends (and the anticipation thereof) that are really hard.

Stamp, hoping you are continuing yoyr path of revelation (sounds biblical?!) and holding firm - have awful feeling he may switch to nasty and so think your instinct to seperate households asap really is the way forward xx

thanks seymour. tuesday night was another conversation where i had to remind him that i was being reasonable and we didn't really have a choice but to split.

it's going to get hard, and soon. i know it in my gut. he has to get to the full acceptance stage at some point and on the way there, i suspect there will be a fair bit of nasty anger.

there is already this little narrative creeping in... as i said in my OP, he has difficulty making decisions for himself... so i have been forced many times to take action on his behalf (with his apparent assent) and then deal with the aftermath of "well i actually didn't want to do that but was going along with you" etc...

so the narrative is "yet again you have decided what we are doing and i have no control" sadface, crying nonsense.
and i am countering with "i can't change what has to happen. you have been unhappy for a long time and so have i. we have to end this now." and trying to shut it down and not continue the conversation. very challenging.

he's also started on the whole "i love everything about you though, i don't have any complaints about you, all the bad treatment and complaining about you was me just being insecure, it will be all different now because i won't be insecure". which just makes me laugh because, interesting how the narrative changes THE MOMENT i say i've had enough of being the reason for someone's misery.

he keeps saying he wants to beg me to stay, but is trying not to.
i keep leaving the room when he says that because, he is saying it isn't he.

it's just exhausting.

i need to buy another car and he is resisting, saying we should wait until the new year.
but i can't move out until i buy a car. (we aren't in uk, car is a necessity here.)

again... i know he is just resisting change and it's very hard to accept what is happening. but i somehow need to find the energy to get this done - to get the money to purchase a car, without being accused of thievery or pressure tactics, because our finances are going to be entwined for a while still. fuckkk.

I think you may just need to bite the bullet and do it tbh. No matter what he accuses you of.

I researched flats for XH, worked out all the finances and told him to comply at the end of my marriage. There have been passive aggressive things like not changing his address with work 'because I didn't know how long I would be here' causing me to almost be done for fraud by Tax credits people who wanted proof he didn't live with me...

Expect to face the attacks but don't let them stop you or slow you down. There are enough real barriers to break through in your situation without allowing him to throw more up IMO. Just have to weather the storm. :(

It's kind of you to ask after me btw! Issues with my most recent relationship have well and truly been put out of my mind because of a massive crisis which happened with XH and the kids on Monday/Tuesday. it is me still picking up the pieces and sorting things out, thinking carefully what to say to him so he doesn't think I want to get back together because I'm engaging with him again and so he actually changes some of the behaviour that is hurting the DC...

So wearing, can't imagine an end to it really but reminding myself I've still come far and have dealt with worse than him!