Men, attraction, relationships and sex

[FolkGirl]

I started a thread a couple of weeks ago because I was considering ending things with my bf because, ultimately I am not enough for him. I'm not young enough, or slim enough or pretty enough.

I haven't ended yet because haven't had chance. I want to do it in person and I want to tell him why.

I'm ok with it now, but the reasons have been playing on my mind.

I've made no secret n here of my issues of self loathing. In short, my mother taught me to hate myself - my looks, my body, my personality, my idiosyncrasies... in fact, to this day, other than the fact try not to take any more than I need (from the world/other people/society), I cannot think of a single positive thing I could say about myself.

Now I've posted on here before because I've never been loved or cherished and, somehow, I only end up in relationships with men who don't even fancy me! I think they want to, they just don't.

I just don't get it. I mean I get that they don't fancy me, but what I don't get is that other people try and convince you that someone will. Or why other people's experiences are so different.

The bottom line is that, it doesn't matter how many times women say "men who like women like women" or "not all men like skinny women" both on here amd in rl, the message I consistently get from men is that I'm unattractive and not slim enough.

This message comes in the form of - losing interest after seeing me naked; constantly looking at/commenting on/becoming aroused by slimmer more attractive women when I don't have the same effect; actually commenting on the fact I'm not slim
or pretty enough.

I'm 5'3" and wear size 12/14 clothes so, no, I'm not slim. But I'm not 'huge' either.

Not really sure what I'm asking really. I suppose, why do people say that men aren't that bothered about skinny women and it's not all about looks (both of which I've believed in my 2.5yrs of being single) when the verbal and non verbal feedback I've had from all men is that they are. Is ita lie women tell themselves/each other just to feel better? Does anyone actually believe it?

There are only a couple of people irl who know how I feel, so I certainly don't go around being miserable and moany about this. I'm not going to reveal my weaknesses to everyone! Who/where are these men who don't expect a woman to look like a model?

*Can you not see you are seeking this stuff out? If you'd dropped him like a hot potato at the first sign of this, you wouldn't be stacking up a whole heap of 'evidence' now.

Why were you asking people what they thought of you so you got to hear about these 70 year olds- I very much doubt someone just told you what they said for the fun of it, more likely you were fishing around to hear what was being said and you got burned. If I asked my colleague if anyone ever said anything nasty about my looks or personality, the likely answer would be yes, that's why I don't ask.

As for those people who don't care about looks- looks do matter for initial attraction, but that's ok, because plenty of people are attracted to you and you do get dates. That is not actually the issue here. What is the issue is that you are using every tiny thing that ever happened to confirm this overall huge bias you have against your own looks (put there by your mum).*

Well-said, Napoleon.

That was meant to be in bold. Sigh.

I only asked because we were all in the pub, I went to the bar and when I got back these men were laughing. I asked what was so funny (had no reason to assume it was about me!) And they wouldn't tell me because I "wouldn't like it". I pressed one of the other people there and they told me afterwards. These men weren't invited to the pub with us again and, in fact, we started going to a different pub. But they still said it.

Basically they were laughing about me being fat. The worst thing is, I'd thought I looked really nice that night. I was a size 10/12 at the time. I'm curvy even when slim, so not straight up and down. I have boobs a waist and a bum/hips.

That's why it upset me. It was a rare occasion where thought I looked nice.

So where are all these men who are genuinely not looking for someone young, slim amd beautiful and are not looking for them for positive reasons?

Everywhere. Like I said earlier, if you look around you see average looking men with average looking women - that's the majority of the population.

The real question is why did you not bin this bf and your last after the first date?

I wouldn't have gone out with either of those men because they're both shallow tits. I've got a good self image but I might not be so chipper if I went out with a man who checked out younger women all the time and went on about them.

Why are you not filtering these men out?

Well I wouldn't say 'plenty'. I get asked out once or twice a year I suppose. I don't count married men who are looking for a fuck on the side.

