Men, attraction, relationships and sex

[FolkGirl]

I started a thread a couple of weeks ago because I was considering ending things with my bf because, ultimately I am not enough for him. I'm not young enough, or slim enough or pretty enough.

I haven't ended yet because haven't had chance. I want to do it in person and I want to tell him why.

I'm ok with it now, but the reasons have been playing on my mind.

I've made no secret n here of my issues of self loathing. In short, my mother taught me to hate myself - my looks, my body, my personality, my idiosyncrasies... in fact, to this day, other than the fact try not to take any more than I need (from the world/other people/society), I cannot think of a single positive thing I could say about myself.

Now I've posted on here before because I've never been loved or cherished and, somehow, I only end up in relationships with men who don't even fancy me! I think they want to, they just don't.

I just don't get it. I mean I get that they don't fancy me, but what I don't get is that other people try and convince you that someone will. Or why other people's experiences are so different.

The bottom line is that, it doesn't matter how many times women say "men who like women like women" or "not all men like skinny women" both on here amd in rl, the message I consistently get from men is that I'm unattractive and not slim enough.

This message comes in the form of - losing interest after seeing me naked; constantly looking at/commenting on/becoming aroused by slimmer more attractive women when I don't have the same effect; actually commenting on the fact I'm not slim
or pretty enough.

I'm 5'3" and wear size 12/14 clothes so, no, I'm not slim. But I'm not 'huge' either.

Not really sure what I'm asking really. I suppose, why do people say that men aren't that bothered about skinny women and it's not all about looks (both of which I've believed in my 2.5yrs of being single) when the verbal and non verbal feedback I've had from all men is that they are. Is ita lie women tell themselves/each other just to feel better? Does anyone actually believe it?

There are only a couple of people irl who know how I feel, so I certainly don't go around being miserable and moany about this. I'm not going to reveal my weaknesses to everyone! Who/where are these men who don't expect a woman to look like a model?

I haven't read the whole thread but I do think there are a lot of people here are giving advice that is a bit disingenuous.

I think the majority of men would prefer to be with a slim partner (size 10 or less). I also think the majority of men would prefer to be with a younger partner (under 40) because younger women are seen as more attractive.

There are minorities of men who prefer larger and older women, but they are few and far between. Obviously men get into relationships with women for all kinds of reasons and not just for sex so personal appearance because can be less important for some men.

Knowing this about men should make you feel less self-conscious and self-loathing. It's not your fault men are the way they are. I don't think it's your problem at all but, you just need to become less caring about what men want and worry less what they think of you.

I've looked over some previous threads, because I had a vague memory that your exH was a bit of an arsehole. Reading back it turns out that he was emotionally abusive and convinced you that you weren't good enough as a woman, mother etc.

I can see, given your mother's treatment of you, how you ended up with a husband who echoed everything she'd ever said. I understand that you believe your husband's criticisms, but that truth is what he said is actually standard script from emotional abusers, it's very common, it's not particular to you, it's simply a strategy to retain power and control in the relationship.

So you have been conditioned by two EA people, and everything you think now about yourself is a result of that abuse. It's akin to brainwashing.

This needs more than a bit of CBT. You need to ring Women's Aid and ask for recommendations of therapists who specialise in abuse in your area. You really need someone experienced in abuse. It would really be worth making little sacrifices financially to get the money together to do this.

I would also suggest the Freedom Programme which you can look up online.

Take some time out from guys for the moment, you need to look after yourself and work through these issues.

happybubblebrain i think you are doing men a disservice. The only men ive encountered like that are the type who would yell out nasty comments on a night out.

Ive never encountered one in a relationship. Sorry but it is not "most men" And if any men are reading this i suspect a few of them would be quite insulted.

I agree - I've been an 8-10 most of my life and now I've put on another half a stone and got to a 12 I've had 3 men I've known for ages saying it really suits me. These aren't the kind of men who give compliments and I wasn't fishing at all. I'm also over 30 and am actually glad the cat calling has died down a bit (only get them if out without dd now!) and men of any substance are much better at realising that what is inside that counts once they pass 25/30 IME!

Happy, this thread is not about men, it's about the OP's poor self esteem. Of course some men are shallow, but they aren't men you want to date anyway. Feeding into myths about "most men" being shallow or preferring X, Y or Z is totally unhelpful.

One step at a time OP. Something simple that I found after EA (also had a similar sounding mum) was to try to walk with my head up, looking straight ahead. I used to always walk looking at my feet and never catch anyone's eye. It was very hard to do, but once you get into the hang of it (maybe focus on the road directly outside your house to start and go longer each time) you will be amazed at how many people actually just want to smile at you, and how easy it becomes to smile back. Most people aren't looking at you under a microscope like you do, and they see a normal person just walking along. That is where I would start, anyway. Hope you get to see someone for some CBT soon as they can give you more tips and sort out the underlying issues better.

