What would you do if the father of your child would not marry you?

[AvocadoLime]

NCed for this because people I know use MN.

DP and I have been together for 5 years, living together for 4. We rent a house, and have a seven month old son together. DS was a surprise pregnancy after a contraceptive failure, but very much loved and wanted.

I'll be upfront here, I really want to get married. My reasons are:

-I want financial protection for DS and myself. DP is carrying on in his career, I did not have a career established when DS was born, just a degree (I am younger than him) and I am currently doing a course to become a childminder when my MA runs out so that I can work and be with DS (makes sense for childcare reasons, and I want to be at home with him if I can). His earnings will likely be much higher than mine in, say, 5 years time because I will be taking responsibility for most of DS's care. I know people say that it is not romantic to marry for financial reasons, but I have DS to look out for now as well as myself so I feel I need to be pragmatic for his sake.

-There is a chance that DP could get a job outside of the EU one day because of the type of work he does. What then? We may have to live on different continents. He seems to avoid talking about this scenario ("well, we'll talk about that if it ever happens").

-Other areas of legal recognition, if one of us gets sick or dies. We would not be the others next of kin in hospital, we would not be in charge of each other's funeral arrangements and we would not be able to leave things to each other without getting hit by inheritance tax like a married couple.

-I want social recognition that we are a family, both for myself and DS. Currently DS has my last name, I would like us to all have the same name. I don't know what I'll tell DS when he's older about why his parents aren't married like everyone else's, and I certainly don't want him to worry about family stability if it can be avoided. I know that it works for some families who stay unmarried and I'm not trying to be disrespectful towards them, because my issue here most likely comes from the fact that I feel really quite humiliated that the man whose child I have carried and have lived together in a relationship for years does not want to marry me.

-Sentimental reasons. I always imagined that I would get married, and I want to on a deep level. It doesn't have to be a big wedding, we could elope abroad or whatever I'm not bothered, but I feel like it's something I would really regret on my deathbed if I never got married. Like I said above, I feel humiliated that he won't marry me. I really hate saying "my boyfriend", or "my partner". It feels like our relationship is not serious. I even avoid saying "DP" where I can when I am on Mumsnet! I know that sounds a bit silly, but I just feel a huge gut dislike of it and I can't help it.

-A nagging concern I have that the main reason he does not want to get married is to keep me disposable. He refutes this, but one of his reasons for not wanting to get married is that getting divorced is so long and ugly so I feel that this is a reason, he just does not like it being worded back to him so obviously.

(Am I missing any other important reasons? Genuine question).

Although he has made intermittent noises that he is considering it, he does not really want to get married. His reasons are:

-He has bad experiences of marriage. His parents went through a very nasty divorce when he was 10, he was manipulated by one parent into making claims about the other and he was left quite scarred by the experience. He also got married himself in his 20s and got divorced 7 years later. He says that the relationship went downhill straight away after getting married, although they had never lived together before getting married so I don't think that getting married was the only issue there. I try to be as sympathetic towards his past as I can but I also feel uncomfortable that he has lumped me and his ex into one category and assumes it would be the same with me.

-On a, well, philosophical level, I suppose, he says he does not like the concept of a marriage contract. He says that if you love each other then you should not have to have your relationship 'written into law', like you are commodities that belong to one another. He says it would be against his principals to get married.

-Divorce is long and ugly.

-He says he is happy with our relationship the way it is, and he thinks that if we got married we may become complacent toward trying to maintain it.

-He says he would be far less happy being married than I would be to not be married, though I don't see how he could quantify that quite so easily, especially since I tend to bury my negative feelings a lot and have a breezy exterior, whereas he is not like that at all.

(I have noticed on threads like this people always ask if it is the actual wedding ceremony he objects to - this is not DP's issue, he is concerned with being married, not getting married).

