what do narcissists feel?

[afink]

I had a relationship with a classic narcissist over 10 years ago. I'd always known he was abusive, but it was only after reading threads on here and then researching online that I realised that he was a narcissist and that our relationship followed the classic idealise-devalue-discard cycle.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone knew what narcissists actually feel at the beginning of the relationship when they are being so full on and perfect. Do they genuinely think they are in love? I can't imagine someone pretending to feel those things, although I can imagine someone conning themselves into thinking they're in love and therefore behaving in a way that they think a person who is in love behaves. Anyone?

The operation and c-sec comments are interesting for me.
My husband's mother shows all the signs of being a classic narcissist. My husband isn't narcissistic (although he has picked up some maladaptive behaviours).

After my c-sec, my previously caring, gentle husband was sulky, passive-aggressive and resentful, and got irritated about having to help me.

I have sometimes wondered whether he is a covert narcissist but I am more inclined to think he has narcissistic "fleas". He feels guilt, and i think one of his narc mother's defining characteristics is her lack of guilt about anything.

I have read that narcs have a deep sense of shame underpinning their facade of superiority. I can't really imagine it in MIL's case, but who knows?
Apparently their self-esteem is more fragile than it looks, and any disagreement reminds them of their deep sense of inferiority.

Name that's really shitty. I can't imagine what was going through his head - fear of his new responsibilities? Panic at being in a situation where he would have to cope and look after others? Utterly selfish, whatever the reason.

'I have read that narcs have a deep sense of shame underpinning their facade of superiority'

Definitely the case in my experience. My parents are absolutely obsessed with what other people think of them - appearance is absolutely everything. If all looks fine, then it is fine. There are some nasty secrets within the family and if any of them got out, and were common knowledge, I think the shame might actually kill one of them. I really mean that. I don't think they would even begin to cope. They are in an utterly miserable marriage but would never contemplate separating because what would people think?????

Yes, appearance is everything to mil. Social display is very important to her.
She is also obsessed with big fake "happy family" events.

Oh god yes, playing 'happy families', ideally in front of loads of people. I declined an invitation to a family wedding recently (first cousin was groom) because I just couldn't face it. I got serious guilt trips from my dad and one milder guilt-inducing comment from my aunt, about how sad it was that we couldn't 'all be there together'. None of these people actually know me or care about me as a person in my own right - its all about appearances and making them look good. My dad was clearly furious that I had disobeyed the three line whip and not presented myself as requested to take part in the whole charade. It's only been in the last 2 years or so that I've felt confident in my status as an independent adult, rather than a naughty child who much do as she is told, and its very liberating

Very very interesting thread. My dh's ex is a narc. The whole world revolves around her.
My dsd is nine. The ex and dsd live with the ex's parents and they do the vast majority of childcare (when we don't have dsd).
Dsd will maybe see her mother once a week, if there can be bothered the go home.
I want to ask a question. What can dh and I do to support dsd? She knows by now that her mother isn't bothered about her at all (the ex prefers spending time with her boyfriend or in the pub to being with her daughter), and on the surface she seems to cope well. But sometimes she 'cracks' and cries that she misses mummy. (Sadly she's got into a habit of doing this when she doesn't want to do something like homework or brushing her teeth too)
What can dh and I say? We try to phone the ex so dsd can talk but she won't answer her phone. Dh has tried to talk to her to ask her to spend time with dsd but it falls on deaf ears. There's always an excuse - usually a lie.
We worry that dsd is going to end up damaged. How can being rejected by your mother not end up badly?
The ex also seems to want dsd to be a 'bad' child. She'll phone up dh and complain about dsd's attitude or say she's got into trouble at school. Further investigation always shows that she's lying, or at least massively embellishing. Why dos she do this? Is she trying to justify abandoning dsd by saying that's she's a bad child & not worth worrying about? I don't understand at all.

Exaggerating her daughter's misbehaviours might be a histrionic trait (everything's a drama.) It also feeds nicely into "Look how hard I try!" when she can convince herself that she's not a can't-be-bothered mother, but a good woman at her wit's end. If she was her mother's scapegoat, it's probably the only way she knows how to relate to a child.

