Men, attraction, relationships and sex

[FolkGirl]

I started a thread a couple of weeks ago because I was considering ending things with my bf because, ultimately I am not enough for him. I'm not young enough, or slim enough or pretty enough.

I haven't ended yet because haven't had chance. I want to do it in person and I want to tell him why.

I'm ok with it now, but the reasons have been playing on my mind.

I've made no secret n here of my issues of self loathing. In short, my mother taught me to hate myself - my looks, my body, my personality, my idiosyncrasies... in fact, to this day, other than the fact try not to take any more than I need (from the world/other people/society), I cannot think of a single positive thing I could say about myself.

Now I've posted on here before because I've never been loved or cherished and, somehow, I only end up in relationships with men who don't even fancy me! I think they want to, they just don't.

I just don't get it. I mean I get that they don't fancy me, but what I don't get is that other people try and convince you that someone will. Or why other people's experiences are so different.

The bottom line is that, it doesn't matter how many times women say "men who like women like women" or "not all men like skinny women" both on here amd in rl, the message I consistently get from men is that I'm unattractive and not slim enough.

This message comes in the form of - losing interest after seeing me naked; constantly looking at/commenting on/becoming aroused by slimmer more attractive women when I don't have the same effect; actually commenting on the fact I'm not slim
or pretty enough.

I'm 5'3" and wear size 12/14 clothes so, no, I'm not slim. But I'm not 'huge' either.

Not really sure what I'm asking really. I suppose, why do people say that men aren't that bothered about skinny women and it's not all about looks (both of which I've believed in my 2.5yrs of being single) when the verbal and non verbal feedback I've had from all men is that they are. Is ita lie women tell themselves/each other just to feel better? Does anyone actually believe it?

There are only a couple of people irl who know how I feel, so I certainly don't go around being miserable and moany about this. I'm not going to reveal my weaknesses to everyone! Who/where are these men who don't expect a woman to look like a model?

"I want someone who fancies me and who finds me attractive who would choose me over anyone else, who misses me and thinks about me when I'm not there and isn't constantly on the lookout for someone better.

I want someone who doesn't think they can do any better than me, without thinking I'm the best they could do. Iykwim."

Yes, I do. What you describe is a normal healthy relationship. I don't know why the self esteem stuff you mention hasn't worked long term. Probably it is time to explore that childhood stuff, it might be that which is holding you back. Did you check out the Stately Homes thread? The ladies there are extremely wise.

The only thing I can think is that are you perhaps looking for this kind of exclusivity and, well, love, too soon into the relationship? I would definitely expect this kind of feeling from DH or a long term boyfriend, but I don't think that I would expect someone to seriously think I am the best thing ever and the only one they would choose early on. That comes later, IME. Not sure what others think about this? But of course at any point a partner making it clear that they find you unattractive is a dealbreaker.

I didn't see your other thread - what actually happened?

Thank you Helena flips hairs...tis beautiful !

I think Bertie makes an excellent point, I think the level of commitment whereby someone basically forsakes all others comes later rather than sooner, in most relationships. Although sometimes men fall hard very quickly, but its often shallow men who do so, who have no depth of feeling. So perhaps one to avoid rather than seek.

I think too that online dating is a whole other culture, which sadly seeps into every other area of our lives. But then its only existent because we have become accustomed to browsing on line, putting things in the basket, saving it and then at checkout dumping it before choosing an alternative.

Online also increases the chances of long distance which comes with a new set of problems, of surveillance, time, trust. Combine the element of seemingly endless choice and boredom that drove you to Pof or wherever at the start...well its not ideal. Relationships don't move forward naturally at a distance, and people are apt to dip back into the pond because they still haven't filled the void. And in our consumer culture where we believe everything has a price, everything can be had at the click, delivered on tap, where we want always better, where our desires are shaped by media, of course we are all becoming vapid and vacuous (well we aren't but the rest are )

I would avoid these two phenomena entirely, even women with self esteem in bucket loads leave with only half their sanity intact! OP.

Folkgirl I know just where you're coming from. I'm similar, and I actually think its been getting worse as I get older. As a teenager and in my twenties I tended to end up with men I wasn't that into, but then stbxh turned up and basically destroyed my confidence. Since then I think I've only been attracted to people who weren't that into me. Maybe I'm protecting myself from getting into anything meaningful. I don't know. I think we both need some counselling - maybe it will be worth the money in the long run.

