BF using tinder to message both men/women

[upsidedownsmile]

Never posted before and this is going to be a long post so please be nice (but honest)

Two and a half years ago I met a guy and thought he was gay. He told me he was straight and explained about his past (which I feel I can't really go into) and explained it was firmly in the past and that he was straight. We got together and had a good relationship, but it was immature and we argued over silly things. We never broke up officially but he just cut me off and stopped speaking to me so I soon got the message. I went away to uni for the year and we met up and talked about what happened and got some closure.

About 6 weeks ago we met up again and had a series of serious conversations which helped us move on from things that were problematic for us in the past. Also, I think the time apart allowed us to grow up and we're no longer annoyed by the same petty things we were.

Everything was going really well, until a gay friend of mine found him on tinder. I've confronted him about it and he says he made the account when we weren't together and made it because he was lonely. I can't seem to get over the fact that he was a) using tinder and b) using it to find a guy. (Although he says he wasn't exclusively looking for a guy) There are other things that suggest to me he is attracted to men, his social media accounts seem to infer this all the time.

He has said he wants to work it out and sort it but I don't feel I can. I feel he lied to me about his sexuality because if he was looking for a man then he is either gay or bi-sexual. I have no problem with gay, or bi people, I have many friends who are and have never thought anything of it. However I know that I can't be with someone who is bi, especially in this situation where sexual activity with a man has previously taken place.

I don't really know what I'm hoping for. But I would appreciate hearing people's advice/opinions on it

I didnt say bi men are more likely to want to penetrate me.

I said, i am so repulsed by the thought of being penetrated that i will not have sexual relationships with someone who enjoys penetrating women.
Because i have this strong feeling, i understand other people having strong feelings about other types of sex, not based on "they might want to do that to me" but "im really turned off by that to the point where knowing they like it turns me off them"

Hth.

No, you're not discriminating against them by not having sex with them because no-one has a right to sex with someone else.

I'm trying to point out that what you have a problem with is identifying with bisexuality and expressing bisexuality, not bisexuality itself which if it was never expressed to you in any way would never be a problem for you. I'd like you to think about why you have an issue with the expression of bisexuality and why you confer certain characteristics on bisexual men as a result.

Gin - I understand that and entirely support the right to choose your own partner and think entitlement to sex is abhorrent. It doesn't mean the beliefs/fears that that reaction is based on are not prejudice though does it?

"Your reason for not wanting to be with a bisexual man is that you assume they would be part of a different culture to you and also that you assume they would bring their past sexual relationships into your current relationship or their attractions into your current relationship."

No, I didn't say that. I said in my first post that I probably wouldn't be able to explain it in a way that you understand. I explicitly said that I didn't think bisexual men bring their past relationships into a current relationship or their attractions into it. I said that quite openly. I tried to explain it to you but I simply think you can't understand it because you have a different pov. It's okay you know? You can feel differently to me. You don't have to call me names or accuse me of biphobia. You could choose to believe me. You don't. You're determined to pigeonhole me.

I don't want to be in a relationship with a bisexual man because they are bisexual. I want to be in a relationship with a heterosexual man. I am a heterosexual woman. I want to be in a relationship with somebody whose sexual desires are based upon heterosexuality. Somebody with the same sexuality as me. It really is that simple. Nothing to do with acts (that's another plane on which my relationships are negotiated). Simply a desire to be in a relationship with somebody whose sexuality matches mine.

In a heterosexual relationship your partner's desire to have sex with women will never match your desire to have sex with men.

I don't confer certain characteristics on bisexual men. I don't have a problem with the expression of bisexuality.

I don't know how many times I can say this.

In a heterosexual relationship my desire to have sex with somebody of the opposite sex, matches my partner's desire to have sex with somebody of the opposite sex.

Offred

You dont understand. More than once you said i think bi men are more likely to want to penetrate me anally, or that i think they are more likely to want to do sex acts that im uncomfortable with. I didnt say that, and while i accept my wording may have been ambiguous, now we have cleared it up id appreciate an apology for basically accusing me of thinking bi men are sexually coercive /a bit rapey.

