Totally excluded from group of friends and no idea why

[nuttynittynora]

When DD started school 4 years ago I became friendly with 3 other mums; I'll call them Lucy, Jayne and Anna for this thread.

For 3 years we all got on well and had lots of meet ups with the kids, lots of nights out, barbecues at each others' houses and I thought we were all good friends. I was closest to Lucy out of them all as we live in the same road and so saw more of each other. We even went on holiday as a family with Lucy and her DH and children.

About a year ago I noticed that all 3 of them were, seemingly overnight, being quite offhand with me. It was nothing that I could specifically put my finger on, but I just felt less welcome in a group with them all and like they didn't want to talk to me. They would all claim to be busy whenever I suggested doing anything together. I gave them the benefit of the doubt as had no reason to think that they weren't busy.

Then one night a few weeks after this started I noticed that Lucy had put some pictures on Facebook titled 'A great night out with great friends', and it turned out that all 3 of them had been out to the cinema then for a meal and I hadn't been invited. I was upset but didn't want to appear needy and so I didn't say anything to them all. I decided to pretend that it doesn't bother me but it really does.

I have carried on being polite and friendly to them all when I see them but none of them invite me out anymore, and I feel with them all that they seem to think they need to avoid me at all costs. If I see any of them individually and speak to them they act all wide eyed and desperate to get away and keep looking around them. All of their husbands have de-friended me on Facebook.

They are all having regular nights out and often invite other school mums along, but never me. Even my next door neighbour gets invited!

I truly cannot think of anything that I could have done to cause such offence seemingly overnight to all 3 of them! I was a good friend to them all for 3 years and I'm really not the type of person to be gobby and outspoken and cause offence by being myself.

I know I should be getting over it by now but I noticed last night on FB they were all sharing poems on each others' walls about good friendships and valuing each other and I just felt sorry for myself.

Tootles ... thank you for your honesty. Of coarse it doesnt look good written down, but I get where you are coming from, she sounds like a queenbee wannabe ... getting her own way and crying if not. If someone is making you unhappy then yes you need distance, maybe tell, maybe not, why should you suffer someone whos not easy to get on with. But you can do it and remain pleasant.

Cliques, apparently have a life span of about three and a half years. I know this because my therapist and I discussed it at length, when this happened to me. The playground, remains the playground, however old it's inhabitants.

I never found out what I did "wrong", but I am aware that the same women are still doing the same kind of thing, they just shift and change in their membership, a tiny bit at a time.

The underlying stuff is about their neediness, their jealousy, their insecurity.

Facebook is just a kind of speeded up version of real life. Remove these people, and move on.

Doesn't stop it hurting, but the sooner you move on, the quicker it becomes a weird thing that happened once.

I think that one of the DHs fancies you. Hence the blanket ban.

This is a classic lock down situation and as someone said up thread, it's you that is branded the scarlet woman.

So, go out with your DH and some other friends, plan some nice holidays, enjoy your own family. Live well, and remember it is their problem, not yours. Block them in FB and if anything you will one day feel sorry for them as they are obviously so threatened by you that they have taken such drastic steps.

Delete and move on up!

I think it would be interesting to do a thread where people explain the reasons they have backed away from a friend in the past. I don't mean it would be interesting specifically to the OP, just maybe interesting generally.

I know when I was new to a town once I made friends with a girl and on the surface we got on but I was reining in a mischievous / irreverent part of my personality when I was with her. If it ever leaked I know she was a bit shocked, or she didn't get my 'joke'. Gradually I made other friends I felt I could be more myself around. But she doesn't understand that I didn't feel I could be 100% myself around her. So I guess she'd be a bit that I faded away out of her life.

ps, she did nothing wrong though.

To be clear, I think 'phasing out' is ridiculous and childish and I would take no part in it.

As far as I know, my friend still sees the others in our group.

I have found out stuff that upsets me. So, I haven't organised to see her or accepted any invitations.

I could get into a Mean Girls spat of 'she said then she said' but I'm a bit too long in the tooth for that. So, I've backed off.

When I see her I'll be pleasant. But the fact is, she's not who I thought she was and I need to decide whether I want a relationship with who I know her to be now.

I wouldn't ever drag other people into it though.

Group dynamics are always hard, and whenever a bunch of women is involved, it always descends into two, three or more talking behind somebody's back. Nobody is immune and they all do it. It seems that a lot of the bonding is based more than anything else in finding a common point to bitch about in someone else.

Add the children's behaviors into the mix, and multiply trouble by two, three or the amount of children and mums involved. Far too stressful!

Ultimately, the key issue is where the real loyalties lie, which is usually with the strong personality, or the one who's got something that is more desired, e.g. status, money, power etc.