There are lots of men who like women of all shapes and sizes. My bf loves my body and I'm super plus size. He loves just to look at me.
You are either dating dick head men or it's just your self consciousness.

Agree Mini.

Folkgirl i thought you may like to see this. A reminder that there are lovely men out there.

www.redonline.co.uk/fashion/fashion_news/man-donates-wifes-wedding-dress-with-heartbreaking-note

Thank you for the thought, Helena

I have read all of the posts. More than once. There are loads I want to reply to, but don't really have the capacity to do so on my phone. It's very annoying!

I think the advice to contact women's aid to see if they can recommend a therapist is a good one. I'll try that.

Bertie only been seeing him for a few months. Invites me out with his friends a lot (I make excuses); wants to see me in his spare time; hobbies and good friends; but compliments dried up after we dtd (still does occasionally but they feel a little forced rather than natural); comments about it being hard getting used to the idea of not being able to date young women anymore amd having to realistically consider older women (feel a bit settled for); looking at younger women wherever we go and I just feel like I'm in the way.

I don't really care if he looks when I'm not there. I do. That's life. But in front of me...comments about really fancying a colleague and flirting with her loads but not doing anything about it because he was married... I remembered a couple of just crap immature insensitive comments he's made too. Not deal breakers in their own right, but with everything else... my self esteem just isn't secure enough.

I can't imagine he was like it with his ex from what I've heard of her. So she must have been enough for him.

Mini I know what you've said is not wrong and I could choose to internalise the alternative message. But I don't think I'm wrong. Which is where cbt is an issue!

I can't imagine he was like it with his ex from what I've heard of her.

Of course he was, rubber-necking doesn't start suddenly in middle age. She's his ex, so something didn't work between them.

I have healthy self-esteem and I wouldn't put up with a man who behaved as he does because it's disrespectful. I think he's a bit of an arse who doesn't know how to handle himself around women.

I think if you had better experiences with men & higher expectations, you wouldn't have put up with him.

The thing is, when we were first getting to know each other we asked the other what we were looking for on another person and from a relationship. He didn't mention any physical preferences at all beyond hair colour. And then the age thing crept in. But I don't know how serious he was about that. He is early 40s and was looking for someone aged late 20s to late 40s.

But with everything else, I do just feel like he's 'settled' for me

But after reading this thread, I now can't tell how much he's a complete arse and how much I'm applying a faulty filter.

Twinklestein yes, you're probably right about that

Folkgirl i remember you posting that when you were out on a date with him and sitting in traffic he craned his neck round so much to almost strain himself to look at a young woman he saw. He does NOT respect you.

Im 42 next week and i wouldnt do the equivilant I have no interest in young men in their twenties AT ALL.

Oh Folk Girl, I'm sorry. It's not you, it's him. He's a twat. I know how you feel, I do. For ten years I went from very abusive marriage, to sort of emotionally abusive relationship, thru a string of players and toxic bachelors who went really interested in settling for me. So, not the best way to feel good about myself. The difference is, that despite all that not exactly making me feel ace, my mother , nuts as she is, didn't do a number on me like yours did on you.
I would actually put money on you being above average in the looks department. The problem is that you probably emanate self loathing, and are attracted to men who sense this and prey on it to make themselves feel like King Big Dick. I would also lay money on your boyfriend not being all that hot.
Generally, I have noticed that it's often the quiet bookish "sensitive "men who can be the shallowest.
Yes, do get some therapy, but also maybe be open to other types of men.
I finally met someone awesome, totally not my usual type. I'm a reader, he's probably never read a novel. In fact I know he hasn't. I am all about the charity shop clothes he wears a 5k watch and drives a bmw, but we have an emotional connection, he cares about me, he does a million little things that make me feel loved, and I have not yet ( early days) seen him check out another woman. He laughs when I fart and doesn't seem to notice when I don't wear make up.
It took me a while to be able to accept compliments, and believe them, and also to actually accept a man being nice to me. It felt all wrong! Ok, it will probably all go tits up now I have waxed lyrical, but my point is that shitty relationships with men (and mothers) can really skew your perspective of the way you think you should be treated.
You will find love if you can believe you deserve it.

IfNotNow I hope it does work out for you! He sounds lovely.

I know I just sound like I'm making excuses or whatever, but the last man I went out with was a bit if a step out of my comfort zone and I still got that wrong!

I don't know. Perhaps I do need to just forget about the whole thing, for a while. I don't really find someone genuinely attractive all that often.

And I am conscious that I'm not getting any younger.