Anyway, we have hit upon a stalemate, basically. I don't really know what to do or how to feel about this. Sometimes I feel really quite resentful about him not wanting to get married and suspicious of his motives, and I consider whether or not our relationship has a future. On the other hand, we do have a good relationship (well, apart from this aspect of it which makes me quite unhappy IYSWIM), and I would want our DS to grow up in a two-parent household if possible, I would feel terribly guilty I think for taking that away from him unless there were any major relationship problems like abuse or cheating. Can I have some thoughts? What would you do in this situation? I probably just need to talk through my feelings as much as anything.

I wish there was something I could say to change his mind (suggestions?) but it's probably unlikely if I'm realistic.

Please don't have a go at me, I'm feeling a bit sad about all of this.

I have lots of thoughts about this one- as the partner who does not a ant to be married, so will come back later but just wanted to say don't worry about this one -" I don't know what I'll tell DS when he's older about why his parents aren't married like everyone else's" - everyone else's aren't! This has never been a glimmer of an issue for our children.

And definitely do not have another child with this man.

getting married protects you and your ds. Imagine in ten years time, you split. You've been a Sahm all this time and he has built his career.

Now, imagine how it would pan out if you were or weren't married.

I am not talking about the love/ commitment of marriage. It's all about the money. In a divorce court the love and commitment bit of marriage is of no consequence and it doesn't matter whose fault the split is etc etc.

Do not become a childminder. Think how he would arrange for your child to be cared for if you weren't there, and expect him to pay for that so that you can build a career that can support you and DS if need be (and to pull his weight with things like dropping off and picking up from childcare). If you're not married you absolutely should not even think about sacrificing your earning potential to enable his career to proceed as if he'd never had a child. Go for the thing you would have gone for if you hadn't had your DS.

No relationship advice, but do be aware that you would be making yourself and your DS very vulnerable if you rely on your partner financially.

From my experience, when a man says he doesn't want to get married it actually means he doesn't want to get married TO YOU :(. If you split up you might find he will get married to somebody else withing 1 or 2 years :(

within

i dont think that's true. If someone has a bad experience of marriage it can seem like a massively scary thing. Most people get married thinking its forever, and most marriages these days end in divorce. I think i know one person whos in their first marriage, and even thats on its way out.
Getting married is a massive gamble even if you love the person dearly

As a sahm you are vulnerable. I really hate to hear myself encouraging people to get married...I know that on many levels it's an outmoded sexist institution, based on the slavery laws (woman as chattel) and I really wish there was a way of entering a partnership that had equivalent legal protection. I've never been a white dress fantasist and I never wanted a big wedding. I think women and men should be independent in a partnership.

BUT...

Over the past few years I've seen several friends royally screwed over (both men and women) by affairs/divorce/shitty behaviour, and it's really made me change my views. Marriage is the best legal protection there is, partnerships, lawyers, they can sew up a lot but not everything. Right now, rightly or wrongly, marriage is it. This is why gay people have been fighting so hard for it - it's not about slushy emotion, or wanting a Hollywood wedding, it's about protecting your lives together. Add children to the mix and it's even more vital to have that protection. When my other half and I talked about children, I told him ring on finger before we even begin trying, and he was perfectly ok with that. Your DHs reasons are not good enough.

I think you need to sit him down and explain your worries. Emphasise that it's about legal protection for your child - a couple I knew had the father die when they were unmarried, she lost everything - her DH, the house, everything. Either he nips down the registry office or you go to a solicitor and sew up everything you possibly can.

Do NOT sacrifice your career. When you go back to work, make sure he's paying half the childcare, for example. Keep your independence. If he protests, you just say that as an unmarried sahm you're too vulnerable.

Good luck, it's a tough situation, and I hate to say it because I don't know you, but he sounds like he's not comitted to the relationship.

Like Corygal said upthread: Make it clear that you can't commit to personal financial ruin for the sake of DP's anti-marriage principles. - keep working, keep training, keep active, to protect yourself and DS, DP has to man up and do his share of childcare and housework too. Your goal is to make not marrying you the undesirable option for him, while safeguarding yourself and DS simultaneously.

