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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

What would you do if the father of your child would not marry you?

249 replies

AvocadoLime · 21/04/2015 21:04

NCed for this because people I know use MN.

DP and I have been together for 5 years, living together for 4. We rent a house, and have a seven month old son together. DS was a surprise pregnancy after a contraceptive failure, but very much loved and wanted.

I'll be upfront here, I really want to get married. My reasons are:

-I want financial protection for DS and myself. DP is carrying on in his career, I did not have a career established when DS was born, just a degree (I am younger than him) and I am currently doing a course to become a childminder when my MA runs out so that I can work and be with DS (makes sense for childcare reasons, and I want to be at home with him if I can). His earnings will likely be much higher than mine in, say, 5 years time because I will be taking responsibility for most of DS's care. I know people say that it is not romantic to marry for financial reasons, but I have DS to look out for now as well as myself so I feel I need to be pragmatic for his sake.

-There is a chance that DP could get a job outside of the EU one day because of the type of work he does. What then? We may have to live on different continents. He seems to avoid talking about this scenario ("well, we'll talk about that if it ever happens").

-Other areas of legal recognition, if one of us gets sick or dies. We would not be the others next of kin in hospital, we would not be in charge of each other's funeral arrangements and we would not be able to leave things to each other without getting hit by inheritance tax like a married couple.

-I want social recognition that we are a family, both for myself and DS. Currently DS has my last name, I would like us to all have the same name. I don't know what I'll tell DS when he's older about why his parents aren't married like everyone else's, and I certainly don't want him to worry about family stability if it can be avoided. I know that it works for some families who stay unmarried and I'm not trying to be disrespectful towards them, because my issue here most likely comes from the fact that I feel really quite humiliated that the man whose child I have carried and have lived together in a relationship for years does not want to marry me.

-Sentimental reasons. I always imagined that I would get married, and I want to on a deep level. It doesn't have to be a big wedding, we could elope abroad or whatever I'm not bothered, but I feel like it's something I would really regret on my deathbed if I never got married. Like I said above, I feel humiliated that he won't marry me. I really hate saying "my boyfriend", or "my partner". It feels like our relationship is not serious. I even avoid saying "DP" where I can when I am on Mumsnet! I know that sounds a bit silly, but I just feel a huge gut dislike of it and I can't help it.

-A nagging concern I have that the main reason he does not want to get married is to keep me disposable. He refutes this, but one of his reasons for not wanting to get married is that getting divorced is so long and ugly so I feel that this is a reason, he just does not like it being worded back to him so obviously.

(Am I missing any other important reasons? Genuine question).

Although he has made intermittent noises that he is considering it, he does not really want to get married. His reasons are:

-He has bad experiences of marriage. His parents went through a very nasty divorce when he was 10, he was manipulated by one parent into making claims about the other and he was left quite scarred by the experience. He also got married himself in his 20s and got divorced 7 years later. He says that the relationship went downhill straight away after getting married, although they had never lived together before getting married so I don't think that getting married was the only issue there. I try to be as sympathetic towards his past as I can but I also feel uncomfortable that he has lumped me and his ex into one category and assumes it would be the same with me.

-On a, well, philosophical level, I suppose, he says he does not like the concept of a marriage contract. He says that if you love each other then you should not have to have your relationship 'written into law', like you are commodities that belong to one another. He says it would be against his principals to get married.

-Divorce is long and ugly.

-He says he is happy with our relationship the way it is, and he thinks that if we got married we may become complacent toward trying to maintain it.

-He says he would be far less happy being married than I would be to not be married, though I don't see how he could quantify that quite so easily, especially since I tend to bury my negative feelings a lot and have a breezy exterior, whereas he is not like that at all.

(I have noticed on threads like this people always ask if it is the actual wedding ceremony he objects to - this is not DP's issue, he is concerned with being married, not getting married).

