Totally excluded from group of friends and no idea why

[nuttynittynora]

When DD started school 4 years ago I became friendly with 3 other mums; I'll call them Lucy, Jayne and Anna for this thread.

For 3 years we all got on well and had lots of meet ups with the kids, lots of nights out, barbecues at each others' houses and I thought we were all good friends. I was closest to Lucy out of them all as we live in the same road and so saw more of each other. We even went on holiday as a family with Lucy and her DH and children.

About a year ago I noticed that all 3 of them were, seemingly overnight, being quite offhand with me. It was nothing that I could specifically put my finger on, but I just felt less welcome in a group with them all and like they didn't want to talk to me. They would all claim to be busy whenever I suggested doing anything together. I gave them the benefit of the doubt as had no reason to think that they weren't busy.

Then one night a few weeks after this started I noticed that Lucy had put some pictures on Facebook titled 'A great night out with great friends', and it turned out that all 3 of them had been out to the cinema then for a meal and I hadn't been invited. I was upset but didn't want to appear needy and so I didn't say anything to them all. I decided to pretend that it doesn't bother me but it really does.

I have carried on being polite and friendly to them all when I see them but none of them invite me out anymore, and I feel with them all that they seem to think they need to avoid me at all costs. If I see any of them individually and speak to them they act all wide eyed and desperate to get away and keep looking around them. All of their husbands have de-friended me on Facebook.

They are all having regular nights out and often invite other school mums along, but never me. Even my next door neighbour gets invited!

I truly cannot think of anything that I could have done to cause such offence seemingly overnight to all 3 of them! I was a good friend to them all for 3 years and I'm really not the type of person to be gobby and outspoken and cause offence by being myself.

I know I should be getting over it by now but I noticed last night on FB they were all sharing poems on each others' walls about good friendships and valuing each other and I just felt sorry for myself.

I have probably been the Lucy in this situation in a group of four. I think often the answer is often more subtle than a lot of the suggestions people are making (bitching behind backs, false rumours, husband fancying - it all sounds a bit teenage).

The person who got 'frozen out' of our group had always been a bit precious, but she was fun and ultimately nice. She became extremely hard work after a few years though - very jealous for no reason if two people happened to do something together that didn't involve her (like two of the group going for coffee, or popping round to someone's house for an impromptu playdate - we're not talking nights out) and spent a lot of time complaining to me about the others doing things together, and trying to get me to join in. The last straw was the fact she allowed her child to hit and otherwise behave roughly with our kids - same age and younger - and didn't address it at all. It just became unbearable to spend time with her.

Ultimately there was something she wasn't invited to as we couldn't cope with it, and she blew her top about what total bitches we were on social media. Which kinda put the tin hat on it.

Not great, I know and I felt horrible about it for ages. However, if she'd asked and we'd explained 'you make it such hard work to be with you. Your child's behaviour is dreadful and you just stand by letting our kids suffer' I think it would have ended just the same.

Sorry toodle but I think it was really unkind of you to get the others to exclude this woman too. Fair enough if you didn't like her but it sounds as though you set out to isolate her from the others too, which isn't nice.

horrendous for you. i would not ask but chalk it down to experience. i also wouldn't block them on fb, but i certainly would hide their posts.

I think either you have been perceived to have done something, or you have out grown this group. Move on, happiness is the best revenge.

God how awful. This is why I keep my distance at school. I have been through a similar incident many years ago when my now teen was in primary school. Nowadays, with my other children, I have a nice, warm chat with mums, enjoy their company at the school gate and that.is.it! I don't do coffees, hardly help out at the school, just keep a cool step back because too many mums on a playground gets kinda weird.

Just wondering: Have you had a baby or are you pregnant?
Also, could the DH of Lucy gotten it into his head on your joint holiday that you fancy him? Could he fancy you and Lucy maybe cottoned onto this? You'd be amazed, even if you've done nothing and a school dad likes you, the woman is always the one that gets treated like some scarlet tart. There is no sisterhood. School gates have taught me that. Mothers at the school gate can turn on you for reasons unknown to us. And it drives the point home that women in a group can get nasty.

I wouldn't even probe... don't give them the pleasure because a) it will either unleash a nasty experience or b) they will shrug their shoulders and act like nothing is wrong, which is a lie. I would totally move on and get some distance. Go in, drop off, leave. Don't make the school your life. School is for the kids, not for us. Remove yourself. Trust me. I was so burnt. It's worth taking this advice on board. And hey, there are other lovely mums out there. Have a good chat with them. Connect. But don't get too close.

