If you get little or no affection in your marriage but do not want to leave

[Donotknowhownottomind]

what do you do ?

We are on holiday and the whole issue is really staring me in the face.

Literally h never touches me or when he does it is such an occurrence that I almost remember the date it happened.

Yet he is very touchy feely with the kids which highlights even more how much he doesn't touch me.

Night after night he will sleep in the same bed as me without touching me. Once in a blue moon he might initiate sex but mostly it's me - rarely though as the whole thing is a bit soul destroying. When that does happen it's mostly good.

We are now on holiday and have somehow ended up both sharing beds with the dc (who do not want to sleep in the same double bed) which has really really made me feel lonely! At least at home we are in the same bed (even though that is also very lonely - for their never to be an extended hand unless I do the extending).

I have told h how I feel many times. Have also posted about this before.

So if leaving is not an option, what do I do ?

someone yes I am sure people get used to shared care (and I don't mean to offend anyone) - I worry it would be no care though .

Is it ok for these children though?. Look at this from their point of view; what sort of relationship are you both modelling to them?. Is this really the sort of marriage you would want them to replicate?. I should bloody well hope not!.

You really have no say and yours is not a marriage of equals. The house is only in his name as well and that does rankle with you and rightly so.

What did you learn about relationships when growing up?. Is this really what you envisaged for yourself?.

I doubt very much that you would be sadder if you were apart; I think you would have new found freedom that he has never given any of you.
Overt affection to the DC at your expense is very damaging psychologically to both them and you (they can and do see that he never hugs you). He regards them as his property and his alone.

I honestly think that if you were to separate from him he would not want to continue to play any real part in their lives. He is never going to be reasonable on anything. It could also be argued that he does not really do much now for them; you do all the donkey work.

All this man really cares about is his own self and getting his own needs met; I would think that one or both of his parents are similarly minded if you were to look closely at them as well.

I am not offended because I have been where you are and the thought of being separated from my DC for even a single afternoon was unbearable and frankly I don't know how I did it without having a mental breakdown. But you do adjust.

What are the things that are causing you to fear that it would be no care? Honestly, I thought the exact same thing at one point. If you can tell us what is making you think that, we can try to break it down for you.

Attila - I know you speak wise words, but as always the truth is so much more complicated.

My DH and I have had a lovely day out with the kids today. That would not happen if we were not together.

We are financially secure and the children are physically and emotionally secure. That would not happen if we were not together.

My son is just taking his first tentative steps toward independence (far later than you would expect!!!!) and it would send him back possibly years in his emotional and mental development.

All in all, I'm just not prepared to risk my marriage. I love my husband. yes, at times he is grumpy, at times he is controlling. but there are times, when he is kind and fun (in his own sort of grumpy style)

But I said for better or for worse. And I bloody well meant it.

Iam I have waited to reply until I could use my laptop, as my phone is too difficult to type much on. I hate to think of anyone being stuck in a situation like you are describing but I am absolutely not trying to push you to ltb, I just want to encourage you to see that it's not a straightforward case of "you suffer but the kids are fine" or vice versa and that you do have options, even though they are shitty options - and to explore those other options fully before you resign yourself to living with this man forever.

Talk to a solicitor to inform your understanding of your options. Most do a free initial consultation. If you are the main carer of the children and your son has particular needs, you may be able to get an order entitling you to occupy the house until he is older or until those needs can be met in some other way. Those orders are becoming rare but in your case, it might be an option. Or it might be that you and your H can arrange your lives so that your son occupies the house all the time and the two of you time share there... but from what you have said, I wonder if your H really wants the work of looking after a child with additional needs at all (or any child for that matter)?

