aibu? i'm just so tired (v v long)

[thestamp]

my husband has a few complaints about me, and has for years.

some of them are probably founded. others may be blown out of proportion. all of them are based on me and my very real strengths and weaknesses... things i have worked on for years but that can only be changed so much.

i love him and want it to work but he is just so unhappy and i feel like no matter what he always will be.

we have been together for over 10 years now, from when i was a teenager. back then i was gobby and immature and generally flirty and not a particularly amazing gf - but i always loved him and was devoted to him in my own silly teenage way. and i never cheated on him, hand on heart - but a few times, he very much thought that i did.

we were really tempestuous but we learned a lot in the early years and i thought we had a really good thing. we got married in our mid 20s. we have so many good times. we have wonderful dcs. we think the same way about money, managed to build up great careers, etc. etc. and have a great sex life.

but every few months, no matter what, it will come up again that he thinks i am going to "humiliate" him - cheat on him, gossip maliciously about him, something like that. embarrass him, disrespect him.

he says that it is because i have regularly (a few times a year) humiliated him, including the time he thought that i had cheated on him, 8 years ago. (i stayed on at a bar, without him, until closing time with one of his friends - was v drunk and was having one of those philosophical convos that seemed v important at the time. it was stupid and i didn't so much as kiss the boy. and i was 21, so also an idiot. dh seems 50% sure that i actually cheated on him with this boy)

other much more recent example: we were out with my work mates and he and another person were talking to me at once, one in each ear, not realising they were talking over each other, so i put my hands up and snapped loudly (pretty rudely i think) that i couldn't hear because everyone was talking to me ("aaagh stop it everyone is talking to me at once!!"). dh took this as me humiliating him and trying to embarrass/dismiss him in front of my friends, as a sign of my basic disrespect for him. i see it as me being impulsively rude, not thinking before i reacted, which i apologised for. this happened almost a year ago now but has been regularly brought up as a reason for him feeling down about our relationship. he will now not socialise with me when i am with my work mates.

(note, i realise alcohol was involved in both of these instances! in response, i rarely have more than 2 drinks when out with my dh because i recognise the trigger for my rudeness/thoughtlessness.)

there are assorted other instances that, to him, are a huge pile of things that add up to a big, bad feeling that he can never trust me.

i can see where he is coming from, to an extent. i would be hurt if my dh did and said hurtful things to me on nights out. at the same time, i know that i have never cheated on him and that my life pretty much revolves around him. i speak highly of him to others. i rarely if ever moan about him to friends (which is unusual in my group of friends!). i keep so much to myself because i want to do right by him.

whenever i say something like "i know that you feel this way but my rudeness is a reflection of my character flaws - i can be impulsive, snappy, rude, inconsiderate - not a reflection on my feelings for you" he will answer something like "but if you really respected me you would never treat me that way". to which i respond "but everyone says and does stupid things to their partner sometimes! it's part of life".

which he disagrees with. tbf he rarely upsets me. he is generally a stellar husband. really. the bad news is that when i do confront him about something, it WILL end up with him basically saying that he's done it because he has been affected by my long term disrespect for him. so i almost always end up apologising, even when it's me that was wanting an apology from him to start with. that part really tires me out.

i am so tired of being the bad guy. 10 years of being the bad guy is really wearing me down.

i can see where he is coming from but i am starting to ask myself, why did he marry me when he is so unhappy with me? he has said himself that he never trusted me so why even propose? why has he bought a house with me, started a business with me, had children with me, when he can't trust me? i have asked him and he has basically said "well i love you" and in less happy moments "well i just followed along with what you wanted".

sigh.

what does one do in this situation?

i was his first serious gf and i do think that he thinks there are women out there who are much more respectful and loving than me. from my perspective, i think he has got a good wife in me and i'm not actually sure he could find someone else who would try so hard to do right by him. aibu to think that?

of course i do stupid, really thoughtless things sometimes - things that can seem cruel even though they're not intended in that way - a few times a year say. aibu to think everyone does?

i tend to be a leader, he tends to follow me. this has led to many happy things for him but i feel he hasn't always been true to himself. but now, i have this dread that he actually SHOULD leave me, that he actually wants to, but never will because he struggles to take decisive action.

i just feel so so tired thinking about another 50+ years married to someone who is offended by things that i can't change. i want desperately for him to be happy.

he won't go to counselling.