*I think the majority of men would prefer to be with a slim partner (size 10 or less). I also think the majority of men would prefer to be with a younger partner (under 40) because younger women are seen as more attractive.

There are minorities of men who prefer larger and older women, but they are few and far between. Obviously men get into relationships with women for all kinds of reasons and not just for sex so personal appearance because can be less important for some men.*

bubblebrain is definitely the right name for you. You sound like you've swallowed some surrendered wife script, unless you're a bloke and it's just fantasy.

Back in the real world, 67% of UK men are overweight or obese, and 57% of UK women.

Your mum properly fucked you up if you believed this:

"But I was often criticised for fundamental things I couldn't change like my body shape (waist too small), foot size (too small), neck length (too long)"

I don't think any woman in the history of forever has ever wished she had a bigger waist, bigger feet or a shorter stubbier neck (and I speak as a size 16 with size 7 feet!) Your mother was jealous of you and has put you down to make herself feel better.

I know we can't tell from some measurements on here, but at size 12-14 you are very average, if not below average sized. I'm sure you're also much better looking than you think you are.

When you say that these men would rather be with someone younger, slimmer and prettier, are they actually saying this or is it the message you are receiving from their behaviour? A couple of drunk old men in the pub don't count BTW, what about your actual relationships? Have they voiced their dissatisfaction with your looks or is this something you've 'figured out' from their behaviour?

YY Twinklestein I think happybubblebrain has projected her own issues onto this thread which is not helpful to the OP

If this is all based on the fact that men notice attractive women, I was in the car with DP the other day when he turned to look at a tall slim woman we drove past. I was about to feel miffed when I realised I had also noticed her, and turned to look. It was an empty street, she was the only person walking along and she stood out.

It didn't mean he wanted to fuck her, neither did I. It was just idle curiosity.

I have come to this point after massive jealousy and insecurity because he makes me feel beautiful and attractive, even as a size 16. His ex was a Barbie doll lookalike, but I know that he finds me very sexy and attractive and don't care what she looked like, or what any other woman in the vicinity looks like, because my value lies in who I am as well as instead of how I look. That's what you need to find x

Yes I think there is a difference between saying most men notice attractive women and all men prefer younger, slimmer women. What one finds attractive another wouldn't. I don't think its shallow necessarily to have one's attention drawn to something attractive. I like Freud's paintings and looking at beautifully crafted pieces of late C17th furniture, and I like pretty faces and men with interesting faces, and classic cars... I look, but it doesn't mean that I would trade in love laughter, many years of support, devotion and kindness for either the use of an AC cobra for a drive or a man with an interesting face for a fuck. I'm a woman but I suspect that most men think much the same.

I have been with DP for 16 years. He is loyal, loves me to bits (drives me mad) but he loves red hair, mine is nearly black. It is not red. He looks and of course in 43 years must have had opportunities to run off with a woman of red hair, assuming he isn't some troll that only repels women with red hair. Of course he hasn't, because hair colour alone doesn't make someone love someone. Men like women are not so shallow as to think that a night with their fantasy will leave them sated for life. They know that friendship, respect, laughs, support, true grit, shared goals,...these are the things that make men and women stay, not looks.

We all look at beautiful things, whether they be people of the same sex, the opposite sex, paintings, beautifully crafted engineering or buildings, we just do. We often enthuse about these things with those people close to us. We might even occasionally close our eyes and imagine that the person touching us is someone else, or that the waiter might look great without his kit, or that life would be better with a different person. Few actually really follow this fantasy because most realise objectively that its just that, its not real. Heaven forbid the fantasy become real, it mostly disappoints. And that is the weird logic of this, we seek in fantasy often the opposite of that which we have, in reality we seek the opposite of that which we most fantasise about. Look at the weirdness that stems from wishing an eternal life (Dorian Gray) or the weirdness of perfecting animals (The Island of Doctor Moreau). Philosophers have tried since the year dot to establish what beauty and perfection is, but it cannot be measured or established as a category of fact. It is subjective.

So, if tomorrow you happen to meet the most wonderful man who tells you that he thinks you are beautiful, I am afraid you have to just accept that. He can't help what he sees, its subjective. What you do need to work on though is how you see yourself.

Happy while that may be YOUR experience of men it certainly isn't mine so you can't generalise and say men prefer slim women. As I said in another post on here my own experience is that men found me more attractive when I was 3/4 sizes (and stones) bigger than I am now. I've seen and heard it from males friends too so those men are not in any minority and that's really unhelpful to OP.

Once again, thanks and I have read every msg.

Mini, see I would struggle with that. The man I've been seen seeing also likes red hair. I feel really insecure about it. My hair is red, but I always felt it wasn't red enough. i couldn't be with someone if I was that incongruous with their preference.

And he did tell me I was beautiful. As did the guy I was seeing before. I'm sure my husband did at some point! It means nothing. The shared interests, the shared sense of humour, the shared social attitude, shared political leanings, god there were so many things where we just clicked! And whilst I didn't read anything into it, because I never do, it felt like I'd met the male version of me and it was nice.