I am also a bit fucked off that despite saying

-im bi
-the guy im fucking has had gay sex
-im not bothered by the thought of my male partners penetrating another man anally

You are still intent on insinuating that i have a problem with bisexual men

I'm asking what you mean. I couldn't understand why you'd raise the anal sex thing at all and still don't really. You said yourself that what you said was ambiguous.

Now I'm asking you why something being understandable means it isn't based on a prejudice?

I brought it up because its an example of being turned of by the thought of a sex act to the point where you cant have sex with a person who likes it.
Replace it with wanking off to porn if you like. Plenty on MN wont have a relationship with a guy who uses porn.

I dont see why youd assume it is prejudice?

Your example of rape victims fearing men is... i dunno. I dont like it much. Women who have been raped dont fear men in an "all men are rapists" way, but in a "i cant tell which men are rapists" way. They arent pre-judging men. They are afraid because they cant tell and being raped again is a fucking horrific thought.

But it involves prejudice in both cases. Since you can't know a man is a rapist or whether he has had anal sex in the past both things involve prejudices motivated by fears. Those fears may be understandable but they still involve prejudices. They are both motivated by fear based on trauma and do not relate to someone simply saying they wouldn't want to be with a bisexual man. And you can't have it both ways by saying it's understandable if people are turned off by gay sex but it isn't because they have prejudices about what having gay sex means, when it isn't them who is having gay sex, it's someone else.

And it isn't a case of me not understanding that people can be turned off completely by something. That has never been the issue. It's what is behind that that I'm questioning.

Bisexuality doesn't necessarily encompass sexual desire for the same sex. It often just means you find gender irrelevant in sexual relationships

I think gender always matters, even if it's not a binary male or female. I like males, females, and female to male trans people. I find them a particular turn on. I don't know what that all means, but the difference in genders is important to me sexually.

Offred, I understand your confusion. I completely recognise why you can't divorce the notion of prejudice from the notion of not wanting sexual relationships with somebody who is bisexual.

Bisexuality as a label tells you nothing about a person. There's no comparison. I can't say 'well I wouldn't have sex with a Tory either' because that's based upon the principle that I believe Tories to be incorrect in their world view. I can't say 'I can only have a relationship with somebody who wants children' because somebody's attitude to having children directly affects whether I can have children if I choose to be in a relationship with them. It's not about sexual acts. A heterosexual man can have a sexual relationship based solely on his own penetration. Its a fixed, immutable quality which carries no implications and I can infer nothing whatsoever from it about who a person might be.

The problem is that I'm trying to tell you about how I feel and not how I think. You don't feel the same way so you can only believe me or not. You can't feel the way I feel. You can only accept that I don't want to have sex with bisexual men and I have no prejudice towards bisexual men. I know logically, you want to hang my feelings on prejudice because otherwise you can't see a justification for my choices.

My whole sense of self is based on anthropological and philosophical notions of my own existence. Within this, there is the notion of 'other'. I am aware of what I am not and this informs who I am. I am not a man. I am not male. I am not homosexual. I am not bisexual. These are absolutes. They are intrinsic, fixed, inexorable facets to the person I am. The balance in my existence comes from knowing who I am, what I am and who I am not. My sexual attraction to others is built upon these foundations. I am attracted to the other. The other to me is not a bisexual man. It is a heterosexual man. It's how I feel. I can't explain it without sounding like a navel-gazing wanker. It simply is what it is. I identify as a heterosexual woman. I identify my sexual attraction as being compatible with heterosexual men. I am no more prejudiced towards bisexual or homosexual people than I am blindly complimentary towards heterosexual people.

All I mean lois is that you can't assume being bisexual means someone is actively sexually desiring of any particular thing. Some people are, some people aren't, there is diversity within the group which doesn't justify assumption about how bisexuality works for each individual.

Saul - it is not at all that I don't understand that you feel the way you do or support the idea you are allowed to exclude any partner based on anything from driving a yellow car to being violent. I just think you should examine the reasons for your beliefs about why bisexual people would not be likely to share a fundamental basis on which to build a relationship.