I've seen and heard women criticise a friend badly, telling me what a pita they are and then I've seen photos of them together on FB with the caption "Best Friends Forever". Cannot get any more playground than this. They were not going to stop being friends as one was paying for the other's holidays abroad.

With now FB and social media, the whole thing just becomes a script from the Mean Girls movie.

And we're talking about women who are in their thirties or forties!! I've learned a lot about mums' cliques so far, and I'm not interested in becoming a part of one at all. For all the facade of camaraderie and sisterhood on the outside, there are a lot of screwed up dynamics on the inside.

I prefer relating to people on a one to one basis, and avoid even getting those together. Since you might turn around, and they might start bitching about you behind your back.

OP - those FB messages are really hurtful and childish. Difficult to know what has happened, but I think in your situation I'd have to ask (maybe one of the husbands would be best). It really could be a massive misunderstanding (although obviously things could never be the same again).

As part of the general discussion, I've been on the group side of this kind of thing too like Tootles where one person was phased out of a group. I also don't like the way that everyone on MN seems to assume that it is the rest of the group that are a bunch of bitches. (P.S. I am not saying that is the case for you at all OP)

In my situation, I was already friends with A + B. We met C + D (who knew each other already) at a toddler group and we all met up regularly during mat leave - toddler group, coffee with the kids at each others houses every couple of weeks, occasional nights out for drinks & dinner every few months. After a while, most of us went back to work and didn't meet up quite as much as before.

Then we all went away for a weekend together without kids where D behaved atrociously. We were staying in A's family apartment in Spain (for free) and D did not help once with anything. Not with organising, driving, navigating, tidying, cleaning, cooking, shopping. Nothing. No one else had to be asked - everyone just naturally did their bit. D also regularly belittled A and did a number of other little things that showed her lack of social awareness and her inflated sense of self importance.

The icing on the cake was when she was specifically asked to help clean when we were leaving she replied "I don't clean my own house as I have a cleaner, so I'm not cleaning this one!". We were all gobsmacked. We actually cleaned & hoovered around her as she sat drying and straightening her hair. It was difficult to really have it out with her though as we still had the trip home to do!

I guess it had been obvious from the start of the acquaintance that D was a bit of a princess and could be loud, patronising & overbearing, but she could also be funny, generous & down to earth so any issues that cropped up before had just been smoothed over and forgotten. We had never discussed her behind her back before this holiday, but we certainly did afterwards!

I have seen D a couple of times since & C still sees D very occasionally, but she has never been invited out as part of the group again. She has never asked why.

A, B, C & I still meet up a lot regularly and are firm friends. We've been back to Spain twice without her. We never put anything on FB though...especially not bloody friendship poems!

For Pete's sake just ask, then you'll know!

That is making the assumption that the OP will get a full and frank answer, which I very much doubt.

I don't know why it would be inferred that phasing somebody out involves mutual acquaintances too.

Ninety nine times out of a hundred it's perfectly possible to relegate a friendship (not the person) because they pick up on your cues, you were picking up on theirs... you realise the circumstances of your lives that made you friends in the first place have changed.

I don't fall out with people and I can be friends with two people who don't have time for each other. It's all possible.

Toodleoo - fair enough, it sounds like you did actually try, if you explained to the others how she felt and e-mailed her about the way she let her children treat yours. I guess some people are very insecure about their friendships and their lack of trust in the sincerity of others can in the end force the situation they most fear. It doesn't sound as though that was the case here, though, if the OP identified a sudden change of attitude, but received no clues as to the reasons why.

I have several friends who don't have time for each other - normally they were formerly friends who fell out for one reason or another. None of them have ever put pressure on me to choose between them: I guess they remember the reasons they used to be friends, even if they can no longer bear to be in each others' company. I would be very annoyed if I were automatically expected to take sides to prove my friendship, because friendship breakdown is, in my experience, seldom a result of just one person's obvious failings. Sometimes, perfectly nice people can upset each other and do or say things they shouldn't have done, then find themselves backed into a corner that pride will not let them out of. A couple of friends took twelve years before they eventually made up...

I guess that's why a whole gang of people all suddenly being unfriendly together riles me on behalf of the OP.

I had to double check we weren't talking about a group of 12 year olds here. Boasting on Facebook about activities, ganging up to exclude you and then most probably giggling and revelling in it.... How pathetic.

You can speculate all you like about the reasons why, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask, it will be denied or you'll be told you're imaging their behaviour. They will enjoy the fact you've asked them. Bullies do.

De friend on Facebook, a brief hello when you see them and a quick walk away.
It's tough, but they will soon find someone else to pick on or exclude.
There are nicer, more grown up people out there, you deserve these sort of people as you sound decent yourself.

Friends walk away from each other all the time both as groups or individually.