The problem with asking, even though you might be dying to know, is that it gives them permission to list off all of the things they don't like about you. Even though I'd struggle to understand it as well, I wouldn't want to give them the opportunity to list off all of my faults, as perceived by them.
It might be worth getting an acquaintance to try and find out why (if there is somebody you trust to do it subtly)

"It's really horrible behaviour from them but again there must be a reason."

But that reason may well lie with Lucy, Jayne and Anna, not with the OP.

I think if you have a problem with a friend, and they are truly a friend you care about, you address that problem with them. Talk to them. Reassure them that two people going for coffee without them is just because those two happen to want to and is no slight on anyone else. Say "look I'm sorry but it's sometimes difficult for my kids to be around your kids". It might not work and they may well be offended but at least they'll have a clue about what's happened.

I've cut friends out of my life if they've deliberately and consistently lied to me for no good reason. I've never involved anyone else in that or expected them to go along with me. Some friendships naturally wane over time. But with close friends I accept that we cannot always see eye to eye, and talk to them if I really have a problem. And accept that there are probably things about me that bug them!

Agree with those who suggest its something to do with the DHs.... did you get on very well with the DH with whom you went on holiday and he has told his wife you "hit" on him.......

That, or they are just horrible women.

This all sounds dreadful, never imagined grown women could act like this. The mature thing to do if you have an issue with a friend is to talk to them about it. Not all this freezing out nonsense, its so childish. With parents like this no wonder there is so much cattiness and bullying in schools, they get it from the parents!

Horsewalkintoabar spot on advice!

ToodleooAndPeekaboo - you aren't really describing a friendship, but an acquaintance who was convenient to know for a while and then became inconvenient. Was she ever the one invited out for coffee in just a twosome, or ever the one who had one of you dropping round for an impromptu play date, or did that just happen to the rest of you? And did you all talk about her neediness and her obnoxious children behind her back? Or did you surprise each other that you had miraculously come to the same conclusion? To be honest, it does sound as though you strung her along for a very long time when she had been openly asking you for ages what the problem was and that is no way to treat a friend.

Rabbitstew, you see there you have it. Assumptions that she was blameless and we just sacked her off.

Yes, she often just had coffee/playdates with me. During which she cared more that others had seen each other without her/us/or I had seen one of the other girls without her. It became an obsession. She absolutely wasn't being excluded, but there was a need to control who saw whom and it really put everyone off.

She was, actually, a friend not an acquaintance. Nights out, birthdays, big stuff, you name it.

And yes, we all started to find her hard work around the same time, the stuff with the kids was really awkward so we did have to discuss it together. By then it was a last straw though. Had she not gone nuclear I think it would have died a death anyway, but she did not show a shred of self awareness about the issues even when I raised them (gently) directly.

It wasn't nice of you to discuss her with the others behind her back though, toodle, which you clearly did as you all felt the need to discuss things together with her.

It sounds like you wanted to fall out with her so you instigated the others falling out with her too. Almost like you picked up on flaws of hers that you perceived and then went on about them to others until they fell out with her too. It's really not a nice thing to do.

No wonder she was upset about being excluded and about others meeting up without her as it sounds like she was deliberately being left out and excluded by you!

Just wading in to say:

Sometimes peple treat ou like shit without you having done anything to deserve it.

There is usually a reason, yes, and sometimes that reason is that the person is a c**t. Sometimes they might be jealous of you. Sometimes they might just enjoy torturing other people. Sometimes they might just decide you don't kiss their arse as much as they'd like.

Don't be fooled into believing that every time someone treats you like shit it is because of something you have done.

Actually, every time someone treats you like shit it is because they want to. And that says everything about them and very little about you OP.

Toodleoo - well, obviously she was meeting up with just you, which is why she talked to you about the others meeting up without including her. I note you fail to mention whether the others ever did... The way you handled it sounds weak, cowardly and emotionally incontinent, tbh. She clearly thought you were a real friend who wouldn't spout platitudes at her while thinking what a pita she was, but she was obviously wrong. If you have a problem with a friend not telling off their children when they hurt your children, you tell them, you don't get together in a gaggle behind her back to compare notes and be judgemental and then do the one thing that you know will hurt her most - meet up without her and without ever having had the courtesy to tell her what you really thought, which were thoughts a very long way from real friendship.

