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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

what do narcissists feel?

158 replies

afink · 28/07/2015 07:25

I had a relationship with a classic narcissist over 10 years ago. I'd always known he was abusive, but it was only after reading threads on here and then researching online that I realised that he was a narcissist and that our relationship followed the classic idealise-devalue-discard cycle.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone knew what narcissists actually feel at the beginning of the relationship when they are being so full on and perfect. Do they genuinely think they are in love? I can't imagine someone pretending to feel those things, although I can imagine someone conning themselves into thinking they're in love and therefore behaving in a way that they think a person who is in love behaves. Anyone?

OP posts:
afink · 28/07/2015 21:27

While mine fits the pattern and personality traits of a classic narcissist as described in relationships, he does not actually fit the diagnostic criteria for narcissistic personality disorder. Instead, I am pretty sure (and was also sure when I was with him) that he has borderline personality disorder.

OP posts:
FolkGirl · 28/07/2015 21:47

Yes, afink.

If you look at the diagnostic criteria, then it's quite scary! I would imagine relatively few people meet the criteria for it.

It certainly requires more than being a selfish lover or a shit parent!

brokenhearted55a · 28/07/2015 21:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

brokenhearted55a · 28/07/2015 21:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Aussiebean · 29/07/2015 05:35

Kraken.

A lot of what you describe appears to be more someone who has grown up without any example of how to have healthy emotions. I imagine when ever you tried to show affection, it was rebuffed or not good enough. You were also not shown any. You didn't experience it, so struggle with it now.

The examples you were given as a child is what you know, and while you see fault with it, you probably don't have the knowledge or comfort to change it.

Name changer.

You asked about things you should watch for. The big thing is when your daughters start expressing their own opinions. Especially if they are different to their fathers. This will be met with by anger and possible bullying and name calling. They will be taught not to have an opinion that differes from his.

They will then move on to have trouble articulating their feelings and emotions because they haven't been told what those feelings and emotions should be by their dad.

This is something I have only just begun to realise about myself.

Aussiebean · 29/07/2015 05:41

Oh and kraken.

The reason you possibly react badly to critisim is that growing up, everything about you was critised. So you are sticking up for yourself.

We (brothers and me) found that we were constantly defending ourselves against critisim from partners. Which was hard for them because they actually weren't critising us. My sil worked it out the fest time she met our mothers. She said 'no wonder you think everything is a critisim, because growing up, everything was'

Garlick · 29/07/2015 06:42

There's a really strong tendency to agonise over "why?" and "how could they do that?" I find it helps to remember that in the olden days, such people were simply called mad Grin

I'm olden enough to remember when people talked about someone having a god complex, being an egomaniac or megalomaniac. In some ways we were a bit smarter before we had all these fine-tuned diagnoses to toss around! If someone was known to have a 'god complex', nobody bothered trying to change them or to make them see. You just pandered to them as necessary and made sure you didn't give anything away.

I also find it helpful to remember the definition of a personality disorder is an extremely rigid personality. We are all narcissists, psychopaths, histrionics and the rest: the difference is that it's fluid for us. We segue between states, recognise that other people do the same, and can change mode as needed. People with PDs are stuck forever in one or two of these states.

Think about some beautiful narcissistic moments of your own. I go back to my teens, when I'd spend five hours getting ready for a night out. After staring at my reflection like it was a canvas, airbrushing my face and hair to near-perfection, I'd go out and expect people to look at me. Seeing admiration on their faces, receiving and exchanging compliments, feeling like I was in my personal spotlight and stage-ready: it was the main point of the night out. All of us were polished-up egos on lanky legs, shining those lights on ourselves and each other. Saturday nights, we were glamorous & sophisticated, beautiful & accomplished, witty & adorable. Being ignored, criticised or found uninteresting would have been awful. We made the effort and ego strokes were our reward.

Perhaps you weren't the vain, nightclubbing type of teenager but you will have had your moments; perhaps on your wedding day or the graduation ball. Massive effort & painstaking care, rewarded by some hours basking in the flattering glow of reflected admiration.

For a narcissist, all of life is like that. It is their only mode.