Folkgirl I bet most women on here have had a mean comment said about their looks at one time or another. I can think of several directed at me over the years, not very nice, but in the scheme of things, they have no relevance to me or my current relationship. I once went on a date and the person was not only not interested in me, they asked me for my friend's number! I haven't concluded from that that I'm unloveable.

Not everyone will think you are a hot babe, that much is true, I'm not one either, but you don't need everyone to think you are, just find someone nice and straightforward who likes you, the whole of you. That is actually quite hard, I'm afraid, it took me a long time, but the wrong conclusion is to think that it is because of you and your looks. Honestly, you are so barking up the wrong tree here. Why are you not cross this guy you are with is a bit of a idiot? Why are you not angry that random guys make comments on women's looks and they think this is acceptable behaviour?

These ghastly old men were fat and balding, you said so yourself. They don't have a chance with you, so why do you care what they said?

They're just rude and obnoxious, and would probably do you and that's why they were even talking about you.

FWIW -

I'm a man and I can tell you that it's CATEGORICALLY NOT TRUE that all, or even most, men only like slim women. This is a myth put about by the modelling / beauty industry, that sadly seems to be believed more by women than by men themselves. I have absolutely zero sexual interest in skinny women and only even start reacting that way when there is a bit of roundedness, and I know plenty of guys the same way. I'm not even talking about those who are particularly attracted to enormously fat women (although they're out there too), but just to the larger end of normal womanliness.

The other factors too do with attractiveness I can't really comment on as they are too many and varied, intertwined with non-physical factors and we obviously can't know enough about how you come across physically from an internet post. But as regards weight/size itself - DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE!

Twinklestein because for the first couple of months, both men were clearly on their best behaviour. If I'd seen it that early on, I'd have dumped straightaway.

And this one in particular, well I'm surprised he's like this. I know people who know him irl from yrs ago. He comes with impeccable relationship references.

Which is why I'm assuming it's me.

I am cross.

But I'm also sad. I'm sad that I'm 40 and I've never been loved. I'm sad that no one cherishes me. I'm sad that it's always been this way and i'm sad that I can't see it changing.

But Jesus wants you for a sunbeam.

It's not you it's them.

Twinkle I 'care' what they said because the comments they made were the same as those my mother made and the same as those I tell myself. Which makes it harder to accept it when people on here say my mother was being unkind when other people are saying it too. That just confirms it.

OP you're 40 years old. I'm 44, my mother said very similar things and I don't give a bugger. It was years ago she was a bitch and very screwed up.
If some old men said something to me along the same lines I would think they were a bunch of old cretins.

This is why you so desperately need therapy to get over everything your mother said. She was jealous of your youth.

Wackadoodle is correct. Im a size 14 to 16 (down from a 28) and recently ive had compliments from men from 21 right up to 75. (im 42 this month)

I used to get really nasty comments in the street when i was bigger. It does annoy me that society bases the worth of women entirely around how they look and their fuckability. I am the same person as when i was bigger. Im just a bit more confident and thats the only difference.

I will NEVER tolerate a lover or a friend who thought i was second best.

FolkGirl maybe you symbolise what those old men can never have again and thats why they were being shits to you.

I think the comments that the two vile 70 year olds made are something most women experience at some point. I've had a group of men in the street loudly rate me as a 4 (they were all fat, bald and old, not exactly sex gods themselves), and had a man in a bar comment I had fat legs, I was about 7 stone at the time. It hurts and I don't understand the motivation behind it, but it seems to be something some men like to do, maybe because they know you would never look twice at them/inadequacy?
They are, basically, unpleasant dicks who enjoy being unpleasant and I wouldnt take their opinions seriously.
I think youve been unlucky with the last couple of boyfriends, I read your other thread and I think your current man is projecting his own feelings of inadequacy onto you.
I don't think your weight puts men off, listening to the guys at work talk about women, they seem to prefer size 12 type figures. Thats a nice, normal size, not fat.I always think women are harder on themselves/other women body wise, where men seem more forgiving of so called flaws.

