Who gets the snip?

[feministwithtitsin]

Hi ladies (and gents)

Me and my DH have just had our 2 DC. We are both still relatively young (I am 30, DH is 29). We have both decided that 2 children is enough for us, our family is complete. I want to retrain and focus on my career in a year or so, and, although my DH probably would like more children, we have decided that 2 is enough as we would be better financially, and I would keep my sanity!

I have had 2 caesareans, the first was a nightmare as I had an infection and the recovery time was a nightmare (5 days in hospital, alot of pain etc) the second was textbook.

As we are both young, neither of us would be looking to get the snip for at least another 5 years, just to be 100% sure, as by that time out fertility would have dropped and I think it would be too disruptive to my career, and life in general, to be having a newborn after that.

So for the next 5 years, I will be on some kind of hormone contraceptive, as condoms are too much of a pain.

The question is who should get the snip? I think my DH should as I have had 2 caseareans already and the op itself is easier, he thinks I should because the risks of vascetomies scare him (long term ball pain etc)

So, mumsnet jury! What is your verdict

I have also found the thread interesting.

It appears that the majority opinion is that its ultimately my responsibility to ensure we dont have any more children. That i should make a decision and take action as an individual, not as part of a married 'team', even though sterilisation is more complicated and less successful than vascetomy.

I am not saying i would make my DH have a vascetomy of it was against his will, or if he was not 100% sure that he didnt wany more kids.

ODFOD...

I don't dislike men posting on here.

I dislike when men post on here that because something is risky for them they should never have to consider it but they don't mind their female partners then being lumped with all the risks of hormonal/surgical contraception as well as the risks of carrying their babies.

There are risks in the whole thing so yes I am afraid the FACT that risks are lower for vasectomy vs tubal is relevant.

So what then, Dixie, men should give up on vascectomies altogether because of that risk? Many men are still happily prepared to go through with it for the greater good.

Smile - I'm not describing someone's post-operative experience as whining. I'd only apply that word to someone who refused to do it at all, on the basis of what might happen. As I said, flame away.

I asked dh if he would after we've finished having babies. He said absolutely yes, on account of the fact that I have been on the pill and therefore responsible for our contraception for the last 10 years. Fair play.
I wouldn't make him or be mad if he refused, but I would expect him to at least consider it, research it and respond based on that. If he did all that and decided he didn't want it, i would accept that. Although if he did refuse, I might suggest he finds a way to make contraception a shared responsibility now.

I don't believe that I said that men shouldn't have it done; given the choice I'd have it done again, despite the problems. I'm just saying it's not necessarily an easy, risk free option that it's sometimes portrayed as.

The whole thing of vasectomy is awful for men IS minimising the issues for women.

I've said more than once no-one should have a permanent sterilisation procedure if it is not what they want btw but I can't feel bad about how awful men apparently have it with vasectomy when it is less bad than the equivalent for women and when up until permanent sterilisation most women have been bearing all the risks without the men giving it a second thought.

Well, I never portrayed it as easy or risk free. That is not what "less risky and more effective" means

Stop with the straw man stuff, Offred

Yes I think that's the message. I agree with dowager re risks of pregnancy childbirth being massively underplayed and women just supposed to put up with them. Then with sterilisation risk to man is too high so woman should do that too.

There may be a sense as well that women even if no longer getting pleasure or if they are in pain can still "have sex" as long as they can be fucked into then it's fine while for men anything around erectile issues I'd seen as a much bigger issue.

Interesting thread.

After having twins and an emcs my DH offered to have the snip as he said I'd been through enough. If a woman is sterilised it entails an operation, DH had his vasectomy at his local surgery, much less invasive, safer, cheaper and quicker. No brainer really.

The male complications I'm talking about are not, btw 'discomfort' but things like haemotomas and granulomas, and the level of pain which may lead to orchidectomy. The rate for post operative discomfort, and minor issues like infections, is in addition to the serious complications rate.