If you can only exist as a reflection in the eyes of others - you cannot bear to find a charmless reflection or, worse, no reflection - then the airbrushing is a matter of survival. You must perfect your image so that, when people reflect you, it will be satisfactory and you'll be reassured for a moment that you exist and you're okay. You can't have them reflecting a useless husband or a selfish mother: airbrush that out!

And, of course, you never see the people behind the eyes you look in: you only see your own reflection.

I do feel compassion for such people, though it's taken a long time. I'm also very discombobulated at the moment as my mother's spent the week airbrushing out all the hard work I did to reach an understanding with her about my childhood. One effect is that it's knocked my own narcissism off what I consider a healthy level; it's going to be a bit of a struggle to put it back. Hence this possibly weird post, sorry. It's helping me get things back into perspective.

Garlick · 29/07/2015 06:43

For what it's worth, Kraken, I thought you sounded more traumatised than rigidly disordered. I'm pleased to see others have said the same. Get thee to a therapist :)

TwistedReality · 29/07/2015 12:56

Reading this thread has been like personal therapy for me. I was going to post my own thread yesterday as I was feeling so wretched, when I stumbled across this one.

I have a narc in my life (or maybe no longer after the latest drama) and have been battling my emotions since it kicked off several days ago.
I realised she was a narc/has most of the narc tendencies a couple of years ago and thought I was doing so well not given in to the attention seeking and pulling back. But she upped the ante, this week especially trying every which way to reel me back in and totally floored me. This has put me right back and i'm questioning everything all over again.
She has got me so I don't know which way is up anymore. I know from experience that it does not matter what I do/say nothing will change and I know you cant argue with a narcissist but still doesn't make it any easier to deal with.

I realise that i am putting a label on her and of course she hasn't and is unlikely to be diagnosed but if it helps me try to understand and enable myself to move on from the damage she has caused then i am willing to go with it for now.

Everything I read so far about Narcissism totally fits. The mimicking of others thoughts, ideas and actions. The grandiose statements, the lack of empathy, the attention seeking, lies, jealousy, entitlement to time money,objects and emotions, gaslighting, flying monkeys, rewriting history, the fantasies and ideals..... everything.

This latest drama consisted of 3 lies in the space of 30 seconds, with the last being a situation that I thought I'd found myself in but turned out not to be (sorry to be cryptic) I'd just finished telling her and had only just drawn breath when she then took what i'd just told her, substituted me for herself and told the story straight back to me but with her outcome different to try and gain my sympathy/attention.

I feel like she ripped out my insides chewed them up and spat them out.

I don't know what will happen from now on as I haven't spoken to her since and wont be contacting her anytime soon. But it will kind of make it difficult within the family if I go NC permanently......so one day at a time for now.

Aussiebean · 29/07/2015 13:03

Twisted. Try going very low contact.

Don't answer the phone as much and never ever give her personal information. Keep all conversation about her and on the weather.

Go have a look at the stately homes thread as that will help you and counselling is very helpful.

Then you can decide what it best for you.

Lottapianos · 29/07/2015 13:09

Great advice from Aussiebean. I can't handle the thought of NC either but am very low contact with my parents - see them about once a year, no phonecalls, text about once a month. Share nothing of any importance with them. Detach emotionally - a very long and very painful process but I definitely do now have periods where I really don't care what they think of me. I see a psychotherapist and I cannot recommend it enough.

Laladeepsouth · 29/07/2015 13:13

afink, I think your euphoria theory due to the narcissist having a full, fresh tank of narcissistic supply is brilliant and makes logical sense of an aspect of narcissism I've never really understood (your original question re what the narcissist feels as "love"). And imagine the disappointment, disgust, and rage the narcissist must feel as the euphoria begins to dissipate and suddenly vanishes! How he must despise the unworthy recipient of his former delusions!

Garlick, great (not weird at all) post! Your descriptions of the young girl getting ready and her personal spotlight as having been EARNED and deserved! is such an insightful and vivid image! I've understood the performance aspect on a very superficial level prior to your description but you've managed to make the narcissist's view of the world something I can actually see, feel, and understand. That image really helped explain it as a permanent "other" or alternative state of being one that's not completely foreign to the rest of us a place where concepts like compassion, fairness, empathy don't really exist or even apply or have any meaning because it's not about that. Wow!

