Why ARE some men so horrible to women?

[jezestbelle]

I recently posted about an awful weekend in Paris essentially spoiled by street harassment or other womens sad stories about it. I have to admit it has kind of coloured my view of men as Ive returned to London and to work. I am not naive or stupid, I know that most people do not engage in this kind of behaviour, but Im just really trying to fathom why, what it is they who do it get out of it. I mean if occsaionally a woman cracked and said ok then I will go to bed with you as a result of catcalling or whatever well I still wouldnt agree with it but you could see a certain logic..but I refuse to believe that has ever happened.
Another thing Ive noticed is women I think are almost self hating and almost gravitate to men who treat them badly, again kind of unfathomable... Also am kind of fearful of the male sex drive right now more for my lovely DD than me. If it really is as powerful as they say can it actually be controlled? I know I may sound paranoid but this is where my head is at. I should add that I do know some really lovely kind and genuine guys who would never dream of harassing a woman, I am even wondering about them is it just that they have supreme self control or something?

I worry about my dds too.

I have worked in predominantly male enviroment and the bull shit I used to hear was appalling, especially when they didn't know I was ear wigging.

I don't think all men are like a dog with two dicks but a lot are.

Oh and to answer your question - because they think they are clever enough to get away with it.

Were you abused in Paris for wearing skirt? That happens all the time my friends living there were saying. There are no go areas in Paris they say.

It is sometimes utterly mind-boggling, isn't it? I was sitting in a park the other day and a (not very attractive, older) guy came up and asked me outright if I wanted to have sex with him there and then. I found myself wondering if any woman, ever, had rewarded this strategy with a "yes, please, how lovely of you to ask, I am SOOOO flattered, Hurrah!" response...

I wasnt wearing a skirt and as I am my friend are in our 40s we didnt get the worst by far. The younger women I met had got shocking treatment and no I dont know if it was because they were wearing dresses, i dont think so

Its because not all men are dicks.

Some men are nobheads. Some women can be knobheads too.

If you do not want your DD to be drawn to a knobhead then teach her self worth. Instill in her the confidence to stand by her own judgement and instinct.
Teach her that she can be successful by her own merits and a man in her life is an added bonus not her reason for living.
Most women who end up in abusive relationships are there because they suffered abuse/neglect/trauma in childhood. They are there because the only male relationships they knew were abusive, DV between their parents, substance abuse, many abusive uncles, a mum who could I still self worth as she had none of her own. The reasons are endless.

All you can do is give her the platform from which she starts from. After that it is up to her. Try not to worry OP.

Most men are horny most of the time And most are not sophisticated or controlled in the way they seek to satisfy this urge. Across the animal kingdom males generally approach females in a sexually aggressive way.

I know that evolutionary biology is not given much credence on Mumsnet, and yes, men 'should' be able to behave in a way that respects women. But in reality most men Want Sex Now and can be direct in trying to get it.

My response to the men who will shortly post to say they're not like this: the fact that you're on Mumsnet means you're not representative of men in general.

It's very sad what you experienced Some men are cocks, some are not BUT most are not in my experience

Some men are nobheads. Some women can be knobheads too.

^ this

I dont think most are. My DS is not and neither are his friends for example. But I just dont understand why some are. It is not as if it gets them sex or romance or even the respect of other men, is it? I read a book by Dervla Murphy where she talks about realising after a sexual encounte what an effort of will it took the man in question who she had been with chastely for a while, not to act sexually before. But now I find myself looking at male colleagues and acquaintances wondering are they just strugglng to hold it in all the time, and what do they think when they hear about women being harassed-abused etc

On street harassment I think they do it because they can. Sometimes they do it as a male bonding thing, others do it because they enjoy making women and girls uncomfortable and maybe a bit scared. There is an element of reminding women that the out doors is for men and while they are allowed to be there, they have to accept male intrusion, rather than being allowed to get on with whatever they're doing. Some who target girls around 12 to 16 or so, are expecting a "result" they think they might be able to find one who is native enough or scared enough or reckless enough to go with them.

There's a whole load of stuff around it really. Many don't actually want or expect anyone to say yes, that's not why they're doing it at all.

On the rest of the op, I don't think most men are awful by any means. And when looking at women in relationships with abusive men, looking at why the men are abusive as well, seems sensible.

Naive not native! Sorry on phone

I think they know it wouldn't be successful, they just like the power trip and control over making a woman feel something. I sometimes feel on another planet though, I know loads of men and not one would behave like this, they would be embarrassed. Who are these animals and who is raising them?

Who is raising them indeed? Noone is born like this are they? It really saddens me how much this drowns out the nice bit of the ongoing human dialogue between men and women. How different life would be for our DDs if there was NO and I mean NO domestic violence and no harassment at all anywhere. Is this a naive hope?

It's society as well isn't it, this stuff is not considered "serious" it's "a bit of banter" and so on, when it happens on the street people don't react with horror like they would if they did something really genuinely socially unacceptable.

I do think it's got better since we were young though, and of course there's countries where it's way way worse. All comes from the same place though, however prevalent / severe it is.

I think the inadequacy comment is key..you rarely associate such destructive behaviour with secure and confident men. But if we accept there will always be inadequate men around how to ensure they accept their limitations without taking it out on others?

Some men who do it are young and attractive though.

I don't think that inadequacy is the sole reason, I think there are various reasons. Some men who do it are inadequate, some just think they have the right to talk to women like that, some the woman is entirely irrelevant it's about bonding with their friends and so on.

I always think it's a mistake to say the men who do any of this stuff are not "normal" because the sheer prevalence of it means that a lot of men are doing it and they aren't all weirdos. Also in some countries where it's much more prevalent it isn't that they have more men who are inadequate etc it's just seen as more standard behaviour so more men do it.

Which raises the question I guess which a pp mentioned - how many men want to do this stuff but realise it's not acceptable and so don't? Or, if you are raised in a society and in a group that sees this as genuinely unacceptable, does that really mean that a person who would happily do it in a different circumstance, really sees it as terrible behaviour? I'm drawn to the second point I think, that they genuinely see it as awful behaviour. So nurture is more important and nature has little to do with this.

I suppose this is where the internet is revealing about what people really think. And women do get a lot of sexist abuse, hassle, threats etc. So, that might go towards the answer as well.

Yes women get sexualised comments, threats, and so forth. It is quite a well known phenomenon. Haven't you heard about it?

So very similar to street stuff really. While men might get an unpleasant comment or someone being aggressive or whatever, they are unlikely to get a group of men shouting at them from a van to take their top off, or a man whispering "I'm going to fuck you" in their ear at a bar, or whatever it might be.

Does that help explain?

One man I talked to said he was mocked and shunned by other men when he did not join in the "ciao bella"s while working in Italy. It didn't make him start doing it, but maybe the more weakwilled do do it so as to be accepted by other men. My DS is possibly the least likely man on the planet to harass a woman in any situation and has sometimes felt a bit ostracised from groups of his peers for being as they see it uptight. All so very sad isn't it?