Men, attraction, relationships and sex

[FolkGirl]

I started a thread a couple of weeks ago because I was considering ending things with my bf because, ultimately I am not enough for him. I'm not young enough, or slim enough or pretty enough.

I haven't ended yet because haven't had chance. I want to do it in person and I want to tell him why.

I'm ok with it now, but the reasons have been playing on my mind.

I've made no secret n here of my issues of self loathing. In short, my mother taught me to hate myself - my looks, my body, my personality, my idiosyncrasies... in fact, to this day, other than the fact try not to take any more than I need (from the world/other people/society), I cannot think of a single positive thing I could say about myself.

Now I've posted on here before because I've never been loved or cherished and, somehow, I only end up in relationships with men who don't even fancy me! I think they want to, they just don't.

I just don't get it. I mean I get that they don't fancy me, but what I don't get is that other people try and convince you that someone will. Or why other people's experiences are so different.

The bottom line is that, it doesn't matter how many times women say "men who like women like women" or "not all men like skinny women" both on here amd in rl, the message I consistently get from men is that I'm unattractive and not slim enough.

This message comes in the form of - losing interest after seeing me naked; constantly looking at/commenting on/becoming aroused by slimmer more attractive women when I don't have the same effect; actually commenting on the fact I'm not slim
or pretty enough.

I'm 5'3" and wear size 12/14 clothes so, no, I'm not slim. But I'm not 'huge' either.

Not really sure what I'm asking really. I suppose, why do people say that men aren't that bothered about skinny women and it's not all about looks (both of which I've believed in my 2.5yrs of being single) when the verbal and non verbal feedback I've had from all men is that they are. Is ita lie women tell themselves/each other just to feel better? Does anyone actually believe it?

There are only a couple of people irl who know how I feel, so I certainly don't go around being miserable and moany about this. I'm not going to reveal my weaknesses to everyone! Who/where are these men who don't expect a woman to look like a model?

Crumpet - that's a shitty thing to say!Why would someone even say something like that?!

Glad you've made an appointment Folk
Don't be embarrassed, that's what they are there for.
Good luck with it.

Oh people say stupid things about women's looks all the time: they might want to hurt you, bring you down, they might not know it will hurt you, they are troubled etc.

On a societal level, I'd like to see more attention paid to women's other achievements (this is so slow to happen) on an ind level, you can't let it bother you.
Couple of young men made donkey noises at me in the street the other day- such is my self confidence that I couldn't believe it was to me- then when I realised that it was, I was so annoyed I wanted to go over and shout 'your mothers would be proud of you'. What annoyed me most was that they'd do it to some 15 yr old who would go home broken hearted...

John things like that make me very angry indeed. Interestingly enough, I received more negative comments ('you have thick lips', 'your eyes are squinty', low ranking out of 10) when I was younger and looked lovely! I think it is a direct attempt to put you down. Although larger ladies also get a lot of abuse- it's a display of male power and not about the woman at all.

Folkgirl all the best with this, I had a measure of BDD myself til about my late twenties, believing myself to be hideously ugly. I eventually left it behind. It is a disordered way of thinking and not linked to how you actually look. Now I think I look better than I do and am always slightly disappointed when I catch sight of myself in a mirror and I'm not a total hot babe!

I have mostly skim read, but just to echo what others are saying really. You might not think that you come across as vulnerable, but in your posts you're saying things like "I just want someone to love me" "I can't think of a single positive thing to say about myself". When you have this kind of thought pattern, the unfortunate thing is that it doesn't matter how you come across to friends or professionally, I don't know how, but relationship wise it seems to send an invisible beacon out which attracts twats and kitten-rescuers and which makes decent men stay away, not because they think you're unattractive, or hard work, or anything like that, but because they somehow sense that you're not really available for a relationship at the moment. And you're not - you're not ready. Viewing yourself as not ready for a relationship, rather than not worthy of one is key, I think, because you really have to get to that point, before you can start working on getting yourself ready.

