What would you do if the father of your child would not marry you?

[AvocadoLime]

NCed for this because people I know use MN.

DP and I have been together for 5 years, living together for 4. We rent a house, and have a seven month old son together. DS was a surprise pregnancy after a contraceptive failure, but very much loved and wanted.

I'll be upfront here, I really want to get married. My reasons are:

-I want financial protection for DS and myself. DP is carrying on in his career, I did not have a career established when DS was born, just a degree (I am younger than him) and I am currently doing a course to become a childminder when my MA runs out so that I can work and be with DS (makes sense for childcare reasons, and I want to be at home with him if I can). His earnings will likely be much higher than mine in, say, 5 years time because I will be taking responsibility for most of DS's care. I know people say that it is not romantic to marry for financial reasons, but I have DS to look out for now as well as myself so I feel I need to be pragmatic for his sake.

-There is a chance that DP could get a job outside of the EU one day because of the type of work he does. What then? We may have to live on different continents. He seems to avoid talking about this scenario ("well, we'll talk about that if it ever happens").

-Other areas of legal recognition, if one of us gets sick or dies. We would not be the others next of kin in hospital, we would not be in charge of each other's funeral arrangements and we would not be able to leave things to each other without getting hit by inheritance tax like a married couple.

-I want social recognition that we are a family, both for myself and DS. Currently DS has my last name, I would like us to all have the same name. I don't know what I'll tell DS when he's older about why his parents aren't married like everyone else's, and I certainly don't want him to worry about family stability if it can be avoided. I know that it works for some families who stay unmarried and I'm not trying to be disrespectful towards them, because my issue here most likely comes from the fact that I feel really quite humiliated that the man whose child I have carried and have lived together in a relationship for years does not want to marry me.

-Sentimental reasons. I always imagined that I would get married, and I want to on a deep level. It doesn't have to be a big wedding, we could elope abroad or whatever I'm not bothered, but I feel like it's something I would really regret on my deathbed if I never got married. Like I said above, I feel humiliated that he won't marry me. I really hate saying "my boyfriend", or "my partner". It feels like our relationship is not serious. I even avoid saying "DP" where I can when I am on Mumsnet! I know that sounds a bit silly, but I just feel a huge gut dislike of it and I can't help it.

-A nagging concern I have that the main reason he does not want to get married is to keep me disposable. He refutes this, but one of his reasons for not wanting to get married is that getting divorced is so long and ugly so I feel that this is a reason, he just does not like it being worded back to him so obviously.

(Am I missing any other important reasons? Genuine question).

Although he has made intermittent noises that he is considering it, he does not really want to get married. His reasons are:

-He has bad experiences of marriage. His parents went through a very nasty divorce when he was 10, he was manipulated by one parent into making claims about the other and he was left quite scarred by the experience. He also got married himself in his 20s and got divorced 7 years later. He says that the relationship went downhill straight away after getting married, although they had never lived together before getting married so I don't think that getting married was the only issue there. I try to be as sympathetic towards his past as I can but I also feel uncomfortable that he has lumped me and his ex into one category and assumes it would be the same with me.

-On a, well, philosophical level, I suppose, he says he does not like the concept of a marriage contract. He says that if you love each other then you should not have to have your relationship 'written into law', like you are commodities that belong to one another. He says it would be against his principals to get married.

-Divorce is long and ugly.

-He says he is happy with our relationship the way it is, and he thinks that if we got married we may become complacent toward trying to maintain it.

-He says he would be far less happy being married than I would be to not be married, though I don't see how he could quantify that quite so easily, especially since I tend to bury my negative feelings a lot and have a breezy exterior, whereas he is not like that at all.

(I have noticed on threads like this people always ask if it is the actual wedding ceremony he objects to - this is not DP's issue, he is concerned with being married, not getting married).

Anyway, we have hit upon a stalemate, basically. I don't really know what to do or how to feel about this. Sometimes I feel really quite resentful about him not wanting to get married and suspicious of his motives, and I consider whether or not our relationship has a future. On the other hand, we do have a good relationship (well, apart from this aspect of it which makes me quite unhappy IYSWIM), and I would want our DS to grow up in a two-parent household if possible, I would feel terribly guilty I think for taking that away from him unless there were any major relationship problems like abuse or cheating. Can I have some thoughts? What would you do in this situation? I probably just need to talk through my feelings as much as anything.

I wish there was something I could say to change his mind (suggestions?) but it's probably unlikely if I'm realistic.

Please don't have a go at me, I'm feeling a bit sad about all of this.

She does not need marriage to protect herself. She needs a good job and independent earning potential, and tenants in common on a jointly owned home at some point. He may want to get married at some point, or he may not. As long as she can support herself and her dc, she can stay or go as she pleases. I hope it all works out with you and your dp, OP!

Shirley I understand your point, but realistically I would be the resident parent if we were to split up. It's not as simple as him wanting to protect himself and that's that, because if he left then it would also mean DS losing his home, and me losing my half of anything we acquired together which I would use to rebuild a stable life for my DS.

