Who gets the snip?

[feministwithtitsin]

Hi ladies (and gents)

Me and my DH have just had our 2 DC. We are both still relatively young (I am 30, DH is 29). We have both decided that 2 children is enough for us, our family is complete. I want to retrain and focus on my career in a year or so, and, although my DH probably would like more children, we have decided that 2 is enough as we would be better financially, and I would keep my sanity!

I have had 2 caesareans, the first was a nightmare as I had an infection and the recovery time was a nightmare (5 days in hospital, alot of pain etc) the second was textbook.

As we are both young, neither of us would be looking to get the snip for at least another 5 years, just to be 100% sure, as by that time out fertility would have dropped and I think it would be too disruptive to my career, and life in general, to be having a newborn after that.

So for the next 5 years, I will be on some kind of hormone contraceptive, as condoms are too much of a pain.

The question is who should get the snip? I think my DH should as I have had 2 caseareans already and the op itself is easier, he thinks I should because the risks of vascetomies scare him (long term ball pain etc)

So, mumsnet jury! What is your verdict

Oh no, I'm not suggesting that. I just don't agree with the evolutionary psychology idea that it's the only reason for sex and the only purpose behind it. Procreation is one reason for sex, recreation is another. Cementing relationships, expressing feelings and so on. Everything I see and experience indicates to me that humans are among the animals who have sex for several purposes, and procreation is only one of them.

shebagood point, well made. I have to agree with you. My initial assumption was a reaction to a PP asserting that pg was a side effect of penetrative sex, so yes it was a narrow perception of sex.

After hearing everyones opinions, i still think a permanent solution is necessary for me. But this thread has been eye opening in alot of ways!

We did actually explore the risks associated with a vasectomy, for ourselves (two mathematicians married to each other, and yes, we do have sex ) and didn't just take the 10% or whatever it is being banded about as the number of men experiencing problems.

There can always be complications, there will always be the horror story, but there are some really interesting studies published if you drill down behind the headline.

Not all of the 10% will have chronic long term pain, a very small fraction of the 10% might, the rest could suffer one sided scrotum pain for 6 weeks, three months, six months etc., etc.. Some men present with occasional scrotum pain without a vasectomy, post vasectomy this pain could be blamed on the procedure, etc., etc.. So many variables.

As for me, I still have to think very carefully and pause .... before I sneeze. I definitely didn't have to do that before pregnancies.

"But as the only party for whom it's possible to get pregnant, that's exactly what has been happening. Every time a couple has sex, the female half runs the risk of getting pregnant. Every time. Whether you're consciously aware of that risk, ot not."

In which case, there's not a lot the man can do is there?
No method is 100% effective, whether the man or woman takes the hormonal/surgical/physical contraceptive.
if a man takes the "risk" of the vasectomy, and the woman gets pregnant (I guess everybody knows someone this has happened to?), the woman has also taken a risk.

I'm sorry, I don't follow your logic. So because nothing is 100%, men might as well opt out entirely and leave it all to women?

Or have I misunderstood.

No, my response to what I quoted was that even if the man does have the snip, according to the PP, he is still exposing the woman to risk.

I was 26 and DH 29 when he stepped up. Both DC had been emergency sections and we didn't want anymore pregnancies. We both spoke to the consultant and listened to the risks and DH was happy to go ahead. He was back in work in three days (builder) with very little pain post OP.

You have a few years to decide so I wouldn't be worrying now.

Yes, that's right. Everything carries a risk.

But as long as PIV sex is part of your repertoire as a couple, then you have to choose something.

In fact, this confirms something I've long thought.

For women, sex always carries a risk. And I'm not even just taking about pregnancy. The fact that a 'foreign object' is entering your body carries its own (lesser) set of risks (emotional, psychological - potentially).

And until very, very recently, women - not men - were shamed and ostracised for having sex, especially when it resulted in an unwanted pregnancy.

Further, men have always been able to walk away from the unwanted consequences of sex. Women cannot. The choices faced in those circumstances are potentially life-altering, and again open up women to judgment and condemnation.

For men, sex is nothing more or less than an urge and a recreational activity. It's fun. Or if not fun, then a power trip.

I don't think most men really have the first clue about the layers women (now, and especially historically / and/or currently in countries with restricted freedoms) have to consider, consciously or (most of the time) subconsciously.

This is why, I think, some men just can't get their head around being expected to do something at some point in their lives, in the fertility stakes.

Sorry, this is OT, but it's just got me thinking.

TheDowager
Further, men have always been able to walk away from the unwanted consequences of sex. Women cannot

I wonder if you have teenage sexually active sons?

I was just as worried about my sons getting someone pregnant as my daughters getting pregnant. At least if the girls had got pregnant they would have the choice of what to do. Boys don't have any choice in whether to terminate a pregnancy or whether to go ahead with it and the thought that they have no responsibilities if they end up fathering a child is simply not true. It can mess up their lives every bit as much as a women's.

TheDowager

For men, sex is nothing more or less than an urge and a recreational activity. It's fun. Or if not fun, then a power trip

That is incredibly sad that you think that. I'm in my late 40's and I've never had a partner who fits your description. There are lots of decent kind and loving men around it's a shame that your experience must have been so different.

Wouldn't it be difficult to parent male children during their teenage years if you think so little of 'men'?

DoesIt, whilst it is true now that there is a certain amount of recourse via the CSA, it hasn't been the case for most of history, which I think was Dowager's point, given the rest if her post about historical layers.

In no way did she say it was her personal experience, any more than me saying something like "men have always been able to join any branch of the armed forces" says anything about how many male soldiers I know.

Yonic I don't think your last post makes sense -

the OP has a depressingly low opinion of men. It makes no difference if that's because of her own experiences or not it's still a sad thing to think when there are good kind respectful and loving men in the world.

Does, I'm not sure why you read the part of my post that you italicised in such a negative way. Why is it 'incredibly sad' that I think this way?

There's nothing wrong with sex being a recreational activity....? The very reason we use contraception, and look to get sterilised, is so that we can enjoy recreational sex.

Recreational sex is fun, enjoyable, loving and intimate, and what's more, it's healthy. Good, fun, safe, consensual sex between people over the age of consent is to be encouraged, IMO.

I don't understand why you've taken against my comment.

Al I was trying to do was draw a comparison between the repercussions of sex for women, and for men. Women have recreational sex too, it's just that is also carries a risk. And historically (often even currently) a lot of social stigma.

I added on the 'power trip' comment as an after thought - even though I have never been raped, many women have, and so sex isn't always something that is done for fun.

And the situation for teenage boys in terms of unwanted pregnancies is completely true, but this is only a very recent social change in expectation (historically speaking) as women have finally managed to gain some equality.

Dowager

I've reread your comment and it still sounds very dismissive. for men, sex is nothing more or less than an urge and a recreational activity......

It doesn't imply anything to do with loving and intimate relationships. However, I accept that you meant it to.

Anyway, you meant it one way and I read it another, it's really no biggie.

All dowager means is there is very little to stop a man walking away from a child and forever escaping any kind of responsibility for them.

That's really why the outrage happened in the first place. Women still get landed with the consequences of both peopl having sex and are still expected to be fully responsible and also blamed. The idea that men should not ever have to think about their role in contraception or family planning is pretty grim therefore.