At an impasse over finances and how to move forward

[Fraughtfinances]

Name changed for privacy. Trying not to drip feed and apologies if this is long.

Background: DP and I have been together 18 months. I have a teenage DD whose father is not involved and does not contribute financially at all (never has). DP has no children.

DP owns his own house (not outright - there's another 15 years on the mortgage). I own my house (23 years left on mortgage). I have slightly more equity in my place that he does.

DP moved in to my place earlier this year. He rented his place out and currently has tenants living there. His place essentially pays for itself (technically it makes a profit as DP will have a small tax bill to pay on it each year). The idea is to think about having a baby next year.

Prior to moving into mine, we had some work done on my house. This comprised structural work and a new kitchen. The work had been on the cards for later in the year, but DP is a keen cook and loathed existing kitchen, so paid for the work which ran to more than envisaged (c. £25k rather than the original estimate of £15k). My plan had been to remortgage later in the year and use the money to do the kitchen then. As it is, I'm in the process of re-mortgaging in order to pay DP back the £25k.

Foolishly, we didn't sit down and thrash out how financials would work between us when DP moved in. I'd previously had lodgers in the spare room to help with living costs. When DP moved in, we agreed no more lodgers as it would make the place feel cramped. I'd assumed, wrongly, that when DP moved in, we'd split the household bills 50:50.

In terms of overall financials, I earn £52k and DP earns around £85k. I have no savings and a small amount of debt (around £3000 on credit card). DP has significant savings, shares and no debt. My monthly outgoings (in direct debits/standing orders alone) are around £2500 (not including food or petrol). A significant amount (around £600 per month) goes on school fees (although DD has an assisted place). I have very little disposable income.

DP's outgoings are only what he contributes towards the household which is currently £475 per month plus some money towards food (which is still not agreed). DP wants to split the food bill three ways as doesn't feel he should contribute towards the food costs of DD. He doesn't contribute towards the mortgage as feels that if he did, he would want a share of the property. I don't want to put him on deeds, as he already has a property which is being paid for by his tenants.

We've been arguing over this for the past few months and still have no resolution. I feel that he is profiting from the relationship (essentially he can save in excess of £4k per month, whereas I have about £100 per month disposable income and no hope of saving). I have lost my claim to child benefit since he moved in (although it would have been reduced partially owing to my salary). He feels I want to use him to subsidise my lifestyle and use him as a gravy train. He also feels I am emotionally blackmailing him by saying how it upsets me that he won't contribute towards DD's food costs.

I would really like some recognition that we're living as a family and that we share some of the burden (and I have no expectation that DP should pay towards things like school fees, school uniform or anything like that). Even if it was a gesture along the lines that DP would pay for meals out (if we go out for dinner or to the cinema) or holidays. Instead, I feel criticised for the choices I've made and the lifestyle I've lead. DP is fundamentally a saver; I am not. I accept that. I accept too, that I've put things on a credit card and paid if off later, rather than saved for it beforehand. I have an excellent credit score (have never defaulted on anything) but do have a lot of stress about finances and lack of money. DP has never once worried about money.

We spent all of yesterday arguing - the issue continues to crop up again and again when I am down to my last few pounds and worrying how to economise before payday, and DP is angry that I'm in the situation. At the moment, I have around £300 to cover food/petrol/going out/school uniform until the end of the month.

I was awake for hours in the night, as was DP, just getting more and more upset and stressed. I feel utterly drained. I don't know how to resolve this. My friends think DP is being unreasonable. His friends think I'm selfish and grasping. I'm trying to arrange to see a counsellor so that we can talk things through in a neutral environment. I just can't see how we move forward without one resenting the other. Nor do I know how on earth we'd manage finances if we have a baby.

Any comments or suggestions most welcome.

My cousin was warned by her parents from a very early age, never to allow herself to be married and divorced for her money. She is a lawyer and this training has reinforced her inherited beliefs and values. She is a commitment phobe. It has ruined her life on a personal level. No dc, no marriage. Huge distrust and disrespect shown towards her unfortunate partner and no normal long lasting relationships.

Your p is unlikely to change as you must both be in your 30s at least. He doesn't sound head over heels in love with you or willing to compromise and put you first. I am so so sorry. Life is too short. Get rid and try someone else who is not a lawyer!