Nine is old enough to have observed her mother's behaviour for herself. She may very likely looking for permission to tell her own story. You can facilitate this for her by talking about how some people just are differently wired in the head, and can only see things from a selfish point of view. It's very sad & frustrating for the people around them because the relationship's all one way, which isn't a healthy relationship. Nine-year-olds understand 'not rational' and are capable of understanding 'narcissist'. Loads of Mumsnetters have successfully explained it all to children even younger than DSD - perhaps some will be along to share their experience :)

It's very important to teach her it's not her fault and she deserves better ... even though her mum's incapable of providing better!

Thank you Garlick. That's very helpful.
The 'my daughter is bad' thing is fairly recent (dh and her split 4 years ago, this has only been going on for a few months), before that she used to constantly decide dsd was ill and would be constantly at the GP surgery or visiting a&e. DH had to stop a doctor from doing pretty pointless lumbar puncture once because the ex had demanded it done (she didn't know what she was talking about, it didn't need doing)
The illness thing has stopped, and now it's the 'the child is bad' thing. It's upsetting. Dsd is a normal nine year old, sometimes a pain but generally very good, placid, not bothered by much.
The ex has a sister, who presumably had the same upbringing, she's fine though, a bit of a workaholic but otherwise pretty normal.
As far as I can tell, the ex's parents just completely indulge her, they bail her out financially very often (as did my dh, she used to run up CC bills then leave them on the table, he'd wordlessly take them and pay them). I know her parents 'moan' at her to spend more time with the child but she reacts to that 'attack' by spending even more time away to stay away from being moaned at!
It's just so frustrating.
I will talk to dh about what we should say to dsd. We won't sit her down & make a big deal of it but it's nice to know what to say next time it all kicks off. Because it will. It always does.

Hi Germgirl, I grew up with 2 narc parents. I think probably the worst aspect of the whole thing, the thing that had the most dreadful impact on me, was growing up thinking that this was normal. I had no-one to validate my feelings, to allow me to feel how I was feeling and to make space for me when I needed it. When I got older and made relationships of my own, it slowly dawned on me (through experience and through therapy) that this was not normal and had to accept the fact that my parents have never, and will never, see me for who I actually am. I'm just an extension of them as far as they are concerned.

So your plans to support your DSD through this are great. I would recommend allowing her to feel whatever comes up for her and to use words to validate her feelings - for example 'you're feeling sad because you miss mummy and that's ok. We all feel sad when we miss people'. Don't rush her into looking on the bright side or thinking of all the people she has who do love her - that's just minimising her pain and will make her feel like she's not being heard. She needs to be allowed to acknowledge that her mum is not around in the way that she needs her, and that it bloody hurts. She's lucky to have you but she will realise that in time, don't worry!

Wise words, Lotta. The worst thing is getting the message that your feelings are unimportant.

But no child wants to hear that their parents are crap. It makes the child feel crap as well.

A fine balance.

I think I'm possibly narcissistic. I'm terrified of screwing up my kids, I shouldn't have had any

What makes you think that? Have people told you?

I can't imagine the narcissist in my life saying he's 'terrified of screwing up his kids'.

He would say that other people are screwing up his kids.

Whenever I read descriptions / examples of narcs I see so much of myself in it; like 99%. It's taken 35 years to become self-aware of my behaviour. I hate the way I treat the people in my life, but I can't help it

So how do you treat people badly?

True narcissists (as opposed to selfish/thoughtless/abusive/arrogant twats - of which there are many) have a personality disorder.

It is not something within their control and it would be extremely rare than an individual with that disorder would ever consider it could apply to them.

Because it would be fundamentally inconsistent to the diagnosis where an individual cannot see how abnormal and destructive their behaviour is. Because it would be such a world - shattering and devastating thought to even consider.

That's why NPDs don't really present for treatment unless after a criminal conviction or a referral to drug/alcohol rehabilitation and they often only do so then because it will benefit them to go along with the diagnosis and not because they really believe it. They see it as another game to play and win.

If you are one of the very tiny NPDs that recognise it unprompted then I admire you hugely and if you tell us more we may be able to point you towards help.

But your own assessment of yourself suggests it's probably not NPD.

