At an impasse over finances and how to move forward

[Fraughtfinances]

Name changed for privacy. Trying not to drip feed and apologies if this is long.

Background: DP and I have been together 18 months. I have a teenage DD whose father is not involved and does not contribute financially at all (never has). DP has no children.

DP owns his own house (not outright - there's another 15 years on the mortgage). I own my house (23 years left on mortgage). I have slightly more equity in my place that he does.

DP moved in to my place earlier this year. He rented his place out and currently has tenants living there. His place essentially pays for itself (technically it makes a profit as DP will have a small tax bill to pay on it each year). The idea is to think about having a baby next year.

Prior to moving into mine, we had some work done on my house. This comprised structural work and a new kitchen. The work had been on the cards for later in the year, but DP is a keen cook and loathed existing kitchen, so paid for the work which ran to more than envisaged (c. £25k rather than the original estimate of £15k). My plan had been to remortgage later in the year and use the money to do the kitchen then. As it is, I'm in the process of re-mortgaging in order to pay DP back the £25k.

Foolishly, we didn't sit down and thrash out how financials would work between us when DP moved in. I'd previously had lodgers in the spare room to help with living costs. When DP moved in, we agreed no more lodgers as it would make the place feel cramped. I'd assumed, wrongly, that when DP moved in, we'd split the household bills 50:50.

In terms of overall financials, I earn £52k and DP earns around £85k. I have no savings and a small amount of debt (around £3000 on credit card). DP has significant savings, shares and no debt. My monthly outgoings (in direct debits/standing orders alone) are around £2500 (not including food or petrol). A significant amount (around £600 per month) goes on school fees (although DD has an assisted place). I have very little disposable income.

DP's outgoings are only what he contributes towards the household which is currently £475 per month plus some money towards food (which is still not agreed). DP wants to split the food bill three ways as doesn't feel he should contribute towards the food costs of DD. He doesn't contribute towards the mortgage as feels that if he did, he would want a share of the property. I don't want to put him on deeds, as he already has a property which is being paid for by his tenants.

We've been arguing over this for the past few months and still have no resolution. I feel that he is profiting from the relationship (essentially he can save in excess of £4k per month, whereas I have about £100 per month disposable income and no hope of saving). I have lost my claim to child benefit since he moved in (although it would have been reduced partially owing to my salary). He feels I want to use him to subsidise my lifestyle and use him as a gravy train. He also feels I am emotionally blackmailing him by saying how it upsets me that he won't contribute towards DD's food costs.

I would really like some recognition that we're living as a family and that we share some of the burden (and I have no expectation that DP should pay towards things like school fees, school uniform or anything like that). Even if it was a gesture along the lines that DP would pay for meals out (if we go out for dinner or to the cinema) or holidays. Instead, I feel criticised for the choices I've made and the lifestyle I've lead. DP is fundamentally a saver; I am not. I accept that. I accept too, that I've put things on a credit card and paid if off later, rather than saved for it beforehand. I have an excellent credit score (have never defaulted on anything) but do have a lot of stress about finances and lack of money. DP has never once worried about money.

We spent all of yesterday arguing - the issue continues to crop up again and again when I am down to my last few pounds and worrying how to economise before payday, and DP is angry that I'm in the situation. At the moment, I have around £300 to cover food/petrol/going out/school uniform until the end of the month.

I was awake for hours in the night, as was DP, just getting more and more upset and stressed. I feel utterly drained. I don't know how to resolve this. My friends think DP is being unreasonable. His friends think I'm selfish and grasping. I'm trying to arrange to see a counsellor so that we can talk things through in a neutral environment. I just can't see how we move forward without one resenting the other. Nor do I know how on earth we'd manage finances if we have a baby.

Any comments or suggestions most welcome.

I actually think he sounds very wise with money tbh. He has a savings pot, a house paying for itself, shares etc.