For people who are straight gender always matters. Not always for people who are bisexual, you are not a better or worse person if it matters or if it doesn't matter it's just how your sexuality works. And it's ignorant to assume that because gender is really important to you as a straight or gay person that it is really important to every bi person, cos it just isn't true.

I don't think you can make your sexual attraction change just by deciding to but I do think you can have preferences for how you express your sexuality based on your beliefs - some are helpful and some are hurtful.

Offred, I have examined the reasons for my beliefs. I've been sexually active for 17 years. I've tried to explain the reasons here. I am telling you categorically, it's not to do with prejudice. It's to do with what fits in my life. I identify very strongly in a certain direction. In fact, absolutely. I am sexually attracted absolutely too. I have examined, questioned, been utterly and totally honest and upfront about how I feel. It turns out, that I only have sex with heterosexual men because that is what I'm attracted to. I am 100% heterosexual. I am sexually interested in heterosexual men (I suspect this would include female to male transsexuals who identify as 100% heterosexual.)

But you can't know you have only been attracted to heterosexual men because bisexual men don't (always) carry a sign over their heads saying they are bisexual. Is it not more a case of you losing attraction to a man if he appears to or expresses an interest in something you consider to be gay?

You're sort of right, yes. Once a man declares himself bisexual, I am not attracted to him. It's not even so much about sexual attraction. As I said above, I only have sex with somebody if I am already in a relationship with them, have declared myself in love with them and we have made a commitment to each other and discussed many principles already. My head, heart and baser desires all have to agree. Sex to me isn't something so fleeting, it's a part of a huge decision making process. Which is why I'm able to make the sorts of decisions I'm talking about. Bisexuality is not sexually unattractive in itself. In that respect it's almost irrelevant. Sexual attraction is a strange, organic thing. It happens. My decision to act upon it is based on many factors. I don't have sex with people because I find them sexually attractive in isolation. That's one, small part of it and it is affected by what I know about that person.

You can say the same about any of the benchmarks I have and people not having a sign above their heads. I might find myself - purely in a physical way - extraordinarily attracted to a character in a film who is a gun-toting, aggressive assassin. As a pacifist, I'd never have sex with them in RL. I might be attracted to a character in a novel. He's not real. I wouldn't have sex with them either. Nobody has a sign above their head advertising the myriad things which I consider a no-no in a partner.

I would not have sex with somebody who identified as bisexual because I don't want a relationship with somebody who identifies as bisexual. To have sex with somebody, I have to be in a relationship with them. Bisexuality is just one of the things that means I wouldn't have sex with somebody.

I brought it up because its an example of being turned of by the thought of a sex act to the point where you cant have sex with a person who likes it.
Replace it with wanking off to porn if you like. Plenty on MN wont have a relationship with a guy who uses porn

Exactly the point I made a while back.

I can understand why people don't find sex with the opposite sex an attraction, or those who like porn, or anything really. They could even see it as a turn off because I feel that way about other sexual preferences or attitudes that are far so removed from mine (although don't feel that way regarding gay/bisexuality).

It doesn't take much for me to appreciate that if something is turnoff for me, others will feel the same about my preferences. That's fine, I don't see a rejection of my tastes as being an attack on me to warrant being called prejudice rather than preference. I feel sorry for those for whom this hits a nerve and they see it as such.

pocketsaviour, that was absolutely horrible. I'm not trying to be pretentious. Nor am I a quinoa-eating, earnest twat. I'm trying to explain my fucking life to people... It's actually quite upsetting to be roundly criticised for a fundamental part of who you are and how you live. And to be called pretentious for trying to explain it is doubly upsetting.

You might want to rethink your approach to life if you think that was being roundly criticised, Saul.

And I suspect the reason you're getting so upset is because you know you're being prejudiced, but it just doesn't fit your self image to admit it.