I'm really glad to hear that you're going to the doctor, I hope it's helpful. Counselling is hit and miss and might not be the thing that you need, so if it's not, don't worry just yet. It might also be worth looking for a private counsellor, because then you have more choice over the method and the individual person as well. It costs, but for the right counsellor/therapist, it will be worth it. Make sure you're happy with someone before you pay. Some random other things which may or may not be helpful:

Book - The Happiness Project

Baggage Reclaim Build your self-esteem course

Freedom Programme (Helps break unhealthy ideas about men/relationships and build healthier ones)

Facebook group about fashion/style for those of us who are clueless and a bit turned off by the words fashion and style. It's nice. I'm finding out what I look good in by analysing colour and shape, which is very interesting. Of course you could also try the Style and Beauty threads on mumsnet, who are just as friendly and welcoming.

And if I mention that, I have to mention this... which is a book which is supposedly about tidying/organising your house, but somehow ends up being all about finding out what you like and who you are, which is really useful if you've never taken the time to do that, because it's a step by step process.

And finally, the Stately Homes threads. For children of toxic parents.

Good luck - I am quite excited for you to discover your inner shine, because we all do have one. It's just a case of uncovering it, usually where we've stuffed it away to hide it from other people who were just jealous in the first place or didn't understand us.

I'm so bloody angry on your behalf, OP. Listen, your mother had every intention of putting you down when she made those remarks about your physical characteristics. My mother was the same; I had a dirty-looking face, fat arms and legs. She used to delight in laughing about my alleged blackheads with her friends. I felt humiliated and unattractive, and still do, deep down, although I'm much, much older now. Only now I realise that she was doing it deliberately (she did the same thing with my avhievements) and it's taken me this long to realize her actions were borne out of spite and jealousy. I look back at photos of myself and all I see is an ordinary teenager, not some monstrously fat, spotty misfit. Her judgement of me has wrecked my confidence and affected my life negatively.

And those elderly men are doing exactly the same. They stand no chance with a slim young woman with gorgeous curves so, instead, they project their bitterness onto the woman because they know she's way out of their league.

Please, please get some help with this.

folkgirl

I don't expect any of my comments to change the way you think about yourself either, but I wanted to add my two-pennies because I do identify with a lot of what you say to some degree.

I'm the youngest of 3 sisters. My older sisters take after my mum and are very beautiful. Me? Well, I look exactly like my dad. He's an attractive man but it doesn't transfer well on a female. I well remember by grandmother often telling me that it's a good job I had brains because my sisters were so pretty. I grew up with every boy I ever liked wanting to be my "friend" so they could meet my sisters.

I'm a size 12/14 too. I have a long nose and very nondescript other features and I've battled with so many insecurities too.

But I do know that there are men out there who find people like us attractive. Yes, I've been on dates where the man clearly didn't fancy me, which is a big dent to the ego, but I also know there are men who do so I don't need to pursue the ones that don't.

I remember reading that men do go on an initial attraction, like women do, but that is mostly not about about the whole package, it's about something that catches their eye that makes the whole person attractive, like eyes or teeth or bum or boobs or something. That's how so many "normal" looking people end up in loving relationships.

For me, I know I'm ordinary, but like you sometimes when I dress up I feel like I scrub up quite well. I know the thing that attracts people to me is I smile and laugh a lot and the only thing I inherited from my mother was a nice set of teeth.

Your tiny waist and long neck sound like very attractive features and they are things that will be noticed.

A lot of men DO love curves. My boyfriend met my beautiful eldest sister, who I've always envied for being SO slim, for the first time recently. And he actually said that night (while not being rude) that he didn't realise she was so thin and asked if she was OK. Horse for courses.

I think some horrible men do get off on making women feel bad about themselves. I work in a male dominated industry and am great friends with many of my colleagues but I had a horrible time a couple of years ago because two of them thought it was funny to make horrible comments about my appearance. It was very upsetting, but what was comforting was the reaction of the other men, they were shocked they could be so rude, some actually said to me they didn't even think the comments were true. They were just horrible men who saw me as an easy target.