I feel very sorry for you because you have met a man who equates money with power. He wants to desperately hold on to what he has as it's giving him security. The thought of him spending one penny of his money on something that he deems not worthy (i.e. not on him or anything that would be considered an asset in his life) is making him anxious.

I know so many people like this it's not funny. I think he does not intentionally mean to upset you with the comments about dd - it's a black and white statement about her food and the type of things you are buying for her. In his mind it is wasteful and it's as simple as that. The problem you have is that dd is old enough to be upset by it.

He needs counselling to get past this. Maybe he wasn't well off when he was a child and he's terrified of going back to a position like that. He isn't rational when he behaves like this.

The problem you have is there is no way you can have a baby with this man when he's like this. Imagine what it will be like for you when you're on maternity leave and he won't give you any money because he thinks a coffee in Starbucks is a waste. And ready made food will be a waste and a new pushchair will be a waste and if you push it, it will make him anxious, feeling like you're walking on eggshells etc. and you'll end up breaking up.

See if he will go for counselling. If he won't, then you will have to cut your losses for the sake of you and your dd.

Your post of 10.12 today is really showing how badly you want that baby OP

And what made yr 15 year old DD insist she doesnt want you to split up.

FF the good news about real life is that unlike mumsnet land, you don't need to resolve everything within 24 hrs.

It sounds like you have made a little bit of progress, time will tell if it's enough or not. I'd take the extra money for now to be honest and discuss the deeper meaning at counselling.

My personal view is that if you didn't add a baby to the mix, then perhaps you might be able to trash out something that just about holds itself together, but having a baby would just be too tricky with your DP as you have such fundamentally different views on finances.

Before you add a child into the mix you need to discuss your income whilst on maternity and then discuss childcare costs. How does he think you will afford to split the difference if you hardly have any spare cash left over?

I'm sure he has thought about it though!

Having children with AS and subsequently realising both myself and partner probably fall into that category tends to make me see it everywhere. I was wondering if this might be an issue with your partner.
For the poster that doubted that someone with AS could be a lawyer and make 85K...... really?

But, if AS is an issue - it's not going to go away. Have you discussed the possibility with him?
If it is AS he will be convinced he is right. He will not be able to see nuances in situations. Somewhere along the way he convinced himself that your dd is not his responsibility financially, and while there may be some truth in that, taking on a partner with a child means just that, otherwise there will be bad feelings and resentment.
I wonder if you could have a discussion where you talk about AS and about his rigidity, and how that makes you feel. You will probably have to spell it out for him, many times, before he is able to look at things from a different perspective. Perhaps he never will.
You seem to feel he has lots of very good qualities, but is really inflexible about several issues. I know lots of people with AS that would be like that. Without understanding the AS part, it is probably intolerable for many people, as they may read unpleasant motives into situations where they are genuinely not there.
Having said that, it might not be AS at all.

I asked DP how his finances had changes since moving in with me - what he used to pay at his old place, and what he has to pay now. He said he had no idea and that it was irrelevant to the discussion. This is where I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. I do not, in any way, understand how the bottom line is irrelevant.

Okay, I may have an idea what has happened here.

Is it possible that your DP ran a cost/benefit analysis in order to decide whether or not to move in with you? If so, the process might have gone like this (in a massively simplified form)...

Costs: loss of privacy (33%), loss of space (33%), bad kitchen (33%) = 99.9%
Benefits: can rent out flat (40%), get to live with DP (50%) = 90%

So what he has then done is change the results by encouraging you to get a new kitchen. In his eyes, then, the decision to move in with you makes sense.

The problem here could be that he assumes you went through the same c/b analysis before asking him/agreeing to let him move in with you -- because this kind of process is probably how he navigates the world. He probably thinks you came to your decision based on your own criteria, just like he did.

And this is why he thinks his finances are irrelevant to the discussion because he cannot see why you would include them in your criteria when you made your decision about him moving in as your finances did not play into his c/b analysis (and if they did, that makes you a gold-digger, iyswim). From this, he can't understand why they have become an issue now.