If you haven't already, tap into your networks and the specialist support groups here on mumsnet to discuss how best you could support your son in the process of moving and to find out how others have coped, because people with additional needs often have to move and there must be a wealth of knowledge around how best to deal with that. While I accept that it might be incredibly traumatic for him to move, if your house was full of asbestos or something, you would go without question because the immediate danger to you all would be too great. The behaviours of your H towards you is something more insidious but it is still very harmful to your mental and physical health to be deliberately neglected. People who are abused and neglected over long periods can develop physical symptoms such as extreme weight loss and organ damage caused by stress, as well as depression and anxiety, as I am sure you will know. And anecdotally I saw a massive change in my DC's personality as time passed following my split from his father; I had thought he was fine and not affected but the reality was different. He was witnessing neglect and abuse by one parent of the other and that was the main motivator for me to leave. This "But think of the children!" line is often used as a stick to beat women with on these threads and that is absolutely not my intention, honestly I have been there. In the same vein, family days out that are fun are no reason to stay, so just draw a line through that item on your list of reasons not to leave! I have lovely days out with my little family unit all the time and the greatest day out on earth wouldn't be worth spending one more minute in the company of my ex for I can assure you.

I don't know if you have read Pat Craven's excellent book "Living with the Dominator" - if not, download it on kindle it is pretty cheap. It has some great illustrations by Jacky Fleming and the cover illustration is a guy proposing saying, "MARRY ME - for better or worse" and the woman is saying "how much worse?" This. You are not signed up for absolutely any horrible behaviour your H decides to subject you to, just because you took marriage vows.

Thought I would just update everyone- I did post on this thread a little while ago- as someone who didn't want to leave, but was dealing with little/no intimacy. We've just had our first relate session- which we talked about this a lot. Without going into too much detail- our first lot of homework is to try and be more affectionate with each other (she called it 'fake it to make it'). She likened it to trying to smile when you're feeling low- and that it can sometimes help brighten things by doing so. It sounds too simple- but I am going to give it my best shot this week, and hope he does too. My situation doesn't sound as bad as the OP- so don't want to belittle that- but really hoping that this will either make us (or I'll have to reluctantly accept it may break us).

Either way we need a conclusion as the limbo land of no affection is grim. It did however, take me to speak out that I was miserable with his behaviour to get us to go to Relate.

I'm really sorry but I haven't read the whole thread (though I only have a page to go...). I couldn't take any more. Of the agony And I'm only reading about it, not living it...

Some of yous say it would be 'crazy' to end their utterly soul-destroying marriages because of this. Crazy? No, it wouldn't be crazy. Isn't the desolation of being consistently rejected physically not enough? What about your needs? You say you wouldn't do it to the kids - but what you're doing/accepting is bleeding straight into the kids, whether they know it or not. It's worse for them if they don't know what is wrong: they WILL be absorbing this agonising dynamic. And will no doubt go on to replicate it. As has eg Iam (I'm not going to call you the rest of your NN)

There seem to be a few different perspectives: at one end the loving husband who has issues about sex/nudity, ashamed of sex. Sex therapist! As a condition. He wouldn't be the first. Then, at the other extreme end, there's eg Iam who is married to an abuser. Iam: you think he is more powerful than you but he is not more powerful than the law: by law you are entitled to at least half of all assets in the marriage; the courts ensure children of the marriage are housed, preferably in the family home; ESPECIALLY SN children. It is highly likely you would get the house for the duration of 'tasmanian devil's' childhood, at least. Then you wouldn't have to clear up the mess your vile husband leaves in the kitchen while he insists he leaves the house in a leisurely fashion, unencumbered by his children and prisoner slave wife. You would also get substantial eg DLA for your boy and also carer's allowance. Substantial, in short.

You have to get it Iam that he is NOT as powerful as you seem to think. Yes he is a vicious shit but he is not powerful when it comes to the law: he would have to bow and that's that. The law will protect you and the law is much more powerful than him. At least go to a family lawyer, get your first free half hour, to get an idea of what you'd be entitled to if you split. The fact he shows zero interest in ds, would most definitely sell the house from under ds to punish you, would be part of your application to ensure he doesn't get unsupervised access. Your husband LOATHES women - and you're getting that hatred neat.

An essential stop would be to go to the Freedom Programme - childcare available at many so you can get on and concentrate. Find a Freedom Programme Course near you . It is an excellent course, second to none. Can't recommend it highly enough. It gives you info (about abuse, the law), therefore courage, therefore power. You get a lot of support from very skilled facilitators as well as from the other women on the course facing the same shit.

I think to tick off boxes it would be a good step for all yous who are dying inside to do the Freedom Programme, just to check you are not in an abusive relationship. It wouldn't hurt and imo nothing is too much trouble to ensure you are no longer subjected to this agonising dynamic.