I know what you mean about feeling like you come across as a confident person and people can't possibly detect your insecurities because you work so hard not to show them. And you wonder why you keep attracting people like that? But I think the fact is how you feel about yourself does affect your behaviour and people know there is a weakness or vulnerability there. And it also dramatically lowers your standards in terms of how you expect to be treated.

I act like a confident person too, but I have had a couple of relationships where men picked up very quickly on the fact I say sorry too quickly. They turned out to be excellent guilt trippers who made me feel bad about everything. Very often people just do what they can get away with.

Your current bf might have an impeccable record. I bet in his previous relationships he wouldn't have eyed up the waitress because he knew he wouldn't get away with doing it in his exes' presence.

I do agree it's all about learning to love yourself and setting a bar for how you know you deserve to be treated.

I agree with a lot of what has already been said far more eloquently than I could. I see a lot of very average looking people happy with other average looking people. I see also some fabulously attractive people walking hand in hand with not so fabulously attractive partners, and they look happy too.

Yes men will look, they may comment, they may even live a little dream in their head where all the most attractive young women will fall at their feet. And at least a little part of this is a game, a sort of bluff. With confidence one shrugs it off, makes a little dig back reminding them that they are living in cuckoo land. I think we kid ourselves if we think that there are men who never look.

I think also there are lots of women who look, mostly women are more clandestine, keep comments to themselves or to those moments when they laugh with their friends about the hot new guy in the office. It doesn't mean anything most of the time.

So I think its quite natural for men and women to look at other people and find them attractive despite, or because of, or irrespective of who they are actually partnered with. I have a couple of very beautiful friends and I have seen their partners glancing backwards to eye up someone, or they flirt with me some 10 years older.

It doesn't mean that quite literally everyone wants to flit off with the passing object of their fancy. Most people realise quite rationally that love, support, friendship, laughter and affection is what makes relationships work, not dress sizes. Trust me when I say that I have met elderly couples, toothless, incontinent, deaf, and daft who still literally wonder at how lucky they have been.

There is someone for everyone, don't settle for people who make you second best, but likewise do not impose ridiculous standards upon others born out of your own lack of confidence. Instead, take a break from dating and work on loving yourself, the rest will follow.

Hi all.

Thanks again, so much for all your advice.

I couldn't get an appointment today. My surgery is ridiculous!
My waist isn't tiny any more - that was 2 stones ago! The thing is, as soon as I'm single again, I'll feel better about myself almost immediately anyway. I always do. I think I just hoped that this time would be different because he seemed different and I felt different about myself.

I don't ever go for the jack the lad types. They're always quiet, intellectual, bookish, creative, outsdoorsy... there's rarely a whiff of testosterone. They generally have good and appropriate relationships with their female friends and family. I don't attract the sort of men in the first place that like glamorous, high maintenance women.

I attract the sort who are happy to sit in a muddy field wrapped in a blanket around a fire or to take hot chocolate, crusty bread, brie and nothing else on a picnic in early spring. Not the types for champagne and fine dining.

And I'm still not enough. It breaks my heart that I don't have anything more to offer than what I am and it's not enough. Because no matter what they say about what they are looking for or what they think about me, the bottom line is that they all want someone younger, slimmer and prettier.

I am going to take some time for myself, but it doesn't matter how much better I feel about myself. Men are still only ever going to make do with me.

This most recent man and I were very well suited in so many ways, and yet I atill wasn't enough for him. And I can't see that being any different with anyone because, as someone else said, I would wonder what was wrong with them and I don't think I would recognise anything genuine.

Thanks again.

And even if I did meet someone one day, there's no way they wouldn't be looking at other women on tv or in the street wishing they were with them instead or wondering what it would be like to fuck them instead. There is nothing for me in all of this. Those of you who do it are amazing!

And even if I did meet someone one day, there's no way they wouldn't be looking at other women on tv or in the street wishing they were with them instead or wondering what it would be like to fuck them instead. There is nothing for me in all of this.