I don't know. I do appreciate every one trying. There isn't anything anyone can say that will make any difference though. I know that really.

I don't have the money or emotional energy to sort this out.

I need to just accept that and stop. Stop trying, stop hoping... I need to be on my own and stick with that.

I think I keep hoping someone will say something and everything will just fall into place. Or at least someone will tell me I'm right and then I can stop tormenting myself.

Bit thanks anyway.

I think I keep hoping someone will say something and everything will just fall into place

That could happen with therapy. But not if you don't prioritise it. I think it would be worth making sacrifices to save up money to get therapy. It could change your life.

I'm sure you could find free group therapy in your area too if you look.

It's never the answer in life to stop trying and stop hoping - that's basically death.

I think in every thread that I've seen you post on Mumsnet, you mention that you bake homemade cakes Folkgirl and making cakes is always a good thing.

Top priority love yourself first !

Do little daily things & plan longer term things that make you happy

Spent time on your own

At some point in the future you will "radiate positive energy/glow" and you will attract the right kind of person - this is not always the first person that you will meet in the future

People are not all about what they look like !
People are all about their whole personality, how they live their life, how they treat other people etc

You cannot change the past, but you can plan for the future

But I was often criticised for fundamental things I couldn't change like my body shape (waist too small), foot size (too small), neck length (too long)

But these are desirable traits. You're describing a ballerina, or somebody like Audrey Hepburn, or Natalie Portman...

I get told I have a long neck and it is meant, and I take it, as a compliment!

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Your mother might not have found the above appealing - and she may also have been lacking enough as a human such that she actually told you this (and this is her failure, her shortcoming, her internal unhappiness and dissatisfaction, her total inability to be a decent mother and nurturer) - but plenty of other people do.

Folkgirl, you need to talk to a professional who has experience with Body Dysmorphic Disorder.

You need help and you need to make it a priority. Your thinking is obsessive and disordered. Would you keep walking on a broken leg, because you can't find time or money to get it sorted? I assume not.

This is a health issue...a mental health issue. No amount of rumination or talking with friends or posting online can fix a broken leg. It's not going to help here either.

FolkGirl
Just wanted to respond because I have always felt exactly like you, your thought patterns totally resonate with me. Not so much about weight, just about feeling "ugly" -- I've felt that all my life, though I know objectively that its not true. In my head I'm the most "ugly" person in the world and its as if I have a huge red arrow pointing down towards me from on high saying "ugly inside and ugly outside".

I've felt like this since I was about 15. I sabotage relationships because of it and I struggle with this all the time (I never really get away from it). But what others are saying is right. It's your projection and your filters, not the outside world.

You do need to get help with this -- you will never be able to move beyond this if you don't change the thought patterns.

There will always be arseholes who make stupid remarks in the pub etc. And yes a few people are judgemental about weight. But inner confidence completely short-circuits this every time.

When I was at my most confident ever I was well over a size 14, not wearing make-up at all, making zero effort with my appearance and had three men fighting over me. Because, for reasons which were outside of that, I felt like a million dollars.

Its all all about confidence.

I think CBT would be a good short-term approach but you think think about longer-term therapy if you can afford it as well.

He just wasn't the right guy.
I once had a guy tell me "my boobs felt like nothing".
And whilst they are quite small, I decided this wasn't good enough and I would find someone else who thought my boobs were perfect just as they were.
And I did
Don't lose hope, there is someone out there who will think you're gorgeous 'as is' too.

Thanks all. I'm going to make a dr's appt today.

I'm just really embarrassed. I've been referred for counselling before. Many times.

I need to try and make time to meet the man I've been seeing this week and end it.

In my head it's over anyway. I just need to tell him.