You think pandering to him and letting him kill your spirit is the way to "pull everyone out with the least possible damage" ?

You are wrong. Have you ever contacted Women's Aid ? Looked at The Freedom Programme ? You say you have had counselling for years...has that been to try and find ways to tolerate the abuse of you ?

OP, he is bad bad news!

no AF... obviously i am here trying to find a way to NOT pander to this, and NOT let my spirit die ... i.e., i am trying to find a way to pull everyone (including me) out with the least possible damage. i fully accept that this could include leaving the relationship. i am trying to work through all the fears and roadblocks and equivocations i have, so that i can do right by myself and my children, and my dh, since he is the father of my dcs and we are always going to be parents together. that is what i mean by the least possible damage.

i am not in the uk so have not contacted WA.

i have talked little about my dh to my counsellors because, sadly, most of my counselling time has been spent trying to recover from incest. i am trying to keep everything together here. i've actually done a fucking good job so far even if you think i haven't.

you don't need to hit me in the face and call me names to get me to listen to you, i am already listening to you. please be supportive of me. i need it so much.

Lovely with all due respect you could walk around in sack cloth and ashes and your dh would still think you were flirting and be shocked to his core.

Seriously I dread to think how he handles a real life problem, there would be nothing left of the poor lambs core.

Op he's chipping away at you and making his inadequacies and zero self worth your issue, he's transferring his shit all over you. You will be a shell of a woman after another 20 yrs if this, this is not living
You are handling him and dare I say enabling his abuse if you

Op it is not your job to Pull everyone out of this, it's not even doable, you literally cannot coax another human being into changing their behaviour if they do not possess insight in to their behaviour.

This wouldn't be a failure on your part, there is no job to be done, life is to be lived not endured. You talk very much like he is a pet project and seek to minimise his responsibility for his own unhappiness.
Please don't teach your children how to appease an abuser, that it's ok because the poor love had a shit childhood, they may go on to find someone to treat the same.

i don't disagree with anything said here.

it's hard because i have worked for years to be empathetic to my dh and to always show him love and affection. knowing that all that work was for nothing - that he will still see the worst in me even after all of that - is very very hard.

i've always had such high hopes.

I am supportive of you but that might not involve empty platitudes.

You need to open up to your counsellors about this abusive marriage you are in.

You are trying to manage the unmanageable and you/your dc are getting damaged along the way.

Is there an equivalent to WA where you are? You need RL support.

If your still in counselling op please ask your therapist about "enslaved mentality" or Cinderella syndrome
Your following a pattern from your childhood, and I am so sorry you had to go through something so awful. Your childhood trauma and way of coping with it has set up a mental pattern or way of coping with your husband.

It appears that your best efforts arent and will never be good enough. You tried. You changed. You grew up.
Does he set you up to fail? Is he looking for a reason to pull you down?
Whats home life like day to day?

Op I have been you. I was an attractive outgoing perfectly normal 19 year old with quite low self esteem and I dated your dh. I nearly married him. I cannot imagine the hell my life would have been if I had.

My heart breaks for you because you are me in an alternate universe. He destroyed my view of myself so much when I finally dumped him I had quite severe depression and it took my wonderful dh coming along to show me I was trustworthy.

I don't really know what I want this post to achieve but I feel the need to tell you you must get out because he won't change and it will keep destroying you. I'm trying to imagine my dh bringing up an incident where I snapped at him a year later. I can't but I bet you if I ran into my ex he could still tell me every single perceived slight he suffered from me.

There is nothing you can do to help him see that he needn't be the way he is.

Refusing to consider therapy suggests that he doesn't see that he has a problem and I'm guessing that he's inverted his feelings of inferiority to a point where he feels superior to you and, no doubt, to others. In short, he won't brook any criticism and he won't admit to having any imperfections other than not putting the top back on the toothpaste and other trivia of that nature.

You've done a valiant job in defending your position but it has reached a point where, having laid siege for years, he's breached your defences and if you don't start taking steps to shore up your self-confidence you'll no longer be asking if it's 'you or him' as you'll be convinced that you're at fault and that you should be taking all your cues from him.

I very much doubt that giving him an ultimatum will cause him to rethink his behaviour or seek therapy and when if you leave him he will, of course, be even more convinced that you're out to 'humiliate', 'gossip', 'disrespect', and cheat on him.