Anyway, we have hit upon a stalemate, basically. I don't really know what to do or how to feel about this. Sometimes I feel really quite resentful about him not wanting to get married and suspicious of his motives, and I consider whether or not our relationship has a future. On the other hand, we do have a good relationship (well, apart from this aspect of it which makes me quite unhappy IYSWIM), and I would want our DS to grow up in a two-parent household if possible, I would feel terribly guilty I think for taking that away from him unless there were any major relationship problems like abuse or cheating. Can I have some thoughts? What would you do in this situation? I probably just need to talk through my feelings as much as anything.

I wish there was something I could say to change his mind (suggestions?) but it's probably unlikely if I'm realistic.

Please don't have a go at me, I'm feeling a bit sad about all of this.

OP posts:
AvocadoLime · 21/04/2015 21:04

Wow, I think that is the longest post I have ever written! Well done if you get through it all.

OP posts:
VanitasVanitatum · 21/04/2015 21:12

Oh gosh. I don't think I would ever completely trust his reasons for this, not because they aren't valid, I would just always feel that nagging idea that if he really loved me these reasons would really not stop him.

The legal protections are really very important for you and your son. I don't know how you could change his mind, or frankly whether you should even try; maybe you can persuade him but is that how you really want it to be?

pocketsaviour · 21/04/2015 21:14

He says he is happy with our relationship the way it is, and he thinks that if we got married we may become complacent toward trying to maintain it.

Does this actually mean "currently you're trying really hard to persuade me to marry you and if I do I reckon you'll stop washing my pants"?

TBH I don't have much advice, but I can see that the situation sucks for you. He seems absolutely determined in his views. His experience of marriage has been that they are all destined to fail sooner or later, and his experience of divorce has been awful. (It must have been really painful for him as a child to have been manipulated in his parents' divorce. So cruel of them.)

Would it be possible for you to see a solicitor and see if there are any agreements or contracts which the two of you could make in order to protect your legal rights in the event of illness or death and sort out what would happen to your DS, etc? You don't currently own property in common so that's not an issue (just make sure if you ever do buy that you're joint owners.)

If he won't even agree to do that, then I would be concerned that he doesn't see the relationship as having a long future :(

I do think if you stay with him you're accepting that you won't marry at all. So if marriage is important to you, you need to decide if it's more important than staying together.

Not an easy situation Flowers

AvocadoLime · 21/04/2015 21:16

Thanks for your response.

As to whether I would want to persuade him, I guess I have already given up on the idea that it would ever be anything else. Like I said, I feel like I have to be pragmatic about this at this stage and I just want to get protection and stability for me and DS.

OP posts:
Viviennemary · 21/04/2015 21:22

I would hate this. I am very much in favour of marriage. But it isn't a guarantee that a partner won't leave. But it's certainly a more stable and permanent base to bring up children. And married couples are more likely to stay together. That's the statistics. Certainly don't consider any more children for the forseeable future. I don't know whether you can change his mind.

It's tempting to give an ultimatum but I don't think that would be the best thing in your case. You could be honest and say you feel insecure and want to be married and don't know how long you can live with this insecurity. That might appeal to him. I don't think this 'bad experience' excuse is a very valid one I'm afraid. Though he probably thinks it is. I agree that the legal protection is essential for your and your child. I'd also be a bit suspicious of this living on separate continents. Does he mean that's a possiblity in future. That would be a bit of a red flag to me.

AvocadoLime · 21/04/2015 21:23

Does this actually mean "currently you're trying really hard to persuade me to marry you and if I do I reckon you'll stop washing my pants"?

Ha, the thought had crossed my mind, in one of my more skeptical moments. I'm sure he would deny it though and say that he meant that we would not try as much to have fun together and be spontaneous.

Actually I hadn't thought about seeing a solicitor at this stage. Maybe I should, it might communicate how seriously I take the issue to him as well. I don't think he would have any objections to putting legal measures in place which aren't marriage though.