Being a SAHP with no career prospects can sometimes be the right choice for some women.
Not being married to the father of their children is often the right choice for many women (and this is frequent enough that your dc will never be the only ones)

It's both together that are causing problems. He wants to have his cake and eat it, reaping all the benefits of having a SAH wife and a child with no responsibility.

If he won't marry you, you certainly need to create some financial independence for yourself. If you continue to feel being a full time SAHP is the right choice for the DCs then perhaps his salary should start going into an account in your sole name, so that you get to keep what is left over after paying rent, bills, food and essentials, and can save up a lump sum so you won't be destitute if he leaves you and you end up a single mum with no earning power. Or if his salary is enough to get a mortgage, buying a property (the mortgage would be solely in his name if you aren't earning) and putting the deeds as tenants in common with at least 75% in your name.

As it stands, if you split you will be really in the sh*t as you are sacrificing your earning power not just now but for many years to come, for his sake. He owes you some protection from that. Either by giving you financial security now, or by making a binding commitment that there is no intention that you'll ever split, but that if you do he will take his responsibility to support you seriously. In our culture we call that "marriage".

Thanks for all of the replies.

I was going to do a primary PGCE this year (I had a place on a course but had to give it up to have DS). I had experience and a good academic record so getting the place wasn't too hard, I'm sure I could again.

There are a lot of advantages of going on with the childminding, one of them being that it is at least relevant to what I had wanted to do before should I go back to it. One of my major concerns, though, is that if our relationship ended then I wouldn't just lose my relationship, but I wouldn't be able to afford to pay the rent on our property on my own, so I would lose our home and my means of income! So yes, it is obviously far from perfect. It is a shame because I would absolutely love to go ahead with it in the short term, but it's certainly clear that I need to find a means of earning money which is completely independent of DP, whatever that ends up being.

I have spoken to him about my concerns, but I feel like I am not very good at putting my points forward coherently, like he is. In fact part of my reason for starting a thread like this was to help with that.

I think that you have to accept that he doesn't want to get married. But he has to accept he cannot expect you make all the sacrifices to the common good if he's not committed to the common good.
So I would go to a lawyer and get all the legal stuff sorted; I would make sure you both have financial independence, and that he does an equal amount of childcare, either by paying extra or scaling back his career in the way you would have to. And if he baulks at any of this - well, it's not the emotional part he's protecting himself from.......

Avocado - could you write things down. Either notes to prompt yourself in a proper chat, or (and I think this works well) a proper letter that he can read and digest in his own time, setting out the legal and financial problems he's creating for you and your son, and an expectation of what he needs to do to provide in terms of legal contracts, childcare to allow you to build your career etc if he isn't willing to marry you.

Seeing it it black and white might give him some food for thought on the impossible position he's putting you both in. If he genuinely cares for you he'll either make proper legal provisions for you or seriously consider the practical benefits of marriage

in your situation i would be getting as much in savings in my name as possible and definitely doing that pgce/working full time

Sunshine - Yes, I had actually been thinking that a letter might be a good next step. I will start working on it.

I would not be a sahm if the father of my child would not marry me. I would ensure that I was financially independent. I would also ensure that I was legally protected as far as possible - legal right to house, life insurance, wills drawn up properly, everything. It may not end up with all the rights that marriage gives you in one fell swoop, but it reduces the risk of you ending up in 20 years with fuck all if the relationship breaks down.

Sorry I agree with Berry, seen it too many times...they don't believe in marriage until they meet someone their scared of loosing.

You cannot make someone do something they don't want to do. Frankly you would be very foolish to give up your own financial independence and security, and for what its worth I feel the same about married couples. Do your training, get your career established, and you may find in the process that he isn't that an attractive proposition.

I can only reiterate don't become a childminder in this scenario. Look after yourself first.

this is why it is so important to be financially independent.

can't you see the irony in the following ?

one of your reasons to get married is to be protected in the event of a split.

one of his reasons not to marry is he doesn't want to get shafted in the event of a split.