Thank you to the person who called me articulate, it's not a compliment I have received before!

he says he does not like the concept of a marriage contract. He says that if you love each other then you should not have to have your relationship 'written into law'

Marriage IS a financial contract, written into law, in order to protect the partner whose individual financial position is weakened by making sacrifices for the good of the couple.

Basically, rearing the children.

If he's not ready to give you that protection by making your position legally and financially secure, now that YOUR present and future earnings are taking a hit due to having DS, then he can bloody well resign his fancy job and be the SAHP while YOU shore up your career.

Ask him how much HE likes the idea of taking the entire financial hit, with no security, and sees how he likes it.

He doesn't like that idea? Then he marries you.

Self-serving man.

Excellent post, Goats

Basically, put it to him that if he wouldn't do it himself (be SAHP without a marriage contract), then why on earth expect you to do it?

Self-serving people only see their own interests, so it sometimes helps to put them in your shoes: get them to visualise how they would defend their interests if they were in your position.

Then they'll sometimes admit the logic of it (they only see logic in terms of whose interests are being served).

Not that I would want to be married to such a man. But since it's what you seek, I think that's the best way to go about it.

I couldn't agree more Goats

And I'm not merrily typing this from the position of a happy marriage to a decent fair-minded man.

I left a man (years ago now) with his two small children in tow. The situation was different because by that point I had no illusions that I loved him. I had grown to realise how selfish he was. But along the path to that realisation I had tried to reason with him to get him to acknowledge that all the financial sacrifices were mine, that all the risk was mine, that I had no rights, that I had no pension. It all fell on deaf ears. He spluttered up various platitudes like the OP's 'partner'.

Eventually I left with two dependants and not the proverbial pot to piss in. It takes a while and it was hard financially and emotionally but now I'm back on my feet financially, in a modest way. I am feathering my own modest nest. I'm not a resource to be plundered.

Of course, for a long time, my x capitalised on my selflessness because I did make so many sacrifices for the children. He believed that my biggest fear was to be a single mother so I had no bargaining position at all. Obviously that was true. IF you say/believe things like it would humiliate you to lie on your death bed and have been a single parent then he is right, he has you over a barrel and you have no bargaining position at all.

When I left my x and he saw that I was prepared to start again, with nothing, on benefits so that my pension contributions would be made, and so that whatever little I could accumulate over the years would be for me not him, then he wanted to get married!

Luckily by that point, I saw his selfishness so clearly and it revolted me.

This paragraph makes me feel worried for your future

"-He says he would be far less happy being married than I would be to not be married, though I don't see how he could quantify that quite so easily, especially since I tend to bury my negative feelings a lot and have a breezy exterior, whereas he is not like that at all".

So, he claims that it would actually cost him his happiness to divide the financial sacrifices of parenting equally! Wow. That's quite a shocking admission from him.

You're right Goats, I will include something to that effect in the letter I am writing to him.

I'm glad to read your story Sanctimonious, it rings true with me.

Though can I just reiterate - the thing I said I find humiliating is that I am raising our baby and am making sacrifices and he won't marry me and thus make any in return, not that if I were to be a single parent I would find it socially humiliating. That is far from the case, I have a lot of respect for single parents.

He said that happiness thing in the context that he believes marriage would be against his principles and that he thinks relationships become about obligation rather than love once you get married.

OP I'm in a similar position to you. My DP is a divorcé, burnt by his previous experience of marriage. He is adamant that he will never marry again and of course, this makes me sad. I've never wanted a big wedding but would be very happy to call the man I love my husband.

I do know that he doesn't consider me "disposable" and I think it wrong for PPs to assume that this is a reason for not wanting to marry, although you may feel that this does apply to you. I feel very much loved and can understand and appreciate my DP's feelings.

Do you think marriage would make you feel more loved or are your reasons for wanting to marry more on the practical side?

We are currently expecting DC1 and this is making me more conscious of the practical issues. As such, we will be making new wills together covering our assets, joint or otherwise and will include guardianship of any children. We can also minimise inheritance tax by using a trust for our children (if there's anything left to inherit!).

Look at advicenow.org.uk in relation to next of kin. You can nominate whoever you like but make sure it's written down by both of you.

I think PPs are correct in making sure that you are self-sufficient. Pursue your career and work hard for all your futures.

With regards to working abroad, I know 2 couples who only got married due to visa issues when relocating. It didn't mean that they weren't serious about each other prior to moving/marriage but that they hadn't had a reason to do so beforehand. They just weren't that interested until a good enough reason arose.

Sorry, but if he won't marry you, you need to go back to work. PPs have spelled out why this is but in a nutshell he is launching off your sacrifice to fly high in his career, without giving you the protection of marriage - in effect yes, keeping you disposable. If he's hedging his bets like this, then you have to do so as well: you need enough of an independent income to be able to survive on your own if he does decide to drop you without the 'long and painful' process of divorce.

I feel really angry on your behalf about his behaviour

If he loved you enough he'd want to marry you though.

OP, even if for now you feeel humiliated by the thoughts of being a single mother, research benefits etc. I promise you it will make you feel more powerful in a negotiation.