Posting to mark place. My mum is classic narc, goes months each year not talkkng to me or the kids. Dad i think is kn the spectrum but undiagnosed and it comes ac3oss as uncaring. I have to reason that one in my head as their behaviours are similar but i know my dad does mean well, i just have to be explicit that needs to do xyz..,

Right, Funkin, I've thread-stalked you and discovered you're pregnant, have hyperacusis, are stuck indoors due to photosensitivty, hate confrontation and are concerned about your neighbour's dog even though he's driving you crazy.

You have a few things going on there, but on evidence so far I wouldn't say it's narcissism!

Can you wear ear defenders? Or a white noise headset might help.

Ooh, future, tricky! I know what you mean about apparent similarities, too ...

Really liked your post at 6.42 on the 29th, Garlick, I think it's very true, we all carry these characteristics and are comprised of any number of them at any time.

I don't find it at all helpful or useful to hear or read that 'my mum's a narc' because I fundamentally agree with you that we all are; maybe it's our own 'narc' (I loathe that term) behaviour that makes us need to identify what we perceive as negative behaviour in others. Sometimes, errors of judgement, selfishness and lack of awareness in an event is just that... not necessarily a full-fledged yet undiagnosed 'narc'.

Haven't name changed so don't want to go into detail so I'll bullet point.
Demand constant attention and I sulk if I don't get it.
Gaslight.
Stonewall.
Jekyll and Hyde personality.
Emotionally manipulative.
Expect high standards from everyone around me, except myself.
Extremely critical.
Have tantrums.
Grandiose.
Selfish and self involved/important.

I try to improve myself by listening to people and not pushing my opinion on others, but I normally realise after I've done it that I was unreasonable, so obviously it's too late and I'm the same old selfish bitch, just with a little bit more self-awareness.

I behave this way, then a few days later I'll reflect on it and feel bad.

I've had therapy for other issues, which I don't feel helped. Experienced abuse as a child and have been on anti-depressants for some time.
Said more than I wanted to!

Funking a true narcissist would not make those reflections on themselves in that way, I would say. They would blame others.

However, if you recognise that things are not right it might be helpful to talk to someone about it.

thank you Lotta. We seem to be doing the right things I think. We do acknowledge it when dsd says she misses her mum, we say it's ok to miss people & like I said we try to contact the ex but she often doesn't answer.
We never bad mouth the ex, not to dsd anyway! I'm afraid in private we're not so nice. It's very hard for dh to see his daughter being upset by her mother. I get angry that he won't confront the ex but I know deep down that there's no point. Her parents have tried telling her to spend time with her child (seriously, what mother should have to be told to do that?!), but her reaction is just to stay away even more to avoid what she perceives as unfair 'moaning'
The only thing I worry about is dsd becoming like her mother. I don't know the ex very well but obviously dh does, they were together for 20 years.
He says he can see traits in dsd that are just like her mother. She is very selfish, and has no empathy for others. I don't know how much of that is being 9 and how much is her mothers genes showing through.
Dsd is genuinely perplexed if we ask her to think about how her behaviour affects someone else, for example being mean to people at school. But she's very very quick to complain if she feels someone is being unfair to her. She cries at perceived injustices all the time. Dh says this is just like the ex, who uses tears and histrionics as a way to avoid being 'told off'
But like I say, how much of that is just being nine and how much is genetics and seeing how her mother gets away with things by crying? Only time will tell I suppose.

Don't worry about letting off steam in private - you have to look after yourself too and expressing feelings is an important part of that. Very good idea to keep gently challenging DSD re encouraging her to see things from others point of view and reflect on how her behaviour affects others

As a society, we tend to see mothers as loving, nurturing, selfless types. The truth is that some people are just not capable of those things and cannot put another person's needs first, even their own child. Some people would genuinely do anything for their children, some just do not give a fig about them. That's not an excuse - DSD deserves much better and her mother is letting her down very badly - but it may help you to think of her mother in this way?

In my experience, both personal and professional, environment is way more important than genes when it comes to determining how a child will turn out so keep at it. Don't feel its in any way inevitable that she will turn out like her mother

Funking - Might you have 'fleas'?