That is not fact. That is your opinion, based on your interpretation of what has happened to you in the past. You see the difference, right?

I'll give you a scenario:

Two couples are sitting at an outside cafe table, having an enjoyable conversation. An attractive waitress comes to the table to take their order.

Woman A thinks: "She's cute, and I LOVE her shoes. I might ask her where she got them."

Woman B thinks: "She's cute. So much cuter than me. I bet he thinks so too, and wishes he was with someone like her. Why did I even think he'd be attracted to me in the first place? Nobody ever is. I was kidding myself."

Same scenario - same 'facts' - different thought processes.

You need to stop believing your opinions as fact. You CAN work on this. That's where CBT can really help.

Hm. Woman B would be me. I start avoiding social events so that whoever I'm with doesn't have the shame of being seen in public with me. I wouldn't dream of trying to stop them going though and usually just say I have work to do or I'm tired and need an early night. The most recent man, I hadn't met his best couple friends because I was worried about what they'd say about me not being good enough afterwards.

The issue I have with cbt, and always have though, is that it only challenges your perception and not the truth. Woman b might be right in every thing she thinks. Just because woman a chooses to focus on the shoes doesn't mean 'he' wouldn't rather be with the waitress instead.

I just feel incredibly guilty most of the time that I'm not better than I am. I feel bad for whoever I'm with that they are with me and not someone better. I feel embarrassed that people will think I think I'm better than I am.

And it isn't just appearance based. It's about a fundamental feeling of worthlessness.

Yes that is true, folkgirl.

And unfortunately, it does seem like it might be true with the guy you are with at the moment. But that's because...he is a dickhead. No decent man behaves like that.

You are not acknowledging a few things:

1. That stuff happens to many women, regardless of their level of attractiveness.
2. That's because it's about the MAN, not about the woman.
3. Most women would kick that guy to the kerb - which is exactly what you're doing!
4. You will use this man (and past experiences) to use as evidence that NO MAN will ever prefer you over just about any other women. THIS IS THE THINKING THAT IS FAULTY.

This is your filter. You MUST change your filter.

Yes you're right about 4. That's my starting point. To the extent that I'm not even sure I'd recognise it if I met a decent man. Given that they all look/notice to some degree, how do you know the difference?

Tbh, it doesn't even take them to notice someone better. Just me noticing and being reminded is enough!

As others have said, OP, there's nothing in your description to suggest your bf doesn't actually like, love or fancy you. Many of us enjoy looking at other, attractive people; it certainly doesn't mean mean don't fancy our partners. The reality is that most people can deal with their other half doing this. You can't, and you read (possibly too much) into it. This suggests to me that this is entirely about your self-esteem.

If you want to end it with your bf, you should. However, it would be a shame to end an otherwise good relationship because you're effectively imagining negative feelings that aren't there on his part. Could it be that you have an unrealistic or romanticise expectation of relationships? Not all are define by endless comments and daily declarations of undying love.

Others have suggested learning to love yourself first. This is good advice, but I'd suggest you don't put your life on hold while you do so, or you'll never end up living it. Life and relationships are full of quirks and imperfections; don't disregard them in the pursuit of an unrealistic ideal.

Folk Girl. Sad thread because probably the only person who sees what you see is you. Yes a man will look at a stunning girl but for me it's so much more than that, a truly sexy woman can have any look because it's the self confidence and the twinkle in the eye that do it every time. It sounds like the gene pool of the men you meet only has a shallow end, some how, and it's not easy, you need to walk around confident head high and think sod you all. Things will change when the right chap comes along who thinks you are the top totty that I suspect you are.

The fact is, there will ALWAYS be more attractive women than you.

All women have to accept this. (So do men, of course, but they don't care nearly as much. That's because their value to society is not usually based on their appearance.)

Your thinking is this:

A. That woman is more attractive than me (fact, possibly)
B. Because she is more attractive than me, she is BETTER than me (judgement)
C. Because she is better than me, he must only be settling for me and would prefer to be with someone like her (belief)

We ALL have to accept A. It is a fact of life.