Well, DD may want to stay on, but OP can judge that at the time.

OP only has £3k of debt - any reduction at all in the £7200 will help her. My overall point though is that debt in itself isn't unreasonable if you know how and when you will repay.

I think he is mean, mean, mean. On £85k, he can afford to contribute a lot more than £500 a month to your living arrangements! And the thing about splitting the food bill three ways so he doesn't pay for your DD is positively Scrooge-like. I think it would be reasonable to charge him rent and half of bills while he's living with you. My guess is that half of your mortgage is likely to be less than he'd pay to live in a similar place if renting?

However, what really gets me is that he can see that you're upset and suffering, and he's in a position where he could relieve that with one stroke without even really suffering himself. If he paid half, he'd still have LOADS of money left over to save each month. I'm sorry, OP, but I think he's not only exploiting you - he's also really cold-hearted. I think you should consider very carefully if you want to keep this relationship going.

He needs to pay you rent. He in effect is taking the place of your lodger. He'd pay rent if he lived in any other house he didn't own.

The word cook lodger comes to mind. He wants his mortgage covered by his tenants and he wants to live rent free at your house.

I think its appropriate for you to cover the costs of your DD. However in relation to food, he will eat/drink a huge amount in comparison to her. So 1/3 isn't appropriate.

He's on 85k!!! Not 16k. He seems inappropriately tight. I would question what the future holds. If you gave a baby, how will childcare be paid? How will finances work while the children are young? What will happen with the mortgage? Will you be financially abused?

Tell your partner that you can't afford to keep him (you're down to pennies) and he will need to leave, so you can get a lodger in.

I don't think it is who pays for what or even how much money the dp is able to save from him renting out his place. Even if the dp gave an extra £500 per month it would not change the fundamental problem. It is the general attitude that he feels it necessary to quibble over a few pounds of the ops money here and there, to not split the food bill 50/50 and him constantly turning the spotlight on the ops finances that the problem stems from.

That attitude is not going to change how ever much money the dp gives the op.

It is interesting that the dp thinks the op and all women are "gold diggers" when all evidence points to it being him who should take the title in this particular case

Sorry just read entire thread!

How about moving to his house? Then see how things pan out. A baby doesn't need a garden.

Or simply work out how much better off you would be if you moved to his house. Take into consideration that he might charge DD rent for her room though!

Several points. My mortgage is £830 per month.

Re: DD's school. My long-term plan has always been that she would go elsewhere for sixth form (to a state sixth form). She is keen to do so. Therefore, two years with no school fees.

My credit debt will be paid off by March 2016. That will free up another £300 per month.

Anyway, as much as I can write this, and as little sense as it makes, DP's attitude isn't one that stems from being mean or seeking to take advantage of me. I appreciate that may seem incomprehensible, but that is the bottom line.

We spoke more last night. DP has no idea what his take home salary is, doesn't know what his outgoings at the previous house were and doesn't know how much better off he is living with me. He never checks his bank account as there will always be money in there. He doesn't budget. He doesn't shop around for good deals. He just knows he will always have enough money for whatever crops up. Apparently his parents are the same. Frankly, I've no understanding whatsoever of how anyone can just know there is enough money. I check my account daily, monitor what goes in and out, plan to avoid going overdrawn, shop around to save money. This is alien to DP.

I suspect DP may be on the AS spectrum. He has anxiety going through the roof, finds it very difficult to understand people and their perspectives, takes a very black and white view of everything and is bewildered by much of the world. On the flip side, he is loving, attentive, sweet, sensitive and I love him.

He's offered to up the amount per month to £675 and split other stuff 50:50. I'm reluctant just to say yes, since I know we need to address the root of the problem which isn't the amount, but the utterly bizarre attitude towards money that DP has. He cannot understand the idea of having a budget and keeping track of money. I cannot understand how, even if earning pennies, he will always have money in his account no matter what, and never, ever be in debt in any way. I've never met another living person who approaches money like DP does. There is no logic whatsoever.

So, after another sleepless night, we're still waiting for the counsellor to get in touch.

I don't want to call time on things yet. I really don't. Not because it's another failure of a relationship (though I admit that's something that bothers me). Not because of the horrendous hassle that will be involved if DP moves out (and which would necessitate me buying a whole load of cutlery, crockery etc since mine ended up going to charity when we merged household goods). But because there's something there worth fighting for, if we can get some kind of mutual understanding.