I do think if you stay with him you're accepting that you won't marry at all. So if marriage is important to you, you need to decide if it's more important than staying together.

Sometimes I think about this, but I can't help but feel that it would be very selfish of me to break up our family for these reasons. And I do love DP, it would be hard to leave him.

OP posts:
Corygal · 21/04/2015 21:24

I really sympathise with you. Speaking practically, you can get some things sorted out without marriage eg wills and things. Sort that out first.

Stop doing things that benefit him but that you're not happy with. Don't have another baby without marriage, keep your DS's name as yours (not this) but make sure all joint assets are in joint names.

Now to the big one - can you bear to articulate why you feel DP is keeping you 'as disposable'?

SanityClause · 21/04/2015 21:25

The whole point about marriage is that it is a legally binding protection for the parties to the marriage, and the children of the marriage.

Children born outside of marriage now have some legal protection in the UK, but unmarried partners do not. (You can, of course, make other financial arrangements, to ensure financial protection for your partner. Marriage is just an easy, catch-all way of doing it.)

The "romantic" bit of getting married is showing that you care enough about them to ensure they have that legal protection.

If he reeeeeally doesn't want to get married, why don't you suggest going to a solicitor to sort out the legal stuff. His reaction will tell you what his true objections are.

AvocadoLime · 21/04/2015 21:28

The living on separate continents thing just relates to when job opportunities abroad have been mentioned, and I have asked what we would do about visas since we aren't married. He usually changes the subject or won't talk about it, saying that we'll think about it if it happens. So maybe we would get married in that scenario, maybe we wouldn't. I definitely would not want to live our lives apart like that though.

OP posts:
Twinklestein · 21/04/2015 21:33

I would give him two options: solicitor to sort out same legal and financial protection of marriage, or he jogs on.

VivaLeBeaver · 21/04/2015 21:33

I was in the same position 14 years ago. I gave him an ultimatum when dd was 4 months old, marry me or leave. I think I was a bit hormonal. Anyway it worked and we've been married 13 years now.

I do kind of feel bad for him that I had to put so much pressure on him but also for me that he wasn't more willing. Guess it worked out ok.

Dunno what I'd have done if he'd called my bluff.

AvocadoLime · 21/04/2015 21:35

The disposable thing, one of the reasons he does not want to get married is because he says he would not want to get divorced. I guess this just makes me sensitive to the possibility that he is either consciously or subconsciously keeping his options open to move on if he becomes bored. If he were willing to get married then it would make a powerful statement to me that he would not be willing to leave our family lightly.

We have mentioned having another baby, I would really like one eventually, but I am definitely not in a rush (in fact, I am about to have the implant fitted so I have that one covered!).

OP posts:
IdaClair · 21/04/2015 21:37

I am the other side of this equation.

I have DCs and will not marry their father, he would love to be married. I do not want to be married. I do not know if I ever will want to, I suspect not. I cannot see a problem with our relationship status as it is.

There is nothing necessarily wrong with just not wanting to be married. I have deep objections to the history, the process, the traditions, the ceremony, the intrusion into privacy, the public statement, the laws surrounding it.

AvocadoLime · 21/04/2015 21:39

Calling my bluff is exactly what I'm worried about Viva! Glad it worked for you though.

I expect he would skip to the solicitors if he thought it would shut me up about getting married. I guess I am a sentimental creature when it comes down to it. I thought there were some rights you can't get as an unmarried couple though, like being next of kin for funeral arrangements and in hospital, and inheritance tax? There may be more.

OP posts:
SanctimoniousItches · 21/04/2015 21:49

Do you work?

If you are a sahm then leave him and start again from scratch. There is more financial security in starting again with noting but building up from there.

I am honestly Shock in total shock that you say you would feel humiliated on your death bed because you're not married!

i think your problem is a low self-esteem! YOu need a healthy self-esteem more than you need a husband.

feelinghothothot · 21/04/2015 21:50

Yes, he is completely keeping you disposable. I'm sorry, but that is the harsh reality. He won't discuss practicalities of living abroad because he doesn't picture you into this scenario. I've seen this situation so many times. I'm very sorry for you. I would be making sure I had financial security for the future.