Take yourselves seriously. What you are enduring is torture - plenty reason to get out.

(sorry for being emotional. It is just so painful to read your stories)

In answer to the initial question asked of "what to do if you don't leave?", I would say mentally start adjusting to the fact that at some point the relationship is likley to end anyway and in the meantime invest time in yourself - and indentity - outside of your marriage.

I am in the early months of a 'co-parenting' arrangement (offered to me as an alternative to divorce) and, having gathered up what remains of my self esteem, I have set about re-establishing old friendships, block booked time with a personal trainer and am looking into new interests that I've never got around to before. I also work a lot less outside of 'normal' hours.

It's not a long term solution (and seeing your spouse happier as a result of not being 'with' you does intensify the lonliness) but I have decided to use this time to cement the relationship with our youngest (only 2) and make sure that when it does go tits up, I will have something of my own life established.

I should add that my wife and I have never really argued much (part of the issue apparently!) and whilst I do believe I deserved better than this, I have (so far at least) been able to set aside any resentment to the extent we can have genuinely fun times with our kids and they are blissfully unaware.

Incidentally, to the poster who mentioned the loss of the family home: take up the advice to speak with a solicitor. The unofficial steer offered by a solicitor mate of mine was that your kids need a home (ideally their existing home) and primary carer goes with kids... so, as the bloke in a divorce scenario, it would be "hello bedsit!"

Interesting post Nfifty.

I think I'm heading for a similar set of circumstances. To be honest the bedsit doesn't really concern me too much, I'd be content to drop my standard of living to keep the DC settled. It's the guilt that would come with being a Non Resident Parent, you'd always be "the one that left".

Also, I suppose, not just the guilt of leaving the DC, but also of leaving DW. I do a fair amount at home, ironing, cooking, cleaning, night settling, breakfasts, bathtime etc. All that would be left to DW because kids and bedsits aren't really compatible. At the moment at least there is the option for her to have child-free time (evenings and weekends at least, I work FT), lie-ins at the weekend (I'm the lark, she's the owl), post-split there would be far less opportunity unless paid childcare was used, but that wouldn't be financially viable.

Not sure how any of us would cope with that really.

The practicalities of screwing up what is a pretty good family seem a bit overwhelming. As a previous poster (or maybe it was another thread) said, when you parent well as a team, you're pretty good friends and generally get on well as anything other than lovers it seems an awful lot to throw away for what is essentially a selfish desire...

It's not a selfish desire it's a basic animal instinct and a normal part of a healthy adult relationship. If you are being made to feel like your craving for physical intimacy is selfish, there is something quite seriously wrong imo.

Springydaffs that is an excellent post.

Good grief people. Divorce is not necesarily a bad thing but like weddings you need to save and plan for it. Work in your self esteem, and take steps to get some financial independance, get a job, investigate options. You are already alone doing mostly everything for yourselves, you may be surprised to find out how lovely and easy life can be after a split.

It took me 5 years to decide I wanted a divorce, and another 3 to put things in place in order to survive on my own. But it was worth it, dealing with DS and the house chores became a doodle even when I was working full time. I admit I will never have as much money as I had when I was part of a couple but I have been very happy, my life is full of joy, good friends, affection and hope, so the only thing I can say is that there is only one life, and you should live it not bear it.

Interestingly, it is far more difficult to take the decision to split than dealing with the consequences of it.

The problem is I don't think I could stand the sheer trauma and pain of divorce. Or how adversarial it would be. A lot of the time things rumble on ok and I am glad to be part of this family (despite things not being set up in a way that would make me feel less anxious and more self determining). When things are difficult I do wonder about divorce yes but for lots of different reasons I have not been able to do it. Amongst others I don't think I could bear the "being an outcast to dh" nature of it .

My parents' relationship was much more affectionate than mine is. H is very detached in general and could quite obviously "do without me". In many ways he has his life set up as if he were single. He is responsible towards us, works hard and is obviously close and attached to the dc. As far as I am concerned, however, he is completely emotionally detached. His conversation with me is about the dc and things that need doing in the house. Oh and the news where i find some of his opinions .

I also think his parents were not affectionate (and his Dad, an alcoholic, left when he was about 15) - this is partly why he is so detached IMO.