For those who are worrying about DD - please don't. She is happy, secure and gets on famously with DP. She is adamant she doesn't want us to split up. I think the fall out would be far worse for DD if we did break up - she is very, very close to DP.

I appreciate that many people want me to make a snap decision, end the relationship and move on. God - there's been so many threads where I feel like screaming in exasperation that the OP appears to be totally ignoring all advice. There is no guarantee things will work out. There is a lot to sort out. But I want to try and not walk away, at least not yet.

Ah, the wanting your dp to have a 'lightbulb' moment.

I remember it well.

It is almost 14 years to the day since I had a conversation with my DM about it.

I believed that as I was logical, factual and coming from a place of reasonableness, that his failing to understand me was a problem with miscommunication.

If only he would listen without interrupting,
If only there was a third party present.
If only he could/would.........

My dm stood firm.
But he won't
But he can't.

Over and over.

I finally got my lightbulb moment, but it wasn't from him...........

He's been my exdp for 14 years

Early on in the thread, you said I would be totally willing to give him control of family finances. But in fact DP has no idea what his take home salary is, doesn't know what his outgoings at the previous house were and doesn't know how much better off he is living with me. He never checks his bank account ... He cannot understand the idea of having a budget and keeping track of money.

So I sincerely hope you won't be putting him in charge of the family finances, since all he knows how to do is not to spend money. Not how to use money wisely, just how to avoid spending it.

So now you think he is on the AS spectrum. Does he think that? Does he acknowledge that his reactions are not those of most people? I thought his friends all thought you were selfish and grasping? Assuming he is on the spectrum, how is relationship counselling with a person with an undiagnosed
neurodevelopment disorder appropriate?

I think you're spinning, trying desperately to find some way to resolve this so it goes away and never comes back. So you can get back on track and move on to the next stage of the plan, to have a baby. I just don't see how that happens.

Can I ask why if he is so unconcerned with his own money does he have a problem with what you spend?

I think what people are trying to tell you is that after 18 months this should be a loved up, everything in the garden is rosy relationship. With the money you have coming in this thread shouldn't be here.

What you have written about his attitude to money, his proclamations that all women are gold diggers, his throwing the spotlight on your "incapacity" to look after your finances properly despite him not looking after his own, saying that he shouldn't be paying for dds food, saying that he could move back to his flat so you can get your finances straight and save money, how everything is irrelevant when you try to get to the bottom of his finances, even quibbling over a pot of mangos etc. Virtually everyone on here is trying to tell you they have read the book, its already been written and are trying to tell you how the story ends and yet you are of the attitude of well lets wait and see it might not turn out like that.

So it seems that this whole thread and all the replies has been a giant waste of everyone's time

Ok

Good luck

There must be a middle ground with managing finances. What about reading some alvin hall books on money management.

If the dp was so unconcerned with money why does he have a problem with dds food bill etc

Again op you have said one thing about him but his actions are saying the another.

If you were a few years down the line with kids, id suggest working cash out so that you had the same amount of spending money at the end of the month.

Having very narrowly escaped living with a man exactly like this I would say of course he knows exactly what his income, outgoings and overheads are! He is gaslighting you op, to doubt yourself and your capabilities. It was his renewed 'offer' that struck a chord with me, why not round it up to the nearest hundred? He has massive issues with money, as others have said, I'd ask him to move out.

DP's attitude isn't one that stems from being mean or seeking to take advantage of me. I appreciate that may seem incomprehensible, but that is the bottom line.

No, it's not the bottom line OP, it's what you choose to believe because you're in love with him and hope this relationship has a chance of working.

It turns out from your latest post that your partner is utterly shit with money and seems to be as bewildered by effective financial management as he apparently is by the modern world. I have a lot more money than he does and I shop around for everything. It's just basic competence. This is a man you were happy to hand over financial control to.

Crucially it shows that his arguments over heating, food, internet have nothing to do with economising they're simply an excuse to control you.