AvocadoLime · 21/04/2015 21:52

I have DCs and will not marry their father, he would love to be married. I do not want to be married. I do not know if I ever will want to, I suspect not. I cannot see a problem with our relationship status as it is.

It sounds like you are in a very different situation to ours, though. I can't stop my concern that if we were to split, I would be DS's primary carer and be left in the lurch, even if I do sign lots of legal contracts, because my earning power will be hindered significantly where as DP's won't have been. I worry that I would struggle to provide for him.

I know that marriage has a long history of oppressing women, but in a lot of modern families it also protects them.

OP posts:
AvocadoLime · 21/04/2015 21:59

I was full time self employed, currently on mat leave and retraining to be a childminder, Sanctimonious.

I feel humiliated that he won't marry me, and I said it would be a great regret if I never get married. "Humiliated on my death bed" does sound very dramatic! I agree I probably do have some self-esteem issues. I think I am actually improving on these though since I had DS.

OP posts:
AyeAmarok · 21/04/2015 22:04

What would you do if the father of your child would not marry you?

I would absolutely not be planning on not trying to build a career asap in order to be a pretty much SAHM. You really can't do this, you are leaving you and your DS so, so, vulnerable.

You need to make sure you are completely financially independent.

Jackieharris · 21/04/2015 22:04

The being affected by his parents divorce thing doesn't ring true- it didn't stop him marrying before.

Once someone's been divorced once I'm sure the chances of another divorce are higher. Maybe he just doesn't see any relationship as forever.

SylvaniansAtEase · 21/04/2015 22:05

No, there are some rights you can't replicate, such as inheritance tax.

It's quite simple. He's the higher earner, he's protecting his money. While you shoulder the shit: staying home, losing earning power, losing pension buildup. While he sits pretty and gets his lovely family created, cared for, brought up.

I'd tell him that its either marriage or you're over. Really. It's not a tactic, either - he's keeping his options open, and looking after no1, and I don't think I would ever really believe that a man with that agenda was truly worth being with. And yes, I would believe that he would be more likely to up sticks anyway.

No, marriage doesn't protect you from breaking up. But if you do break up, it makes damn sure you're protected from financial suffering because of the sacrifices you made for your family.

Your so-called life partner wants to prevent you from having that protection, because it might cost him.

Ultimatum time. With an added 'I want more children, siblings for DS, and I don't want them to be similarly unprotected... so make your decision because I'll be wanting to move on.'

AyeAmarok · 21/04/2015 22:09

And if your DP won't get married, then he'll need to support you on building your career instead and take a financial hit himself. He goes part time so he can do nursery drop-offs, cover sickness, can't go away on business trips, while you build your career until you're on an even footing.

Corygal · 21/04/2015 22:11

OP - if I were you, I would talk to DP about your fears. Not in a frightened, vulnerable way, but in a way that suggests you are keeping your options open about being DS's SAHP. Make it clear that you can't commit to personal financial ruin for the sake of DP's anti-marriage principles.

And don't - the smart move right now would be to keep working, keep training, keep active. Which you are doing. So explain that you will be spending time working to protect yourself and DS and DP has to man up and do his share of childcare and housework too. Your goal is to make not marrying you the undesirable option for him, while safeguarding yourself and DS simultaneously.

Barbarella · 21/04/2015 22:14

I agree with Sylvanians - he's keeping you disposable and if you're going to SAH you need to protect yourself. Or tell him that childcare is going to need to be 50/50 so he'll need to go part time as you're going back to work.

I'm sorry you're feeling sad, I would be too. And I guess you want him to want to marry you really, especially as you love him.

Barbarella · 21/04/2015 22:15

Being a SAHM without the protection of marriage puts you in a very vulnerable position Imo.