And yet it still wasn't enough.

And it isn't even about him. It's always the same regardless of who it is.

I also completely struggle with the idea of someone being with me and fantasising about being with someone else. If they feel the need to do that, I'd rather they just ended it.

The idea that young slim and beautiful is a non threatening, unobtainable ideal just sits real badly with me. Because those women do exist. They're not a fantasy, they're reality. And I'm just a very poor substitute.

In terms of my self esteem, yes, it's shit! But I also struggle raising it because I do all the things I'm 'supposed to' and they just haven't worked. They might work in the short term, but have no lasting impact.

I push myself outside my comfort zone and challenge myself. I've sung solo on stage, I get my hair cut and coloured professionally (instead of doing it myself!), I do charity work, I have hobbies, I have a professional career, I read and craft, I have friends (not loads, but a handful of good ones).

But I want someone who fancies me and who finds me attractive who would choose me over anyone else, who misses me and thinks about me when I'm not there and isn't constantly on the lookout for someone better.

I want someone who doesn't think they can do any better than me, without thinking I'm the best they could do. Iykwim.

Young, slim women exist but they have their own bfs and their own lives, they're not interested in middle-aged men.

I think you need to get to grips with just how badly damaged you have been by your mother and your EA ex. That these thought patterns of yours are the product of years of abuse. Until you address that, your mind is just going round and round in circles of disordered thinking.

You can share your worries here, but nobody here can actually help you beyond basic support.

I was going to say - hobbies, charity work, hairdos, career - all of this is great things to be doing and productive - but it's external. And what you need to work on is internal.

^these are not this is

I am a woman. Try and get past my name choice.

When I was younger and slimmer, but far more insecure and unhappy with myself I attracted men in droves.

Now I'm older, wiser, fatter but far more confident and a nicer person men never ever ask me out. Never ever. Which isn't a problem for me at all (in fact I prefer it), just an observation.

I know quite a few women are completely lovely but because they are above a size 14 men do not want to know and they've stayed single for years. I also know some slim women who don't seem to have much more going for them that are inundated with offers.

It's a lie to pretend that most men are looking for personality. I've heard it all before - men are nice really bullshit. Most men aren't that nice. And if that offends the shallow men then they should stop being shallow.

OP - I'd stop investing emotion in what men want. If you truly want to be happy enjoy being single, build up your self-esteem and vow never to be around men that make you feel any less than wonderful.

Oh who gives a bugger what most men want.
The one who wants you, will want you. Not because you tick the box marked size 10 on some imaginary list.

They told you that you are beautiful because that is what they see. It might not be what you see, or what you think everyone else must see, but the fact is that they told you that.

When I look at a battered up old chest of drawers and exclaim "wow that's stunning" you might see it as I have just described it. What I might see is a stunning William and Mary chest with walnut veneers. Its a little like decorating, do we all have white walls and wooden floors? No, but a friend of mine is gushing over his beautiful original floorboards whilst I am padding barefoot over a thick American carpet that leaves footprints, like walking in sand, that to me is beautiful, he can keep his cold floorboards!

Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.

When you chose names for your children, did you ever get that moment when someone suggested a name and you thought...oh no I hate that name? I know I did, it was because "Scott" was an awful bully, was brash and loud, and I just didn't like him. Of course there is nothing wrong with either the name or every man called Scott. I made an objective decision based upon a purely subjective and non rational feeling.

We do this all the time. Another example is how we make moral judgments, we "know" something to be wrong because this has been passed to us but we internalise this as a subjective "feeling" that something is wrong, we then externalise it again as an objective "fact." This process is circular and simply restates a non objective fact. Its wrong to murder because its wrong to murder...circular reasoning restates the premise as the conclusion

What you are doing is this

A)my mother said I was ugly, I therefore must be ugly, I shall tell myself I am ugly.
(she has voiced a fact, I must internalise its truth, I must externalise its truth as an objective fact).

And you are doing this:

C)he tells me I am beautiful, that is his opinion, his is not a true statement or objective fact.

When logic would dictate that if statement A is correct and creates truth, then statement C) should read

He tells me I am beautiful, therefore I must be beautiful, I shall tell myself I am beautiful.
(he has voiced a fact, I must internalise its truth, I must externalise its truth as an objective fact).

Because both your mother's opinion and his opinion are just that, opinion, but why is her's accepted as truth whilst his is not? Its illogical :)

Oh, well I do wear red wigs sometimes, I have very dark hair but it has red in it in sunlight...he can make do...I'm fab anyway ;) and you are too, you just need to believe it.

It's a lie to pretend that most men are looking for personality. I've heard it all before - men are nice really bullshit. Most men aren't that nice.

Jesus you need to improve the men you hang out with.

Brilliant posts Mini.

Bloody hell Mini we have the same colour hair.