(And I do sometimes wonder whether he had Aspergers - sorry awful clich?? and I do not mean to be offensive but some of his way of being is disconnected. Then I think nah he just does not particularly like me or value being with me. He is resentful of how hard he has to work I think but at the same time is very wary of letting me in financially or life plan wise. He is also divorced and bitter about losing their family home.

An example of how detached he is that he bought a property 1.5 years ago which I only found out about 9 months later - he lied to me when I found out until he could no longer lie (though he still claimed he was "trying to get rid of it" ). The whole thing is in the open and the kids and I know about it now (a retail premises) and have been there. However it transpires that during the time I did not know about it (and would ask him what he had been doing that day - he is self-employed) he did loads and loads of work on it. He was able to do all that as well as meet the people on the same street and get involved, without saying anything to us at home, for months. That I think, says it all. Our relationship was very difficult at the time, but still .

has Aspergers and cliche came out wrong

No he does not like you and does not value you in any way.

His non affectionate parents and his dad being alcoholic have had far more of a bearing on him; this is the example of a relationship they taught him. We after all learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents. All that is precisely why he is disconnected.

He is likely not to be anywhere on the ASD spectrum at all. I would call him emotionally abusive; he is abusive at heart.

so, as the bloke in a divorce scenario, it would be "hello bedsit!"

Not strictly true tbf

"The problem is I don't think I could stand the sheer trauma and pain of divorce. Or how adversarial it would be"

These though are still not good enough reasons for staying; what about the daily pain and trauma of that. Also no man is above the law (even though he may think he is). It would not surprise me in the least if he did make the whole legal process of separation as difficult as possible; they really do not let go of their chosen victims easily.

The emotional cost to you is still too high and any children you have will learn from the example you as their mum set them as well. I think this man has done a bang up job of taking your self worth and ripping it to shreds over the years. I remember you writing at the time about him buying a property without your knowledge and denying it all as well. Nothing has really changed has it since those times, he still does as he pleases whilst you flounder around.

What do you mean by this comment:-
"Amongst others I don't think I could bear the "being an outcast to dh" nature of it".

You're already pretty much an outcast in this marriage as it is.

Well I have posted recently on this board, and I feel like I need to be part of some club too.

For me, TheTigerisout's post makes sense.

Interestingly, it is far more difficult to take the decision to split than dealing with the consequences of it.

This is where I am today, right now and trying to deal with it.

I know first hand what rejection feels like. I have dealt with it for longer than I thought.

@shutthatdoor - yes, to be fair, I only asked for the general principles around the family home. I'm sure there are many variables, but as my wife is a full time Mum (i.e. no income, so unable to obtain a mortgage) and our children are still young, a court would (quite rightly) decide that they should stay and I should go. I'm sure if there are two incomes and bags of equity it can be different.

If it comes to it, I would sooner rent a room myself than see my kids have to move anyway, but the general point I was making was that it shouldn't be assumed that the family home will disappear along with the marriage - and it would be well worth taking advice.

NFifty, she would only be allowed to stay in the house if both of you can be housed to a similar standard. If you have a mortgage, she won't be able to keep it unless she can secure a mortgage herself (unlikely if she doesn't work). And you won't be expected to go to a bedsit so you can pay for both houses. The marital home is only kept if there are enough funds in the pot.

But as you say, the main question is where (house/area) would you like your children to live?

This is also a good reminder for all women/men who stay put despite the relationship turning meaningless. You may not feel strong to leave, but what do you think you will do if you are left?

I'm sure you will find all that strength you claim to be lacking and after a couple of years, you will be doing fine.

Hmm I thought that XH had aspergers for a while but it turned out he was a horrible cluster B narc personality bastard.

Having Aspergers doesn't help when it comes to read body language, so if you want a fulfilling relationship you need to spell things clearly and textually in your communication for things to work.

Aspergers people can be as affectionate or more as any other people. So please don't add to the negative stereotype, it is already very difficult for people with aspergers to deal with the traits of the condition.

Lack of affection and interest in the other person are far more likely to be signs that a marriage is about to end, than signs of Aspergers.

Well- just found out this evening that my 'D'H has been having an affair.
Guess that solves whether or not I want to leave or not. Also sums up his absence... what a shit bag.