He's asked to see me this weekend. Given illness and other commitments on both sides, I haven't seen him since that date when he was obviously looking round me at the young woman in the car next to us.

I wanted to tell him in person with a reason. I know people on here always say it's enough to just say "it's not working for me" but irl, that always sounds a bit lacking. Particularly when we did get on as well as we did and there hasn't been a conversation or prior warning. That on its own isn't going to make sense and doesn't seem fair.

I suppose I don't know what to say.

Say exactly what you think. "I've had a nice time with you, but the way you check out other women while I'm right next to you is disrespectful, and frankly a real turn off."

And DON'T apologise for it, or let him make you feel like you are unrealistic or over reacting. Your feelings about this are normal and healthy, it's his behaviour that is unacceptable.

Yes I think I pretty much will tell him that. I'm sure he'll just deny that has does it though. I suppose that I do just need to remember that it is a real turn off.

Yeah, he'll either deny doing it, or say that it's just what guys do.

Either way, don't engage. You've explained clearly, it doesn't matter whether he accepts it or not. You don't have to defend your position.

One more thing. I don't suppose he would be considered 'hot' by a lot of people. Physically, I don't really have a type - but I do have features that I like and he ticks all of those. I really don't go for looks - if I find someone attractive then I find them attractive.

But that whole "I bet he's not all that great to look at" position part if the problem. I don't judge myself in relation to a man, but in relation to other women. That's where I find myself lacking.

And also I don't want someone to look at a young, slim attractive woman and think "I have no chance with her" and then look at me and regretfully think "I'd probably stand more chance with her". That's he 'settling' bit.

I'm wondering whether to tell him via email and not meet him at all. I'm worried that I'll get upset or say too much or be talked round.

I think you are way over thinking this. This man has showed no respect by his actions and silly little disparaging utterances. Just send a text or email saying you have met a "young fantastic looking guy, a real head turner, and you just couldn't settle for someone so old" !! or not, your choice, I know I would.

Too few hours in the day to write or meet with such a toad. Spend that time instead looking into CBT or therapy.

But when you like a man it's not that you pick just the youngest and most handsome man you can get, is it? Don't most people want a package- personality, looks, charisma, humour etc?

Men are not so different and so shallow. You have more to offer than the shape of your body.

Having said that, I wouldn't be with someone who checked out other people in front of me, that's really disrespectful. Get rid!

Swede see, when I'm feeling ok, I do tell myself that, and I can see that I agree with it and can get my head around it briefly, but it doesn't last. I can't sustain it. And whilst I can see it makes sense today, I don't believe it.

Folkgirl he knows damn well that he does it. If he tries to deny it then he will be gaslighting you.

At the very least i reckon he will try to minimize it. Hes a disrespectful arsehole.

I've just read some of your other thread and he sounds absolutely vile. Normally I wouldn't recommend breaking up with someone via email but in this case I wouldn't feel bad about it at all. If it's going to upset you then there's no point in seeing him.

He sounds like he's suffering from a major mid-life crisis and can't accept that he's getting older. I'd leave him to get on with it. I'd be honest and say why you're doing it as you don't have to worry about his reaction via email or him trying to make excuses and changing your mind. I wouldn't say that you feel insecure about yourself but that his constant gawping at young women and his horrible comment about the older woman is disrespectful to both them and you and you're not going to put up with this kind of behaviour.

I wouldn't bother with some Dear John speech, what reason do you have to give behind the fact it's not working for you?

If he presses just tell him it's because he's an arse.

It's very difficult for you to stand up against the negative loop that's running in your head. That's why you need serious therapy because you need help from someone experienced to challenge it. For the moment it's not about finding the right guy, it's about finding the right relationship with yourself.

Xpost with Pandora - quite.

Just a quick update.

I went out with him last night. I just wanted to make sure I was seeing what I thought i was seeing and not imagining things, etc.

I wasn't imagining it. He picked me.up and a woman of about 21 was walking down the street and, even though we were talking, he turned to watch her has she passed.

We went out for dinner and I realised that he looked at all the young women when we walked in and that I positioned myself so that he sat with his back to the room and also that I felt tense and anxious when the young, attractive waitress came over.

I don't want to feel like that, so this morning, I emailed him and ended it.

He has a lot on today, so he won't have read it yet.

I do feel sad. We were so compatible and got on so well. If i could have made someone from Build-a-Man workshop, it would have been him, but for this. But I just can't be in a relationship that makes me feel like that.

It's ok to have a little cry isn't it..?