Everybody really! Thanks for sharing your personal thoughts and histories -- this has helped me and I'm sure many others to understand this subject so much better.

ElkeDagMeisje · 29/07/2015 13:36

FolkGirl I don't look like her. Objectively, I know I'm not ugly, but I believe I am. She was beautiful, attractive, very pretty (according to her)

That sounds familiar. My mother was probably a narcissist. She wasn't all bad (she loved crisis and would be totally loyal in backing you up in one and had a sense of humour at least) but I remember a childhood where I was constantly made to feel I would never compare to the great beauty that was supposed to be my mother. A few other people bought into this as well, especially my father (whom she bored off and discarded).

I lost count of times I would either be regaled by her about how beautiful she was when she was young, how she still was and how no other woman could hold a candle to her, her amazing bone structure, and so on. Even when I was modelling (local work, nothing special), I was still made to feel plain. It was always a great surprise to me if anyone mentioned I was attractive at all (and still is).

And yet looking at photographs of her, I see a perfectly ordinary looking woman, with short rather dull hair (even when she was young). I remember walking along a beach with her when I was 19, (setting up such a meeting with her was difficult because she was so popular, had so many other fun things to do and was very flaky and prone to cancelling), and she went on and on about how all the men were looking at her and then how she got tired and wanted to sit down and basically she had a tantrum. She had a tantrum too, the one time she came to visit me at uni, because she got too cold outside when she was supposed to be watching me play in a hockey match. She was wearing ridiculous light clothes for winter, and she wanted me to abandon halfway through the match to take her home, started screaming and yelling in front of all my friends. I was so embarrassed.

Then there was all the casual jobs. I lost count of the jobs in shops, etc she would take, only to stop turning up after 2 or 3 days because of some minor difficulty. All the cancellation of weekends and Christmasses I'd been looking forward to being slotted into her buy schedule, and being made to feel stupid for thinking I could spend time with my mother.

Of course, when she was older and has lost all her friends, she wanted me to be there constantly. But by that time I was low contact. The rest of her family see me as a monster. I can't win, so have no contact with any of them. They're all a bit prone to nastiness. What can you do? She wasn't all bad, but I got used to low contact as it was initiated by her.

Lottapianos · 29/07/2015 13:46

'I can't win, so have no contact with any of them'

That's the thing. It's not a game that you are ever going to win. The only answer is to refuse to play any longer. It's terribly sad and hurtful but it comes down to learning to put yourself first and fighting for your own survival.

spanky2 · 29/07/2015 14:33

My maternal grandma was abused as a child and became a narcissist. Her daughter(my mum,) was abused by her mother and became a narcissist. I was raised by my narcissist mother and psychopath father and I'm not a narcissist. I have had lots of therapy and antidepressants. What was the difference in me that stopped the pattern of narcissist mothers?
I think narcissism is a result of abuse, but what was the difference with me? Do narcissists have different neurological connections to my brain that makes them more susceptible to developing a full blown personality disorder?

BertieBotts · 29/07/2015 15:16

Hi, I want to post - have skim read - but don't have time at the moment. Will be back later possibly in a few days. :)

TwistedReality · 29/07/2015 15:19

Twisted. Try going very low contact.

Don't answer the phone as much and never ever give her personal information. Keep all conversation about her and on the weather

That's the thing for the last 18 months or so I have gone very low contact. I no longer call her as I cant deal with 3 hours solid of me, me, me! If she calls I keep the conversation short and to the point.

Visits are sporadic, (I no longer visit her) and I thought I was doing so well as when she starts with the attention seeking and the dramas I don't respond In the way she expects me to. I just smile and nod and move the conversation on.
I think where I went wrong this time was that she dropped in unannounced and I totally let my guard down. I am usually so careful about what personal information I share with her so told her what was going on with me without thinking. I am more upset at myself for not being on the ball and leaving myself open for her to try and get back in as the wall has been up for a long time.

I also think that she realised how much I have pulled back so that's what this weeks drama was about.

