Men, attraction, relationships and sex

[FolkGirl]

I started a thread a couple of weeks ago because I was considering ending things with my bf because, ultimately I am not enough for him. I'm not young enough, or slim enough or pretty enough.

I haven't ended yet because haven't had chance. I want to do it in person and I want to tell him why.

I'm ok with it now, but the reasons have been playing on my mind.

I've made no secret n here of my issues of self loathing. In short, my mother taught me to hate myself - my looks, my body, my personality, my idiosyncrasies... in fact, to this day, other than the fact try not to take any more than I need (from the world/other people/society), I cannot think of a single positive thing I could say about myself.

Now I've posted on here before because I've never been loved or cherished and, somehow, I only end up in relationships with men who don't even fancy me! I think they want to, they just don't.

I just don't get it. I mean I get that they don't fancy me, but what I don't get is that other people try and convince you that someone will. Or why other people's experiences are so different.

The bottom line is that, it doesn't matter how many times women say "men who like women like women" or "not all men like skinny women" both on here amd in rl, the message I consistently get from men is that I'm unattractive and not slim enough.

This message comes in the form of - losing interest after seeing me naked; constantly looking at/commenting on/becoming aroused by slimmer more attractive women when I don't have the same effect; actually commenting on the fact I'm not slim
or pretty enough.

I'm 5'3" and wear size 12/14 clothes so, no, I'm not slim. But I'm not 'huge' either.

Not really sure what I'm asking really. I suppose, why do people say that men aren't that bothered about skinny women and it's not all about looks (both of which I've believed in my 2.5yrs of being single) when the verbal and non verbal feedback I've had from all men is that they are. Is ita lie women tell themselves/each other just to feel better? Does anyone actually believe it?

There are only a couple of people irl who know how I feel, so I certainly don't go around being miserable and moany about this. I'm not going to reveal my weaknesses to everyone! Who/where are these men who don't expect a woman to look like a model?

You could get your 12 CBT sessions on the NHS. And you might be able to find a free support group in your area.

Yes, your friends are supposed to say (and believe) nice things about you - because they care about you. It's the same reason people you might have a relationship with are supposed to say nice things about you!

"I've been told that they don't notice or give a thought to the things that we stress/obsess about, such as cellulite, stretchmarks etc.. "

This is my main reason for hating the trend for deep fake tans; it wallpapers over the cracks and I quite like the cracks (no innuendo here). Nobody is perfect and I prefer to see women blushing (not possible with orange tan), freckles, blemishes and scars; the lot.

FolkGirl - Unless and until you can love and accept yourself, then you will find that you choose partners who reflect your lack of self-love and self-acceptance. It is that simple, and that hard, and it asks you to get therapy or counselling. There is no quick fix; there's little point in blaming your mother any more; and it feels like a make or break moment for you. Really - it is all in your hands.

Very attractive people want their partner to see beyond the surface level and love them for who they are anyway. I agree with gatewalker
I think you need someone to say look what your mother said was untrue and unkind. It was. You're bringing that anger about her unreasonableness and projecting it into your relationships. You can get help and move on into a healthier life where you realise you're loveable just as you are.

I've tried getting cbt before. I don't meet the criteria.

The thing is, none of these men are attracted to me initially because I seem vulnerable. Because I don't come across like that. Although it doesn't happen often.

I have a professional job, hobbies with a creative outlet and a good social life, I volunteer with a charity...

I'm socially capable - no where near a life and soul person, but able to hold my own.

This most recent bf, I thought I'd finally met someone who really liked me. Except that the little things that reinforce the lack of physical attraction start to leak out. The constantly staring at other women, the drying up of compliments, the little comments that betray his real feelings...

hold see, I think what she said was unkind, and I might not focus on it all so much had she not said it first, but it's not untrue. I have photos and mirrors. It is a fact that I am not as attractive as she was at similar ages and she was embarrassed because she expected to have a more attractive child than she did.

gate I know everything you have said is right. Especially the make or break stuff.

I typed a huge post out and lost it and I'm on my phone so it's not easy, but thanks for the replies. I have read them all.

I just don't see how, if someone isn't attracted to you physically, it could ever work.

I just feel I'm stuck. All I want is for someone to love me. Just one person who thinks I'm amazing just the way I am to love me and cherish me. Just one. Once.

But I feel like I'm asking for the moon on a stick.