I'm not one to advocate leaving the bastard to every post made here but in your case I have no hesitation in recommending that you LTB because your dc deserve to have a dm who isn't afraid to be herself, and you will at least be able to counteract a large part of the negative impact he has on them if you're not living with him.

What would happen if you stopped constantly reassuring him and changing yourself to please him?

Point blank...tell him you won't discuss old events anymore as they are insignificant and f he still wants to talk about it to see a therapist. Tell him if he doesn't trust you there's the door, you've had enough.

Its an ultimatum. Trust you, stop the crap or leave. You've tried appeasing him and you can never do enough, now it's time for him to get over it or see a therapist. There's a tiny chance he might be shocked enough to do it, but more likely he will resist you being a whole person.

And fuck the curfew crap.

No-one's calling you names or hitting you in the face, honey, and it's obvious to me that you've made huge strides in overcoming the hurts and harms that were done to you in your younger years when you were powerless and defenceless.

You don't need to be in the UK to do the Freedom Programme as you can do it online here: www.freedomprogramme.co.uk/sample-online/index.htm

Went back to my journal entry from 2 days ago and I accurately predicted his exact response to me pulling him up on something. He explained that he was sorry he had done it but that he treated me that way because he was afraid I was cheating on him.

Feeling sad and old. Wish I had just shagged around the whole time... would have been the same result anyway. Sad

He is jealous, controlling and manipulative. Anything else from this list?
30 signs of emotional abuse
(There's some good advice in that article, too.)

"most of my counselling time has been spent trying to recover from incest"

This explains why you've found yourself in an abusive relationship. I do think you need to bring it up in counselling as it's very relevant. What happened in the past is affecting the way you deal with things now.

Theres only about three things on that list that he does. He worries a lot about respect and is easily slighted and there was one other thing I can't remember now. He very rarely says a word wrong to me. He's generally very supportive and reliable and so on.

He's mostly pretty wonderful. We have so much in common and share so many lovely things... but...

I just can't cope with the constant suspicion anymore. He wants me to be honest with him but then as soon as I am (eg am having lunch w colleague) I start noticing that he is taking it on as tinfoil hat fodder. And if I am not honest (skip telling him about lunch) then I feel shit and if he does find out then there's more suspicion all over again. I can't win. It makes me just want to withdraw from him... which... again... more suspicion. It's so destructive.

Watching him today with our eldest... he is so loving. I hope so much that the conversations we have in the next few days don't change that. I feel very shaky and sad

Ugh just read the list again and it is more than 3 things actually. If I stretch a bit it's closer to 10 or 12

He's not going to be satisfied until he's ground you down and when he succeeds he'll berate you for not being the life and soul of the party.

Do the Freedom Programme online and then, if you're still inclined to stay with him, give him an ultimatum that sounds as if you mean it which is most probably one that is delivered in a cool, calm, and direct manner and states that his continual suspicion is causing you to lose respect for him and is beginning to erode the love you feel for him, and that if he doesn't take steps to rectify this situation you'll have no alternative but to leave him.

One thing that always frustrates me in these threads is the sense that the man is doing it on purpose. I don't think people mean that, but it's how it comes across. And for the woman, who loves her h and is sympathetic to his issues, that's hard.

But, the thing is that while he might be doing these things unconsciously, he is doing them. He is grinding you down and ensuring that more and more he has control. Yes, he's doing all this because he has issues of his own and is clearly very insecure but that doesn't change the fact that he is harming you and your relationship. And his unwillingness to seek help externally or to listen to an independent third party means it's unlikely to ever get better.

I am sorry you are going through this but you do need to talk to your counsellor. And you need to think long and hard about whether you will allow this to continue. What is he teaching your children? Do you have a daughter? Is she learning that all women are sluts who should be kept home for their own safety? Do you have a son? Is he learning that he should never trust a woman and that is role is to control the women in his life?

I would ask him directly: If you feel I'm so untrustworthy, why are you still with me? Staying with someone while telling them they're not good enough is incredibly cruel. He must enjoy it or get something out of it on some level.

I hope so much that the conversations we have in the next few days don't change that

What conversations? Are these the conversations that you hope will make him realise that he is unreasonable and must change his behaviour? Haven't you done that a thousand times before?