I do feel better about it today though and I don't think i'm at the counselling stage yet. It has helped massively just to write on here even though I haven't gone into much detail. I know I can build that wall back up to where it was. I just keep telling myself she cannot take what I'm not willing to give.

ABTwife · 29/07/2015 18:02

For genuine narcissists I think every day for them is like they're a victim of gaslighting.

They are so sure of their version of reality that they're genuinely bewildered by your version and they can only conclude you're lying/exaggerating/over - reacting or just plain wrong. Because they can't be wrong or behaving badly so it must be you.

It's a pretty shit life to be honest. Having fleeting feelings of success, happiness or love and then being disappointed once again. Like they always will be. Because everyone else causes them problems all of the time. It's never their fault.

Garlick · 29/07/2015 18:14

Lala, thank you so much for your feedback (from my neglected ego Wink) It's fantastic to know you 'got it'. Mum's been here for a few hours, and it went okay - I even batted off the opener for a childhood makeover without compromising myself. Go me!!

This thread came at just the right time. You are all amazing. Thank you.

DeckSwabber · 30/07/2015 08:11

ABT I agree that its a miserable life. They behave horribly, then are puzzled why people don't like them any more and don't do what they want.

When you are a toddler you can have a tantrum and mummy and daddy will still love you when its over, but as a an adult that kind of behaviour means people move away, or live in fear of you. Narcissists will discard the memory of the 'tantrum' (or whatever behaviour is manifested) because it didn't get THEM anywhere. It simply didn't happen in their own minds.

The person in my life has often asked me why I don't love him as he loves me - this after he destroyed nearly all my family relationships.

Namechanger2015 · 30/07/2015 09:33

My H had a wonderful life, (which I now miss terribly), but he still could not be happy. It wasn't enough, and no matter what we as a family gave him, it would never be enough.

He had 3 beautiful DDs - he pined for a son

I worked full time and did all of the childcare and all of the cooking and laundry - he said I was always tired and didn't spend enough time with him

My job is flexible and so I would pick up kids from school, do dinner etc and then work evenings whilst he watched tv in bed - he said he was bored and all I do is work

We went on lots of holidays, each of which I booked and paid for out of the allowance he gave me from my salary Hmm, and each of which he found fault with.

His only pleasure came from our lovely house, and from his sports car. So cliched. But it was/is all about image.

Even now, when I saw him last, he was cold, dismissive and lazy in the house, but as soon as we were going to see his sisters family, he was begging me to play happy families.

He tells everyone I won't let him see the children, and how much he misses them. But in reality I ask if he wants to see them and he says no.

In private he can be as selfish as he pleases, but in public he has to keep looking good to everyone else, and life is all about image.

I still pine for him and want him to be better so I can go back to being a family again, but it won't happen. He can't see past himself, and he cannot change his ways.

Namechanger2015 · 30/07/2015 09:34

Because they can't be wrong or behaving badly so it must be you.

Is there not an element of this in everyone? The ability to see things from our own point of view and not consider/think about others?

DeckSwabber · 30/07/2015 12:27

Namechanger yes I think that is true, and a bit of narcissism is healthy.

Children are narcissistic, but over time they come to learn about other people having needs as well, and how to form healthy, respectful relationships. I think narcissistic people get stuck because they think relationships are about winning and about being in control.

Pinkballoon · 30/07/2015 14:16

Afink and Name changer. Another operation one here! Refused to help after Caesarian, and I was taken back into hospital after collapsing. Still refused to help. Spat 'ridiculous' at me when I asked him for help getting up (week before I gave birth.)

Namechanger2015 · 30/07/2015 15:16

Spat 'ridiculous' at me when I asked him for help getting up (week before I gave birth.

wtf is wrong with him, that he lacks such basic compassion?

My H left me alone all weekend the week after my c-section. Didn't tell me he was going away, until he had already packed his bags and was driving off. Left me home for the weekend with a 5 day old baby post-c-section, without warning. Didn't check I had enough food to last the weekend, didn't offer to get anything I needed before he left, etc. Just went.

Children are narcissistic, but over time they come to learn about other people having needs as well, and how to form healthy, respectful relationships.

I think this is very true. I'm struggling with my (young) children loving their dad even though they saw him assault me. But they are children, of course they don't yet understand.

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