I've tried getting cbt before. I don't meet the criteria

I think if you told the GP that you're depressed because your self esteem is so low that you can't forge a relationship, that should get you some.

CBT won't work for this, FolkGirl. It's great for acute trauma, but not chronic, deep-seated, historic trauma.

Therapy or counselling are really the only way; and they ask commitment of you.

Much like the commitment you're wanting from your partners, actually. And that is not a coincidence.

It's the old cliché OP - if you want someone to love you, you have to love yourself first.

At the moment, even if someone did love you, I think your insecurities might nuke the relationship anyway.

I hope you haven't been reading all that weird redpill crap online, which is probably what comes up if you google it so you provably have. Made me want to kill myself until I realised they're basically all insane and just hate women who won't sleep with them

We tend to end up with a partner who is a similar level of attractiveness as ourselves. Is that the case for you op?

I know lots of couples who are not conventionally attractive or have both put on a lot of weight over the years but they match each other well and and are still attracted to each other. You only have to see couples shopping together around asda to see there is someone for everyone.

Most of us are pretty average. I can't see why you would be different from everybody else op. There must be more to it.

idokidok no, no idea what that is. I don't need to read shit online. I hear enough irl.

gate I just can't really afford proper therapy and the counselling I had before wasn't really 'enough'. I think the counsellor felt a bit out of her depth. The thing is, I struggle with the idea of challenging what I'm thinking because I don't fundamentally think I'm wrong. I suppose I just feel a little sad that it's the case.

Twinklestein you're right

cancook I don't know. I don't really have a physical type. They all look very different. I don't know if they're similar levels of attractiveness to each other or myself.

I think the man I'm currently seeing is probably similar in levels of attractiveness to myself. I'd have thought. But he'd rather be with someone younger, slimmer and prettier.

The guy I was seeing before - I don't know, he was good looking when he was younger, I thought he was attractive, but probably not everyone's cup of tea. I was punching above my weight with him really . But he was the one who'd lowered his standards to be with someone who was less likely to stray. His exes had all been very beautiful!

FolkGirl - We can love ourselves and not be a particularly nice/attractive/personable/vivacious person. That's not the point. It's not about trying to be something different; it's about accepting who we are, warts, sparkles and all. Carl Jung said this of the journey of self-acceptance: "I would rather be whole than good." It's the whole that's important, not the qualities that make up that whole. It is the acceptance of who you are, not what those components happen to be.

If you can't afford therapy, then try reading "The Drama of the Gifted Child" by Alice Miller. Don't be taken in by the title; it'll be for you, I am almost certain.

In fact, here's a PDF version here.

I wouldn't go out with someone who wanted to be with a younger woman, nor with someone who wanted a woman unlikely to stray...

It may be that the problem is the quality of the men you're choosing rather than anything wrong with you.

You mentioned someone going out with you because he thinks you are not pretty enough to cheat?
Wouldn't you be doing the same by going out with someone 'lesser' because he can't do better?

I don't think anyone on here will change your mind.
But can you search the internet and find posts from men complaining about their penis size. I don't mean to be rude but you'll realise how ridiculous you sound.
Like penis size, looks are not the be all end all.
Just like what I've said to a man on a different forum, if she wants to shag you then you stuff is fine. There will always be someone bigger.
Same to you Folk, if he wants to shag you then your stuff is fine.
There is always someone prettier, just thank your lucky stars you are not the ugliest.

The thing is, nothing any of us can say on here will change how you feel about yourself. Lots of great points were made in the last thread, lots of great points are being made again, but none of it is touching the sides of why you feel so negative about your looks.

I honestly think if you can prioritise time for dating this (complete loser) guy you can prioritise time for counselling. Getting your head sorted over this is waaaay more important than dating for you, as all your dating is doing is falling into the same grooves - you haven't even left the guy who is checking out other women openly on a date.

If that happened to me, I'd think what a loser, he's just a player, and move on. I've noticed that even when I receive bad feedback on my appearance (e.g. man making horrible comment to his mate, overheard conversation, these things happen in pretty much everyone's life) it doesn't make me feel bad any more. I just think- oh well, I'm not everyone's cup of tea but I have enough people that do fancy me so that's ok.

I did used to feel very down on my looks, so I do sympathise a lot, but I think it's got to the stage where simply reading how it's not all about looks isn't going to work, you need to really let out some of this crap that's holding you back- and making you see what you want to see.