If gentle raising of the issues doesn't work, you talk a bit louder... You let the person know how important it is to you.

I just wouldn't opt for doing the one thing that friend was most paranoid about as the means of showing her you no longer liked her and that you thought she was clingy and controlling and no good with her kids.

OP it must be horrible for you.

If you are certain you haven't done anything, do you think it could be to do with your DC? I only ask because 2 sets of previously good friends have fallen out irretrievably over things happening between their DC.

toodle you were not a good friend. You listened to her and betrayed her badly. You used the power she gave you in terms of telling you how she felt to use it against her and do the thing she feared the most. You and your little gang are weakened by that behaviour, and ultimately it will be the end of that group too.

If you had a problem with their kids behaviours, you talk to her and the kids, not to others, to leave the mum out and hurt her. She had all the right to go nuclear. That was her instinct talking.

You should feel bad, very bad. Hopefully, this thread will open your eyes a bit as to the kind of person you are.

Agree toodle, that was unkind of you. Sounds like you all found her a pain and her DC / parenting difficult, talked about this to each other (but not her) then used her DC's poor behaviour and her unwise but understandable hurt outburst on social media as excuses to do what she feared and all ditch her. And you're now justifying it as protecting your DC from hers!

I'm not going to comment on individual situations - it's all so subjective - but it is bloody difficult and painful to raise issues with people as well, you know. The difficult friends are usually those who don't pick up on subtle signs, so either you gradually distance yourself or you say something and however tactful you try to be they go nuclear.

There is no easy, perfect way of dealing with these situations. It's always gruelling for both sides.

OP - you must have been perceived as having done something. I really would ask....for it to have happened overnight and for their DH's to defriend you as well.

At a guess (thinking about why I would suddenly de-friend someone) I would say that either one of the husbands said that you were coming on to them, you said something that was really offensive to one of them, or its something to do with your DD at school. I'm not saying you actually did something.

You're not going to lose anything by emailing and asking and it may be that if its a mis-understanding you can save the friendship.

Sorry guys, I'm on Tootles side - the assumption seems to be that this was a friend who was being excluded and Tootles behaved badly - as you say, she had no self awareness of what she was doing, and what effect her actions were havig on anyone.
I was in a similar situation where one of our Mum's group seemed to think it was fine to meet up with others individually, but that we couldn't meet without her - obviously we were the bad guys if we didn't fit in with her - the final straw was a complete meltdown on the dreaded Facebook because three of us went on a weekend withouot her - she wasn't even invited - how could we DO that to her? No where did she mention that the three of us were at a football tournament with the kids and her DC did not play and wasn't part of the club.... she never accepted that we never deliberately excluded her.
On the other hand, Nitty, sounds like someone has been stirring it for you. Personally I would ask, but if ignoring it works for you...

This is why Facebook is shit.

Autumnleaves - I'm not getting into a spat. I'm quite comfortable with 'the kind of person I am'. I've watched these threads quite often and it always descends into 'their little gang are all evil bitches', with the person now on the outside being told they couldn't have possibly done anything wrong to annoy anyone and it's all some queen bee plot. Adult life just doesn't work like that, in my experience.

The other two in the group were close before the rest of us, so naturally had their own thing going on in addition. The ex friend was very insecure, yes, but bitched behind the backs of the others to me about it. Where does that come into the rights and wrongs? It put me in a really awkward position, and was frankly, no fun. I asked the other two to include her more - they did - but it still wasn't enough to stop the obsessing and telling the others they shouldn't do anything as a two. Is that reasonable for adults?

Again, in real life, there's a kid whose behaviour is a problem for you. You ask people you know and trust if they think the same and how to deal with it. Not bitching, but a normal conversation about an issue.

It's hard to represent three years of a friendship going wrong in a few sentences. My point is that she was always hard work, and increasingly became a drain on me, trying to get me to side with her against the others. The fact that she didn't really care about the effect her child was having on others was the last straw. Where does her responsibility to have some self awareness as an adult and a parent come in? And yes, both issues were nicely raised with her. Once in a kind email so there was no confusion about what was being said. She really wasn't willing or able to look objectively at how she was behaving.

I do regret how things ended, yes. But I don't regret that they did. The relationship was untenable.