True OTheHugeManatee, it's not good enough to listen to his rationalisations for not wanting marriage.

Tell him he will be responsible for childcare HALF the week because you need to get back to work and get back to work soon.

You're writing him a letter?

How do you feel about confrontation generally, OP?

Zampa, do you have your own place? don't whatever you do give up work. make sure he takes 50% of the responsibility for childcare and its cost.

Don't let him use the old 'i was burnt the first time round chestnut'

I dated a divorced man once and he spun out that line too (not that I would have married him in a mad fit!). He resented paying out a percentage of his pension to his xw. But she had stayed at home for years with the kids and so they didn't have the expense of childcare. I told him what I thought that it was bringing children in to the world that cost him a percentage of his pension. Pay childcare or pay later.

I was on his xw's side!! That didn't go down well with him. But after him telling me on the first date he'd never get married again, I ended it. Men, they would have it every way if you let them, they would just reach in to your wallet and empty it some of them.

And I agree that you need to get back to work, ideally full-time. Then he is faced with the choice of becoming SAHP himself (...) or parting with cash to pay for childcare, which will be a concrete way for him to shoulder some of (and recognise) the financial sacrifice you've been making to date for the sake of the family.

Some men. not all. Not all men will be as selfish as they can get away with being. The good ones don't want to be selfish.

Op, I think you are doing the right thing writing the letter explaining your feelings and making yourself more self sufficient. To be honest I read all your DP's reasons for not wanting to get married and just think they are crap excuses and he is a selfish git. I think if it was me I would definitely be giving an ultimatum but I appreciate that might not be easy for you. As for you not wanting to break up the family as far as I am concerned he would be the one doing that and you and your DS deserve better.
Sorry if that's a bit blunt but I'm actually angry on your behalf reading the rubbish excuses he has come out with!
Oh and this - 'On a, well, philosophical level, I suppose, he says he does not like the concept of a marriage contract. He says that if you love each other then you should not have to have your relationship 'written into law', like you are commodities that belong to one another. He says it would be against his principals to get married.' what a load of BS!!

As I protested in my last post, I have never said that I feel humiliated by the thoughts of being a single mother!

But yes, I will. Maybe Citizens Advice might be a good idea.

I wrote my x hundreds of letters! Bring in the big guns ey

Get on to citizens advice, research what you'd be eligible for. Leave him. Even if your plan is to hope that he realises what he's missing and marries you, if that doesn't happen then you'd be already set up. I felt like it raised my self-esteem (very low at the time, omg, in the gutter) to realise that the state would look after us and thank goodness for them. It made me feel so grateful. My x, the children's father wanted to plunder me like a resource but the govt would look after the vulnerable and we fell in to that category at the time. It was good to know.

Sorry Avocado, I really wasn't intending to make you feel bad, I just remember the mindset and how it worked against me in any 'negotiation'. My x did genuinely have me over a barrel for a long time because for a long time I was prepared to take whatever scrap I was thrown because in my mind, it was better than the alternative. And the reality is that whilst you feel like that, that what you have now is Better Than The Alternative then there is a lack of bargaining chips on your side.

Personally I think if you do the training and start a career that will work wonders for your self esteem. Once you are feeling good about yourself I wonder if you might feel he isn't good enough for you...because from the little I've heard he certainly isn't someone I would entertain being married to.

Sorry that you find yourself in this position OP but I agree with others that if he doesn't want to marry you (for whatever reason) then it will be hard to persuade him otherwise. However I disagree in that I don't think he is taking the piss and keeping you "disposable" its just that he doesn't want to get married. "Not loving you enough" is completely spurious as his reasons don't appear to have anything to do with love.

I do think its important that you get as much legal advice as you can to get as much covered as possible outside a marriage contract and also look to retain your financial independence.

Personally I will never marry again regardless of how much I am "in love" with anyone and want to spend the rest of my life with them. A high profile London divorce lawyer also recently questioned why any man would want to get married and having been completely screwed myself (both financially and with respect to the children) I can understand her point of view...

Hope you can find a middle-ground that works for you both.

Just another one who would reiterate getting him to a solicitors, maybe, to talk through the ramifications.

And I say that as someone who is consciously not married. Neither of us want to be. However, we have made all the legal and financial ties that we can, and are fortunate to be in a position where we both earn the same amount so it is less of an issue.

Despite being someone who disagrees with marriage (for me), something about his reasons don't ring quite true for me. And as everyone else has said, it is not being the mother of his child that is the issue, it's being a SAHM without the legal protection.

IMO, it's worth pushing him on this one. Really worth it.

I know 3 women in this situation, unmarried with lower incomes than partners. They all have 2 kids each. I don't know the arrangements, but 2 of them are very well educated and their husbands just don't believe in marriage. Both of them seem to hanker after marriage but have accepted it as part of being with their DPs. However, I think they accepted it before children and I am fairly sure they have financial arrangements such as the house in both names, wills written etc. It's always struck me as unfair and 'unfeminist' when they are quite feminist types that they have to bow to their men's 'will'! But I suppose someone has to get their way, it's not something you can compromise on.