Of course, you wanted him to move in ... because you wanted him to move in. And that was that.

I don't know if I have been very clear here. I can kinda see it because I have a friend that is very much like this and makes ever decision according to a c/b framework. He sees everything in life as a decision, even down to whether or not to love someone, and he assumes everyone else does the same.

How does he think you will afford to split the difference if you hardly have any spare cash left over?

he's already made plans for that...he said he's 'building up' his savings so he can go part time when baby is born, he intends to be the 'main' caregiver....op will of course be back at full time work asap to pay her way. he'll probably expect her to pay for any other childcare because as far as he's concerned he 'does 50% childcare around his work'. He's made sure his plans for the future are all in his favour and the power rests with him. when it all implodes/op sees sense, he will no doubt use his mountains of money to get a shit hot lawyer and 'win' residency for his child - that's how he thinks, and if they get 50/50 residency he will pay the bare minimum in maintenance.

as someone upthread said "the book's been written and read"....

Finances are always so hard. I'm lucky in that we are relatively well off but I always think it's the thing that causes the most stress on normal relationships

If he goes on your deeds, you should go on his. After all, its you providing an alternative housing option thats allowing him to have renters in paying his mortgage.

The thing is – I don’t see how him having undiagnosed Asperger’s makes things any better. You are only thinking about it at all because he has these really big disturbing problems. Diagnosis wont make them go away. You say that we want you to make “snap decisions” but you have talked about your own “biological clock” and that means making good choices under time pressure (well OK not 24 hours). But do you have time for counselling and diagnosis and figuring out whether or not he can be a good enough father and getting the therapies he may need to make that possible? You could spend a lot of time on this before finding out you can’t get what you want from him after all. Unless what you want is a baby at any price, including another disastrous co-parent.

Because he is no judge of his own abilities – he thought he was good with money but he is clueless. I wonder what else he thinks he’s good at! He seems emotionally immature, way behind his age and intellect. He has only the most basic understanding about sharing. He moved in with you and got financially entangled (selling plates, buying kitchens) when a more mature man would have made it easy to separate until you were both ready to commit fully to each other. What starts childlike and innocent can turn nasty when thwarted – and you’re seeing that already in the “atmosphere” when you disagree.

He might genuinely want to care for your DD if you died but that doesn’t mean he could do it well. It’s nice that he gets on with your DD but what really matters is, what’s he like when they aren’t getting on? Have you seen him cope well with that? You can’t just take for granted that he has the usual abilities to respond and adapt as a parent, not without evidence, not if you really suspect what you say. Asperger’s isn’t a set of trivial funny quirks. He’ll only get a diagnosis if they’re major and deeply life-affecting.

He might want to be the main carer for a baby but that doesn’t mean he understands what that means or is capable of doing it. He might see fatherhood as an opportunity to reprise his own restricted childhood – perhaps with extensions! – onto someone else. He’s already shown signs of that with your DD, and it could be a lot stronger with his own child. What practical caring experience does he have to go on, or is this all based on assumptions? He sounds like a little boy who wants a puppy and promises to look after it.

You said you don’t want to give up on him because you don’t have enough time. Well, do you really have time for all this? Stay or go, I don’t see how you’re safely going to have a baby in the near future. So when you're planning put that aside and think what’s right for the longer term, for your DD and for you.

I have read the full thread.

My short response is that your relationship with this man is just too complicated-and not just about money. I suspect that you will never achieve a day to day relaxed contentment with him. To cohabitate and maintain your mental health, imho, you will need to seriously emotionally detach from him (by that I mean to stop caring what he thinks about you and your dd).

My long answer...Well, he is manipulating you. He is also manipulating your dd (so he can use her as a tool to further manipulate you). He is dangling the future possibility of BABY to keep you hooked. You wrote (paraphrasing) that he was padding his savings account so he could go part time in his job so he could raise his baby. Where the hell are you in there? Nope, not there at all= you are invisible. Your maternal instincts to be with your baby will be declared irrelevant. As previously pointed out several times, he has a hook into your property by renovating the kitchen (what if he refuses to be paid back and opts for a percentage of the house value instead-a value that may rise beyond his initial investment)? You fell for that one hook line and sinker...which equals green light go to take full advantage.