You're still taking the line that dd likes him despite the fact he refuses to take financial responsibility for her. Would she like him as much if she knew? What would that teach her about men and herself? Would she like him as much if you had another kid and he funded the kid but not her? Sure you can strong-arm him into paying for her, but that doesn't change the fact that he didn't want to, it will confirm his conviction you're after his money, and it will give him carte blanche to control her every move. Someone who does not voluntarily, happily take on financing their partner's child is not step-parent material full stop.

there's something there worth fighting for, if we can get some kind of mutual understanding.

If we can get some mutual understanding?? You've been together 18 months and you still don't understand each other, can you really not see you never will, and this relationship doesn't work?

You can hypothesise his anti-social qualities as ASD, anxiety, lack of experience, whatever, the upshot is the same: he is very screwed up, his attitudes are totally irrational and inconsistent, and he will continue to cause the most almighty amount of hassle.

I am not expecting a snap decision OP, in fact I think they're a bad idea. But I would expect an intelligent woman like yourself to start being fully honest with herself at some point.

I don't think he is unconcerned about money. Nor does he have 'no budget', his does very definitely have a budget. He gives you a certain amount, he 'knows' roughly what he spends because he doesn't vary it that much; his budgets himself £50 for fripperies but doesn't spend it. He knows he saves so he really doesn't need to worry about it on a day to day basis. When your daily expenditure is below your income, you have a nest egg and everything is reasonably balanced then you can take a more relaxed approach. It only matters if your have to make a large expenditure or your daily expenses increases.

I don't think he's unconcerned with money either.

But I do think he has less of a grip on finances that he's made out. It fits with his spending pattern: he's a scrimper and a splurger. He drinks tap water and wears thick jumpers yet blows big sums on windows, kitchens, coats because he can't be arsed to shop around or doesn't know how to.

It all indicates an emotional approach to finances rather than a rational, logical one.

The pattern indicates that he's happy to spend money if it benefits him, but not if he doesn't - internet he doesn't use, heating he doesn't need, diet cokes or chopped mango he doesn't consume himself.

She is happy, secure and gets on famously with DP. She is adamant she doesn't want us to split up.

You think that is a positive?

That she "is very close to" a man who judges you for having her and resents spending a penny of his money on her?

Are you for real?

You are allowing a teenage girl with no proper father to have these feelings towards a man who is crystal fucking clear that he doesn't see her as a member of his family?

The wilful blindness goes both ways in this relationship, clearly.

You will do anything but face the bleeding obvious. And you will do it at your daughter's expense.

I said above in this thread OP isn't listening to us.

She came here to find way to excuse his behaviour and convince herself that she is in the wrong and he knows.

Facts don't add up - she doesn't think it is odd!

I don't think this is a reversed AIBU but OP doesn't see basic lack of logic in this guy's reasoning.

Please OP - just read what you wrote and think WWYD if your DD had a partner who was behaving this.

costa bit harsh - I think the OP has come a long way from the outset. I bet she wouldn't hand over control of her finances to him now. Hopefully the replies have been of some use to her.

OP you said your DD is adamant she doesn't want us to split up. How do you know? Are you talking to her about these things? 'Adamant' suggests to me that she's been consulted, perhaps on more on one occasion. I don't think you should be talking to a child about your relationship issues at all. She's a child FFS. She deserves to be shielded from your personal problems as much as is humanly possible as you're her protector in this world. Hard I know if you feel you've no one else but still... And I know 15yos can seem very grown up but they are still babies. Importantly, it's not her decision to make. You can't stay with this man because she likes him.

I sort of understand (to a point) what Fraughtfinances is describing with her DP.

Before getting married to my DW, I'd rarely look at my bank account, rarely move money, and just assume that I'd have enough. Not from when I was earning very little, but I earnt more than enough to cover my costs and I don't spend very much money. I'd check my bank account if I was about to buy a holiday or similar and had very cheap tastes.

Thus far I've only been overdrawn twice in the last ten years, both times since getting married last year (one a side effect of getting a joint bank account as I hadn't moved all my direct debits from my old bank account fast enough, the second a side effect of going on holiday and it coinciding with a lot of other bills at the same time).

That said, I do understand what a budget is, but I get very very nervous when running down savings. It makes me very worried and I'd rather spread out the cost of doing things over a longer period in order to keep cash for longer. I have no particular reason for nerves over this (no issues growing up), but it just is part of who I am.

I can function with it though, it just stresses me out and worries me.

No suggestions on what really helps me (it still stresses me out), but just an additional data point.