You know what? I'm prejudiced. I would never have sex with, or consider as a partner, someone from Wales. When I was in my teens, I was in a relationship with a Welsh man who was emotionally, physically and sexually abusive. So I exercise my free right, as a human, to be prejudiced and not have sex with or marry anyone Welsh.

But I own that as a prejudice. I'm not gonna dress it up and say "it's because we bring different energies to the sexual relationship" or "we need a shared frame of reference" (an argument frequently used by those against inter-racial relationships, FYI.)

(I would also question how much of a shared frame of reference you can have with someone who has exclusively fucked women, and someone who has exclusively fucked men...)

Nobody's going to force anyone here to have sex with a bisexual man, or woman. But just, fucking hell guys, own your reasons.

I don't fancy blonde men at all. I never have.

I think that's fair enough.

I don't discriminate against them when it comes to work, I haven't avoided serving them when I have worked in shops, I don't think unpleasant things about them when I see them on the street, I don't shout stuff at them, attack them or their children, I don't try to stab them or put dogshit through their letterbox.

All I do is a. not chat them up and b. not reciprocate when they try to chat me up

So if this not fancying blonde men thing is a prejuduce, it's not exactly a very world shattering one, is it. If we're going to talk about prejudice and discrimination, the actions it conjures up (and actions are important) are around negative consequences for the person discriminated against which are fairly serious. People stepping away, being unfriendly, not selling them stuff, not hiring or promoting them, attacking them with words or fists or objects.

If the only area in which you are discriminating is in your choice not to fuck a certain type of person, discrimination seems to be a terribly strong word. The impact on the person is they don't have sex with you, and they go and find sex with someone else (if they're lucky). And people do have sexual preferences, they do discriminate (if you will) when it comes to sexual partners on a variety of things. I don't think this can be compared, paralleled to the sort of discriminatory practices that are outlawed in the equality act, or hate crimes, for example.

In my case, I discriminate against blonde men. I also discriminate against blonde women, and actually all women, as I'm straight.

Interestingly, while sex is very important to me, and genitals (and I am a bit boggled at the claim that "You must have a really fucking two-dimensional view of sex if you think which particular genitals are involved is so key to the outcome or experience" because erm yes really they do), I am really not at all fussed about the gender of the person I have sex with.

There is a bit of a whiff of "women must have sex with who others say they have sex with, and if they don't want to then they are some kind of horrible bigot" about this, and I don't like it. Women have always struggled to be allowed the right to choose their own sexual partners, and something about this thread feels really off to me.

Oh my reasons are that I don't like that on blonde people's faces you can't really see eyebrows or eyelashes or anything very easily, sometimes not at all. I don't like the way the face is not framed properly, to my aesthetic. I prefer men with darker facial hair.

Do I need to "own" that prejudice? And if I go around saying "I am prejudiced against blondes" won't people think that means that I hate them, that I wish them harm, that I don't want them near me in any context?

And how will they mesh that with the fact that I am blonde myself?

I mean this whole thread, really aggressive people telling people that they are bigots for having sexual preferences, and they must either accept that they are bigots, as bad as any member of the National Front or a group in Russia who go out beating the shit out of gay people, in the thoughts that they have, or, well, if they just got over it and stopped being so prejudiced in who they would fuck well then they'd be OK human beings.

I really dislike the tone of this.

If you don't want to have sex with someone because you have a prejudice that being bisexual means xyz bad thing it is highly unlikely that that belief about bisexual people is entirely and exclusively only enacted in your sex life though. The whole thing is what pocket saviour said. Everyone has prejudices about people in relation to who they will and won't sleep with but it's important in keeping them in perspective to recognise they are prejudiced beliefs. You also forget that individual prejudice, when it is common hurts the lives of bisexual people far more than simply meaning they lose the opportunity of a relationship with one person they like. If no-one will consider a relationship with someone bisexual, including bisexual people, because there is some evidence of prejudice towards bisexual people from within their group who are they meant to form relationships with? It actually is entirely right to ask people to look at why they believe bisexual people are not people they would/should have relationships with even if it is entirely wrong to expect them to have relationships they don't want, especially when there is nothing objectively wrong with being bisexual in the first place.