He wants to reduce his work load while you fund his life style. This is the truth of your circumstances. He has told you this.

I can guess his stay at home parenting will involve hired child care to cover his 50% of his hands on duty. How you cover your parenting time will be irrelevant to him, but I can guess he won't be pleased if the little one encroaches on his his lifestyle- so the moment you return from work, you'd better be ready to contain/hush/ manage those eggshells 100%.

The Galloping Gourmet show is impressive. He has you quite enraptured with the performance.

The shift from penny pinching mango pots for your dd, to not knowing the bottom line doesn't add up, just does not compute. This has reminded me of the drama triangle. At first you were the perpetrator (being so awful with money-which is a lie). Now with the Poor Little Boy Act (I suspect pouting puppydog eyes along with it) has you shifted to the rescuer position. Oh! AS spectrum...bonanza! He can get a lot of mileage out of that one...And you volunteered it-even better.

As suggested earlier, please be in charge of your contraception. Although I wouldn't be surprised if he is making sure his baby doesn't happen until he is ready. Maybe he will want to wait until your dd is 18 and suddenly she should not be living with you anymore. Any hints at that yet?

I hope you are not wanting another baby to provide a sibling for your dd. The age gap is just too wide; they will not be close, you do know that, right?

I agree with the often mentioned plan of getting him paid back for the kitchen, getting him moved out of your home: pay particular attention to the relief you will feel. You can probably already anticipate that relief. Do not get trapped in the Sunken Cost "obligation to yourself" as Attila mentioned.

I am not sure why you need another baby when you are so close to being able to have stable finances (well not considering uni fees there are we?). Buy a puppy instead. I know that sounds condescending and dismissive, but I don't mean it that way. Sincerely, just get a dog-the 4 legged kind, not this dog of a bf you have.

Brilliant post Band.

This might get me flamed but ive been half wondering if he would try to manipulate a situation that would result in the DD not going to uni so that she could be free childcare if Baby comes along.

Ive seen similar happen when there has been an age gap between siblings.

Thanks Helena.
Yes, your point about the convience of having dd for childcare is pretty obvious too. The bf will have established such a connection with her that will make it hard for her to either detach and/or say "no" to him.

Now I will prepare to be flamed:
FF , your description, made in several posts, that they get on very very very well together kind of gives me some concern. On the surface it sounds great: happy families style . But with the bigger picture, I don't know...It seems a little odd that he would have quite so much interest in her when you are the girl friend. I don't wish to imply anything sinister (although it could happen) but imho, a normal guy would keep at an arms length from a 15 year old. Is he paying your dd attention in a way that encroaches on your time with him? And, again, this does not at all compute with begrudging her his money for food, or the pouts about having to share a bathroom or living space with her. Something is very fishy about this. No wonder you are feeling very uncomfortable about the circumstances here.

Having children with AS and subsequently realising both myself and partner probably fall into that category tends to make me see it everywhere. I was wondering if this might be an issue with your partner.

I only read the first two pages then skipped to here because a few posts in I wondered if the bloke's on the spectrum.

Im not surprised at all to see the mention of it pages later.

My brother has aspergers and he's so generous. he has a great job and he is too generous to me and my kids. So, Aspie does not equal mean!

Selfish and entitled equals mean thoguh!

ps, I agree with bands posts.

I would have loved to have raised my DC in a happy family with a father/husband but it wasn't to be. ACCEPTING it has made me as happy as a husband could have made me I now realise.

I mean this as kindly as possibly, but let go of the idea of a baby with this man. Rescue your own life first. Pay him back for the kitchen, get him out. Get a lodger back in to pay back the kitchen money.