How about no more talking. Just action. Go out whenever you want. Don't send a photo.

If he ever accuses you of cheating tell him that is an offensive lie and you refuse to listen to such nonsense any longer (and do not attempt to convince him you are not a cheater, he isn't interested in rationality).

He can choose how to sort his own anxiety out, it is his problem and he is a grown up. He is perfectly capable of deciding to go to counselling if he wants to.

You don't need to do anything other than continue being faithful and start going out a lot.

It is heartbreaking that your examples of your appalling behaviour are absolutely nothing of the sort.

The conversations I'm referring to are the "we are not talking about this again you need to find a counsellor for that" variety. A sea change is underway so every new conversation, even the most mundane, will stress us both out. I am unable to speak much to him or be in the same room as him right now which obv is not how I am usually. And I'm hoping he won't take it out on the dcs by being cold to them to spite me.

I'm not stupid, I'm painfully aware that I cant talk him round. I am very good at stating a case logically, and I'm good at appeals to emotion when I have to be... and if I can't convince him for 10 years running that I'm faithful to him, despite all my devotion, then nobody can.

He said to me very recently that I must reassure him more... I balked because I know that anxiety is multiplied by reassurance and I don't want to legitimise his thoughts, but reluctantly agreed. I am going to have to renege on that though. I can't feed this crocodile anymore

I have a whole day ahead of me now and I'm worried about how I'm going to get through work without crying. Cried all evening y day.

I posted another thread here over a year ago under a different name aND went back and read it.... we had had a very emotional conversation where he had apologized for being jealous and projecting things onto me and had told me to just live my life normally and stop worrying about him being jealous. And I actually told him then that I was worried to follow that because I thought he would eventually just get too jealous again and it would destroy us and we would have to start again. And he actually got annoyed with me "stop holding it over my head just try, I am dealing with my jealousy". So I did, I started going out on girls nights sometimes, and having lunch with my boss/work mates (previously would only go in a group), and so on ..

And guess what
I ws fucking right all along.
I mean I'm glad I started to loosen the hold. It showed me how little he (and I) had to fear.

But now here we are in this mess back at square one where I'm asked to reassure and modify myself to keep him comfortable. It's just awful and I can't do that.

When we do talk about the fact that we aren't going to talk about it, I will bring up the conversation last year (briefly) to point out that we are just going around the fucking mulberry bush now and he has to pick a lane or he's going to lose his mind.

Cailin I have asked him directly many times and he has given varying responses including, "you are being manipulative asking that", "I thought it would get better over time" "I married you because I was going along with what you wanted". His thing is that he can't understand how I can't try harder and reassure him more.

It's v hard because I know he doesn't understand at ALL how much head space he already has in me. I lkterally cant give any more. My friends already raise their eyebrows at me bothering my phone all the time, fretting when he calls, etc.

He has gone out until all hours (2-3 am) a few times in the last few years... I never even ask when he will be back. I text him because I assume he wants that (since he wants me to text him) and he usually doesn't reply. I don't say a word because... honestly I don't spend time worrying about what he's up to! But he'll say that's because he's basically trustworthy and I'm not. In our relationship that's just become a self evident truth. It's sad because I'm a good person.

Recently his jealousy has started to center around me at work... but the joke is I work in an office cubicle and don't even have a car to jump in to have a tryst... he works alone from home all day with a car to use as he pleases! I pointed out that he has much more opportunity to cheat than I do... he dismissed it "women don't date men with child car seats in their vans" I said of course they do... he just refused to accept that. Makes me crazy :(

"I'm hoping he won't take it out on the dcs by being cold to them to spite me."
OMG, what kind of monster would do that?! It's seriously fucked up. The fact that you worry about him doing it speaks volumes about what an abusive cunt he is.

Honestly, he must have brainwashed you very effectively for you to read that list of signs of abuse and think he only does three of them. I'm glad you re-read it and realised it's actually at least ten. (I could tell you more than ten based on things you've said in your posts.)

For the love of God please reclaim your life and your sanity and do whatever you need to do to free yourself from this man, mentally at the very least, until you feel ready to physically leave.

Look up Lundy Bancroft's books and contact Women's Aid or the local equivalent.

There's a saying that bypasses me at the moment, but it's basically everything he's accusing you of could quite possibly stem from the fact his guilt and denial. I now wonder if there's another woman in the background.