I'm amazed anyone gets married ! I have to say I agree with his viewpoint , thought I fully understand yours.

I won't gets married for more or less the same reasons

OP - that's excellent about the PGCE. Get back on a course and get that done - it is a non-earning year but while you have a dp to support you I would jump at that chance. It is a very challenging 10 months but once you have QTS you can get a job that will pay rent and leave school holidays (kinda sorta) free(ish). You will need to plan childcare with dp as the hours are long and one day of your weekends may also be taken up with coursework. But you will have a solid professional qualification in a growth industry - excellent employment prospects. Go for it! Get that tough year of no money coming in done asap. Also, if you two do stay together and his overseas job comes through, you could find work at an international school, or tutoring, etc. All while maintaining your independent earning power and adding depth to your cv.

I had a very similar scenario to deal with. DP never wanted to get married, although I never doubted his commitment to me. We bought a house together and had a child after ten years, and I continued with my career.

During our time together I had to accept that he felt strongly about not getting married, but that it wasn't personal to me. It helped that I wouldn't want to marry a man who I had effectively given an ultimatum to. I can't think it would have made for a happy wedding day.

While I would originally have preferred to be married, he has always been such a strong supportive partner that I have never regretted my decision to stay together, unmarried, and it seems so irrelevant now. However... we are now going to marry next year, on our 20 year anniversary. At his instigation. So please don't write off your relationship necessarily, I think do try and not take his valid feelings personally. I know this is hard. And I agree with others- protect your career! You will never regret that!

Good luck- and take it easy on each other.

OP I think you are very articulate. You could write a variation of your reasons for wanting to get married that you posted here - they were well formulated and succinct. Would he consider counselling to try to come to terms with his fear of divorce?

Marriage is the easiest and safest way to protect yourself. You can go to a solicitor make wills, take out life insurance etc but the beneficiaries of these can be changed. A joint account can also be cleared out without warning. Having your name as a tenant in common on a property is about the only failsafe in my experience.

"I think the only thing that would make him WANT to marry you, is for you to leave and for him to miss you. I've seen a billion times over how men really, truly only realise how much they need/want/love a woman when she is no longer there. "

in my experience the very opposite is true.
I have often discussed with friends the fact broken hearted men who have been dumped spring to life almost immediately with the next woman that comes along!

people keep citing the reason of the OP getting married to protect herself.

This is NOT a selling point to the one who doesn't want to marry - quite the opposite

It's a toughie whichever way you look at it...

I have had very negative experiences of marriage in my life too so I can understand your DP being reluctant to marry and potentially get hurt again... Has he had any kind of counselling? Might be a good place to start if he is really struggling to move past his feelings around his previous experiences of marriage.

Why is he thinking there is a likelihood of divorce? Either this is built up because of his negative experiences only, in which case he probably should talk to someone about it, or it is because in his heart of hearts he doesn't see your relationship as a permanent thing, in which case you are wasting your time with him whether you end up getting married to him or not.

It's a really tough situation.

Nothing is certain - fine - but using the potential of divorce as a reason not to get married is a bit of a cop out, particularly when you are to all intents and purposes living as a married couple.

You deserve to have everything you want in a relationship and if you want to get married, you deserve to have that. There is nothing wrong with wanting to get married.

I would hate to have to reason with my partner for them to marry me, especially since you have both made the ultimate commitment by sharing genes and having a child together.

Sorry but it doesn't make him look that great to me. I don't think that I could respect a man who didn't want to protect the rights of the mother of his child, whatever his reasons. But then again I wouldn't have had any children prior to being married so perhaps that says more about me.

Please don't give up your prospects and seriously consider how you want your future relationship to look. If marriage is important to you you may not be able to get that from him, would you be satisfied with being longterm partners? If yes then that's your perogative. What I'm trying to say is you have choices too, don't simply allow him to decide your fate.