You could go round the world soon if you wanted to. You'll be young and 'free' again soon. You could meet somebody lovely and have a good relationship rather than a last minute dot com baby.

If you become the stressed out workaholic mother to a baby with a sahd you won't eb happy.

So, Aspie does not equal mean!

Who said it did?

Rtft is exhausting and I can't take any more (p17. I've done well) so I'm posting having not read it all.

It is exhausting bcs posters are apoplectic with horror but then you post and the sum of your posts is, generally, 'but you don't undeeerstaaaand'. You sound under a spell. If you saw this revolting scenario in the cold light of day you'd be horrified too, no doubt.

As exhausting as the minutiae is, how come he thinks he can comment on DD's eating habits re £2 mango pot when he has refused to pay for her food? It's none of his damn business. Boundaries!

Yet he has made everything his business: he has rearranged your life to the nth degree - including, and this is significant in that it is a physical boundary, your kitchen. Your physical house. Yet he's only been around for a few months! Who does he think he is?

He is rearranging everything. Yet contributing nothing.

He has made it clear you are shit and not to be trusted; that you don't come up to scratch; that he has to physically improve you.

He genuinely (gasp) factors in that he should be compensated for 'loss of privacy and space' for which he should be compensated monetarily. Squirming as I type. How big of him to have made such a sacrifice This makes you, and dd, so cheap op, worth zero.

He barefaced disregards the law re shared habitation. He's bigger than the law?

He squirrels away money he does nothing with. Why would anyone with even basic common sense do that? He has his lover, his wife, and you will always be a grubby 10th. From what you've said you don't begin to make the grade on any level.

He gets on extremely [quote] well with dd? I don't like the sound of that if I'm honest. After 18m? I'm not suggesting anything sinister necessarily (please God) but that doesn't sit well with me.

He has literally carved things out to precisely how he wants it and is prepared to fight to the bitter end to get everything entirely on his terms. Counselling won't touch this btw; it's not how counseling works. And you are at your wits end after 18m and already going to counselling?

Something has bedazzled you here, something's got you by the throat and disabled your common sense. You already have a shit relationship behind you - that's not chance btw. It's not what anyone says but what they DO that speaks the loudest.

Excellent summary.

He's tight - life is and always will be miserable with a tight arse like that. Get rid

I'm having trouble reconciling the man who poured over spreadsheets with you re your expenditure (did that happen or did I imagine it in a post somewhere??) to the man who has no idea what his salary is etc etc etc.

This guy sure seems to talk the talk but his walk is way way different; he doesn't know it but he's showing you who he is but it doesn't matter because you're not seeing it. Repeating my earlier statement, send him back to his own house and if you're really intent on another baby go the sperm bank way.

I think you have the blinkers on with this one. I wish you all the best, but can't help thinking you're walking into a disaster.

This man will never change. Why should he? He's getting a great deal here and you're getting the shitty stick. If that's what you want, stop moaning about it and get on with your miserable life!

Sorry to be blunt, but this is page 25 of this thread and the majority of people have told you this is a bad relationship and you're running the risk of losing your assets, freedom and self respect. Worse, your choices and actions may be damage your DD at what is quite possibly the most difficult period of childhood - adolescence... For a fucking man! Not even a very nice man at that if the stuff you've posted here is all true (which I don't doubt it is). Wake up from this nightmare and get rid of this freeloading tightwad of a Bastard.

Op ..you are being enmeshed in a "sick system"
www.issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems.html
Don't recognise all of the symptoms yet ?
Add a baby to your current situation...

Run.. Run fast ...run hard

Some amazing contributions made here. Pity the OP hasn't bothered to reply, hopefully she's busy throwing that cuckoo out of her and DD's nest. kintsugi thanks for the link, hope the OP takes a look.

Kintsungi - that is a great link! God I recognized at least one former employer in that!

OP - I recommend you take a look at that link. It might, hopefully open your eyes before you bring a new little person into the world who is wholly dependent upon you.