We do NOT have to accept B or C. They are NOT facts.

So- what you are saying is that we (over forties) are all making do with guys who actually want to be with hotter younger twenty somethings? Pretty much everyone in the world (as very few men are with some idealised younger beauty, even those people age) is into a mass delusion where we all pretend it's ok our partners don't like us and really fancy other people.

Ummmm, no, not really. In fact, not at all.

Your thinking on this issue is very disordered, there's nothing any of us can say. Hope you get that appointment or perhaps some counselling at a discount if you don't earn a huge amount. Look for someone who specialises in BDD.

Good luck with it all, the fact that you feel much happier single shows how deep this stuff runs, but it must be a better choice than feeling worthless when you date, for now at least.

Well, quiet, bookish, outdoorsy blokes can be tossers as well you know :) Not just the laddish types. And some laddish types can be very sweet under the posturing. Don't assume that because they're bookish and outdoorsy, that makes them sweet and if even these sweet guys don't like you then there's nothing. It just doesn't work that way - shallowness is an internal trait and may or may not show itself immediately. Of course there are nice bookish, outdoorsy blokes too. But they're steering clear, because you're giving off this vibe of "I'm not good enough".

You said that you couldn't think of anything positive about yourself. Is there anything at all, in the past, something someone else said (even if you don't believe it), something which seems insignificantly small, which is positive? Even if there's a "but..." (Hold the but!)

What makes you (or has ever made you) feel proud? Feel alive? When was the last time you remember enjoying yourself, what were you doing?

If nothing else, can you tell us what qualities and achievements you admire in other people?

FolkGirl

I've only read your OP so forgive me if I'm missing something.

How you feel about yourself is not right, your mother seems to have done a 'real' job on you, my initial impression is she is not a very nice woman for making you feel this way about yourself (sorry if you've posted something else about her in this thread and I've insulted you)

The simple fact is, you have not met the right man yet. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You may be un attractive to the men you have met but you are the most beautiful, sexy woman on the planet so men that you have not met.
My DW is a little shorter than you at 5ft 2in and wears the same size clothes. I don't need to tell you that this IS average! your not skinny (sorry) your not large. You are just like every other woman you would meet walking down the street.

When you meet the right man. and you WILL, he should start to make you feel good about yourself. Now after years of self loathing caused by your mother and the wrong partners it will be tough on the guy as you will likely reject his compliments (my DW does and it's quite frustrating) but give it time, learn to accept those compliments graciously and gradually you will start to feel good about yourself. When you start to feel good about yourself inside you will notice the changes outside.

It's pointless me telling you to stop feeling bad about yourself, you need the right partner to do that, so pick yourself up, dust yourself down and get out there. You will meet some wrong 'uns but somewhere out there is a man who will make you feel special, beautiful, sexy, hot, attractive, fanciable....

Go get 'em

I'd actually recommend not basing your self esteem on what a man thinks of you. I can empathise with you so much - I was desperate to be loved but was convinced I was unattractive and unlovable. I did meet a guy who genuinely seemed to love me for me, said I was his perfect woman etc. It was wonderful but I made him the centre of my life, he's what made me feel good about myself. I ended it because he committed a serious crime whilst he was with me. Bit of an extreme case I know but I'm sure you can imagine how shit it made me feel. It made me question whether it was all a lie, whether he'd manipulated me etc. It was really devastating. I do actually believe now that he did love me for various reasons but those doubts are still there. Plus it made me feel like there must be something wrong with me to have attracted someone like that. Because all of my self esteem was tied up in him loving me and being attracted to me, when it was over I had nothing. I realised as lovely as it was to have someone cherish me that I cannot base all of my self esteem on that. I'll never make that mistake again.