The main thing is how you do it. Do you spread rumours, premeditate actions, influence others to behave in certain ways to hurt, and cause psychological pain?

It's not so clear cut as: "The gang is always wrong, the individual is right", or the other way round.

The problem with this particular clique and other threads in MN is that the gang is behaving maliciously towards the OP, that that's why she's hurt, and that's why she posts here.

I wouldn't say individuals don't behave badly towards a group, by the psychological damage done to an individual by a group is far greater. If the individual behaves badly and is ostracized because of that, the gang is not there dwelling on it for ages. It's a lot easier to move on as a group. Groups are always stronger.

It's a survival thing. We all need to feel we belong to a bigger group to survive, and in the times of the caveman, those who belonged to a bigger group always had more chances of survival than the ones who went alone.

Sorry to rant on an on on in here. I just find the dynamics of human relations very interesting.

Hugs to you OP, it's never easy, but it happens to a lot of us. It helps me to look at the relationship as a whole and perhaps accept its limitations as well as its positives. It may just be time to let go and walk away. Easier said than done though, I know.

Exactly autumn. Exclusion from a group cuts very deep - as you say we are programmed to fit in with our peers ancient survival instinct perhaps. Whole premise of Big Brother!

Agree the issue isn't friendships ending and drifting. Its the explicit group exclusion that hurts. I think anyone would be upset.

I think this group of women have behaved in an immature and cowardly way. I speak as someone who has excluded friends from my life for various reasons and in my turn been dropped by friends without explanation.

I have only one example of where I was in a group friendship and we as a group dropped a group member. This was because a couple who were both part of the group split up and were no longer able to be in the same room together, as a group we took the side of the ex boyfriend not because of what had happened in the relationship (who can know all the details?) but because we were closer to him in the first place. Some of the group members including myself stayed in touch with the ex girlfriend on a 1:1 or small group basis.

It appears your friends have made no effort to try and address this situation or raise it with you and there appears no logical reason for their behaviour. For this reason I would lose respect for them and probably be unlikely to try and challenge your ex friends if I were in your situation. As others have said, you will probably receive some bullshit explanation while making yourself vulnerable to them by showing them you care about their actions, so I think you are wise to say nothing, lick your wounds and move on.

Slightly different, but my best friend, or the person I thought was my best friend, cut all ties with me. We'd been friendly since we were 11.

I think it has turned out that I am not compatible with his wife's friends and family. They don't like me, so there is no longer a place for me in their life.

I was upset at the time, but you know what? Fuck him. The friendship wasn't what I thought it was.

Also, I'm sure it's been said, but people don't share their real lives on Facebook.

Hi - I'm in the process of 'excluding' a friend and I feel pretty terrible. I feel dominated by her (she wants me to look after her daughter/be the driver on our days out/join us when we go on holiday) and I don't agree with some of her views on race. I felt uncomfortable recently when she turned up at my house without warning (with medicine for my son - she thought he needed vitamins). Am I being unreasonable and unkind? I'm currently ignoring her texts and phone calls. She has been really lovely to me, but I don't feel that we are compatible. Do I need to tell her why? Do I have a right to choose my friendships?

Seven, might it be that your former friend is a man? Different dynamics in male/female friendships, eg when partners enter the equation. Doesn't make what he did right of course!

I have deliberately reduced contact with a couple of formerly close individual friends since having DC because over time I realised I didn't enjoy their company much anymore for different reasons. we lived faraway from each other so meeting up involved a lot of time, expense and travel all of which I had less opportunity for post-DC!

I avoid groups, am on the outskirts of one because of a friendship with a member of the group and happy to stay there! Have observed bitchiness about others and each other.

Wortle, if she's racist no need to feel guilty about phasing her out!

The other things could, if you otherwise like her or want to give her another chance, be dealt with through assertiveness, eg refusing unreasonable requests or ones that don't suit you. If she's persistent or grumpy about it she's the unreasonable one!

wortleberry - if at some point she asks you what the problem is, what are you planning to do? Or are you hoping that by ignoring her texts and phone calls, you won't know she's asking you and then she'll just disappear?

wortleberry: it's so hard to tell someone the plain truth without causing a lot of offence to her and a lot of stress to both of you.

If you feel her presence and attitudes overwhelming, try to distance yourself gradually, maybe she will get the hint.

Maybe give her one more chance, but be assertive and don't let her run the show.

One of the mums from school got very grumpy with me the other day on a day out. I honestly don't need people like that in my life, but I wouldn't want to cut ties completely because we will have to see each other over and over and I don't like creating a awkward situation.

I suggested meeting again, to be able to patch things up. If she doesn't come back, then it's her decision. If she agrees, at least, I've given her a chance. I did apologise for being grumpy, though, which is a good sign.