There are however biological reasons to look at risk differently for these procedures. This is because in the female, the comparison is to the risks of pregnancy or or termination. And both (non contra-indicated) contraception and sterilisation are safer than those.

For the male, the comparison of risk is wholly altruistic, because the risk to his own body from surgery is always greater than the risk from conception.

And it was mainly female posters posting whines about 'poor men and their possible loss of sexual functioning how awful'. Women seem to get blamed for the loss of their libidos on hormones/after babies (not personally accusing you smile) and then more than one poster seems to think it's absolutely something no man should ever have to risk!

Oh you've learned a dismissive internet comment! How quaint!

Of course it's a no-brainer for people in mutually respectful relationships who are well and truly decided, as a team, that their family is complete. Especially for those men who've supported their partners through pregnancy and childbirth.

So women should get all the pain and risk because that is their lot in life.

How biblical.

That would be a medical approach scaevola but not necessarily what most couples would be thinking about. For a woman personally as an individual it is likely what you would consider but that isn't the op's situation.

The idea that girls and women should be grateful if a male deigns to wear a condom is pretty shocking actually.

I have also read that some men like to be in control of their own fertility so they don't have children all over the place. Maybe they are unusual or something (yeah right).

Oh yes, of course.

But it is his body and his choice.

And it is not risk-free for him, and I don't think the risks should be routinely written off as 'discomfort' (as that tends to trivialise it) or assumed that all complications are curable.

And of course Essure is becoming more available in UK, and is (as the data mounts) shaping up to be the safest and equal or lower risk option.

My GP told me they wouldn't sterilise me unless there were genuine medical reasons. They push hormone contraceptives and the coil, neither of which I want. ATM DH and I are using condoms, but he's going to have a vasectomy, his choice. You can't dictate to someone whether they get the snip, but sadly the NHS is happy to allow women to take responsibility for contraception for their entire fertile lives. I would have happily had my tubes snipped, I don't want any more children and am in my late 30's.

Of course, no-one's arguing with that. Just hoping people think a little more holistically about the general issues. Some of which include a general dismissiveness towards/devaluing of women's contributions to/suffering for family planning/sexual relationships and an overplaying of men's entitlements.

It's the whole thread that grated on me not specific poster taking offence. The attitude that men would suffer hugely from a reduction in sexual functioning contrasted with the general blamey atmosphere towards women who lose libido/pleasure on hormones or after babies.

It's interesting what many have said about female sterilisation not being available (likely to do with funding - very much more expensive). It's something I'll look into when I get home with my maternity group.

I asked my GP for referal to be sterilised after my second child. A resounding no. I got pregnant with twins whilst on hormonal contraception. Women are turned down for this procedure.

When DC2 was a baby, DH had a vasectomy because he didn't want any more children. If I hadn't wanted anymore children, I would have been sterilised instead. At no point did I consider using the fact that I'd had periods, the pill, miscarriages, two pregnancies and two very difficult labours and two emcs as a bargaining tool.

DH's decision to have a vasectomy was based upon his decision to have no more children and a weighing up of the risks.

Sadly, DH is one of the 10% and if I'd had a crystal ball, I'd have been sterilised in a heartbeat to save him the problems he had and continues to have.

A frank and open discussion around the risks of vasectomy doesn't have to minimise anything for women. We do not have to denigrate the experiences of one group to champion the rights of the other. This works both ways of course. I can have sympathy and an understanding of the situation for both groups of people.

There are a few MN posters who have experience of vasectomy risk and post op problems and few who are married to men who have been through it and I do think they deserve a platform without being shouted down. I've seen too many threads about men whining and fgs they should man up and it's simple and any man who isn't up and about straight away is weak and entitled. Again, I've seen stuff the other way too.

It would be nice if we could do this without the personal attacks.

I contributed to a thread last week btw where the op's DH was turned down for a vasectomy. I know a few people who had to go private as the NHS refused on the grounds of age/single child/age of children.

It's a shame we're denied autonomy over our bodies in this way.

Yes Saul I felt I had no autonomy over my own body after I had made an informed choice.