There is no-one in this world who is too bad looking to have a relationship, go into the local supermarket if you don't believe that, so if you are not having a relationship, it can't be because of that, sorry. It's more likely to be that it's hard to find nice normal people in online dating than it is anything about you.

Sorry, that sounded bad about people who online date! What I meant was, as I've said before, I think OD can encourage a kid in a sweet shop mentality in which men in particular are always looking for the next date, the next experience rather than thinking themselves lucky to be with the person they are with. I've really noticed my nice normal female friends having a lot of difficulty finding guys through OD and they seemed to get messed around more than normal, I expect your experiences are par for the course rather than particularly about you and your 'looks'.

arsenal yes, you're right. That would make me just as bad. But then I wouldn't go out with someone because I thought no one else would want them and they wouldn't stray.

And I'd like to believe you that looks aren't the be all and end all. But this is the 'feedback' I'm getting. So where are all these men who are genuinely not looking for someone young, slim amd beautiful and are not looking for them for positive reasons? Because I don't know any of them. And even when I assume I've found one (because they seem interested in me) it doesn't take long for the truth to come out.

napoleon you're right. It's having no impact whatsoever

I haven't ended it because I haven't seen him yet/spoken to him properly. I want to tell him in person. I've met some of his friends and family and I know he's told them he thinks we're really good together.

Folkgirl- here's an example of where you are seeking negative feedback that fits your preconceptions about your looks- you are staying with a guy who is quite shallow and checks out other women. All men don't do this- if I was with a guy on a date and I saw him openly doing this, that would be the last date. I'm just not interested in men who do that, only ones that make me special. But, despite knowing this about him, and everyone telling you this wasn't ok, you are still with him- still beating yourself up about his problem, presumably still going on dates with him where you get to confirm he indeed does check out other women.

Can you not see you are seeking this stuff out? If you'd dropped him like a hot potato at the first sign of this, you wouldn't be stacking up a whole heap of 'evidence' now.

Why were you asking people what they thought of you so you got to hear about these 70 year olds- I very much doubt someone just told you what they said for the fun of it, more likely you were fishing around to hear what was being said and you got burned. If I asked my colleague if anyone ever said anything nasty about my looks or personality, the likely answer would be yes, that's why I don't ask.

As for those people who don't care about looks- looks do matter for initial attraction, but that's ok, because plenty of people are attracted to you and you do get dates. That is not actually the issue here. What is the issue is that you are using every tiny thing that ever happened to confirm this overall huge bias you have against your own looks (put there by your mum).

You sound a lovely person, however, about this you are not rational. Which is why you need to get some counselling, because nothing any of us say is going in and being absorbed, you are batting away all the 'good' evidence we are providing that you are actually a reasonably ok looking person and that most men aren't complete twits and checking out other girls on dates, and homing in on all the 'bad' evidence that you are indeed awful looking and that this determines all relationships.

Crossed posts- see, even though I know it's having no impact, I'm still trying!

That's because you come over like a lovely person, with a huge irrational blind spot, and I really don't think it can be solved by chatting it through on here.

Dating world is a hard world anyway, my poor friend who did OD cried many a night on the phone to me and in the end I told her to stop dating because it just seemed to magnify all your insecurities, it wasn't pleasant and fun for her as it seems for some people.

It doesn't really matter what this guy had told other people, you just don't want to live your life with him looking over your shoulder at the waitress.

I think you need to stop dating completely until you have resolved your issues around your self-image.

The books recommended earlier are a good place to start. I would also look around and get an idea of counsellors in your area who have a good understanding of body image issues. You will probably want to email or phone several. Some of them may offer sliding scale fees depending on your wages. Find someone who's willing to do perhaps a monthly session face to face, with homework for you in between, to keep costs down.

You need to address this issue that lies within yourself rather than obsessing over "I'm ugly, so I need a man who likes ugly women, where are they all hanging out?"

FWIW I was a size 18 when I met my H and we had a LOT of sex. I never doubted his desire for me. I was a size 20 when I met my last ex and went up and down a bit, but his dick was still as hard for me from the first day to the last (until he tripped over and it fell into another woman, apparently, but there we go.) I have also had a lot of quickies along the way with other guys. No not all guys like them as big as I am, however I think my self-confidence in my body overcomes a lot of that. If I was a size 14 but wanted to do it in the dark, kept trying to hide bits of my body or only go in positions where I wouldn't be jiggling, I wouldn't expect many repeat callers.