I do completely understand how you feel though. Because I have mental health problems and severe social anxiety I always feel like no-one could possibly be interested in me. With my ex, I always feared he'd leave me for somebody more outgoing and fun. I avoided meeting his friends for months because I felt like an embarrassment - I'm pretty socially awkward and I thought they'd all think I was a weirdo and they'd wonder what on earth he's doing with me.

Personally, in your shoes I wouldn't date. It clearly makes you feel really bad about yourself and I think you need to work on building your self esteem outside of men. And I've met plenty of bookish tossers. Sometimes the blokey bloke football loving types are actually kinder and more considerate.

Folk you are good enough and I hope that one day you can get to a place where you not only believe that but truly understand it too, you can't rely on a man to validate that though as it just doesn't work.

You won't ever change the fact that pretty much all hetrosexual men do and will notice a pretty woman (even when they have their own) for me, it's how they react after noticing that matters the most - 2 second rule applies, look for longer than that then that crosses into 'checking them out' territory which is not acceptable. I don't give a flying frig what they do when I'm not there - they can drool if they wish but if I'm with them then I expect respect. I had one BF who didn't give a shit and I told him that myself and friends mentally call guys like him 'dickhead' for checking us out while with their own partners - he wasn't bothered but that's the kind of guy he was = a dickhead and not worth my time, energy or respect.

Your mother has really warped your view of yourself and I'm so sorry that you are suffering.

There's a lot of evidence that men actually don't approach good looking women that much. Unless they are all over them or basically beckoning them to come over. Men are usually scared of rejection. They like apps like Tinder because it takes out the need to grow balls and talk to women in a pub.

If you are self assured you probably would do a bit more 'fishing' for men and therefore more men would feel able to talk to you. If you are shy you may well find you are attracting the wrong men; men who like to control women usually look for the insecurities in women they can take over.

You really do need to work on yourself. You are all you have in this world. No one else will know all of you and you will never know all of someone else. I remember hating pics of myself in my teens and twenties, that I look at now and wonder why the heck I thought I was fat/boobless/weird looking. You get older and wiser every day, so use the energy on yourself for a better tomorrow.

The fact is your mother's mistreatment in your childhood created a very negative image of yourself inside and out. What you have been conditioned to believe is that you are unattractive. It is how your mother conditioned your brain to work.

When that happens in childhood, it means you will only accept comments that match the image you have of yourself. If someone gives you a compliment, you can't accept it because it doesn't match what you believe is the 'truth' about yourself. But when someone makes a negative remark, you absorb it because it matches the negative image you hold of yourself.

It leaves you in a kind of trap because you believe these negative comments to be 'true' (because you can't possibly believe otherwise) yet they are still very hurtful and reinforce that feeling of worthlessness you have carried with you since a very young age, due to your mother's treatment of you.

So, you accept relationships where men are rude or unkind to you, because it matches your perception, but at the same time you know it is hurtful to you to hear it. These men are being intentionally cruel. If you love and care for someone, you wouldn't say these things or even look for them. It is true that you haven't met the right man yet.

Therapy is really the only way to tackle the image you have of yourself. But in the meantime you might want to seek out some confidence, self-esteem books and books about emotionally detached mothers. They will help you explore how your self-image was created in childhood and start you on the journey whereby you tackle what you believe is 'truth' and reality.

Like you have already said, this is the hardest thing to do. It makes you feel very vulnerable when you have to tackle your own beliefs because they are all you have known to hang on to. A therapist can be very good at gently leading you into a discussion whereby you are faced with tackling your belief system vs reality, where you know that you have to think differently because what you believe can't be true in the face of evidence. It's this process of investigating your own image that will be of most benefit to you (how it was created, how you continue to believe it and why). Through this process you will slowly challenge what you think is the 'truth' about yourself and your world will open up even more than it has.

Because the reality is you sound like a very social, interesting, attractive woman that would be a great partner for a decent, social, interesting, attractive man. And they do exist. Finally I have found mine, who has been very supportive of me as I am going through this process myself. It is long and slow (and challenging and scary at times) but has me seeing myself and the world in a new, positive way.

Good luck, I hope you get the therapy you need.