What would you do if the father of your child would not marry you?

[AvocadoLime]

NCed for this because people I know use MN.

DP and I have been together for 5 years, living together for 4. We rent a house, and have a seven month old son together. DS was a surprise pregnancy after a contraceptive failure, but very much loved and wanted.

I'll be upfront here, I really want to get married. My reasons are:

-I want financial protection for DS and myself. DP is carrying on in his career, I did not have a career established when DS was born, just a degree (I am younger than him) and I am currently doing a course to become a childminder when my MA runs out so that I can work and be with DS (makes sense for childcare reasons, and I want to be at home with him if I can). His earnings will likely be much higher than mine in, say, 5 years time because I will be taking responsibility for most of DS's care. I know people say that it is not romantic to marry for financial reasons, but I have DS to look out for now as well as myself so I feel I need to be pragmatic for his sake.

-There is a chance that DP could get a job outside of the EU one day because of the type of work he does. What then? We may have to live on different continents. He seems to avoid talking about this scenario ("well, we'll talk about that if it ever happens").

-Other areas of legal recognition, if one of us gets sick or dies. We would not be the others next of kin in hospital, we would not be in charge of each other's funeral arrangements and we would not be able to leave things to each other without getting hit by inheritance tax like a married couple.

-I want social recognition that we are a family, both for myself and DS. Currently DS has my last name, I would like us to all have the same name. I don't know what I'll tell DS when he's older about why his parents aren't married like everyone else's, and I certainly don't want him to worry about family stability if it can be avoided. I know that it works for some families who stay unmarried and I'm not trying to be disrespectful towards them, because my issue here most likely comes from the fact that I feel really quite humiliated that the man whose child I have carried and have lived together in a relationship for years does not want to marry me.

-Sentimental reasons. I always imagined that I would get married, and I want to on a deep level. It doesn't have to be a big wedding, we could elope abroad or whatever I'm not bothered, but I feel like it's something I would really regret on my deathbed if I never got married. Like I said above, I feel humiliated that he won't marry me. I really hate saying "my boyfriend", or "my partner". It feels like our relationship is not serious. I even avoid saying "DP" where I can when I am on Mumsnet! I know that sounds a bit silly, but I just feel a huge gut dislike of it and I can't help it.

-A nagging concern I have that the main reason he does not want to get married is to keep me disposable. He refutes this, but one of his reasons for not wanting to get married is that getting divorced is so long and ugly so I feel that this is a reason, he just does not like it being worded back to him so obviously.

(Am I missing any other important reasons? Genuine question).

Although he has made intermittent noises that he is considering it, he does not really want to get married. His reasons are:

-He has bad experiences of marriage. His parents went through a very nasty divorce when he was 10, he was manipulated by one parent into making claims about the other and he was left quite scarred by the experience. He also got married himself in his 20s and got divorced 7 years later. He says that the relationship went downhill straight away after getting married, although they had never lived together before getting married so I don't think that getting married was the only issue there. I try to be as sympathetic towards his past as I can but I also feel uncomfortable that he has lumped me and his ex into one category and assumes it would be the same with me.

-On a, well, philosophical level, I suppose, he says he does not like the concept of a marriage contract. He says that if you love each other then you should not have to have your relationship 'written into law', like you are commodities that belong to one another. He says it would be against his principals to get married.

-Divorce is long and ugly.

-He says he is happy with our relationship the way it is, and he thinks that if we got married we may become complacent toward trying to maintain it.

-He says he would be far less happy being married than I would be to not be married, though I don't see how he could quantify that quite so easily, especially since I tend to bury my negative feelings a lot and have a breezy exterior, whereas he is not like that at all.

(I have noticed on threads like this people always ask if it is the actual wedding ceremony he objects to - this is not DP's issue, he is concerned with being married, not getting married).

Anyway, we have hit upon a stalemate, basically. I don't really know what to do or how to feel about this. Sometimes I feel really quite resentful about him not wanting to get married and suspicious of his motives, and I consider whether or not our relationship has a future. On the other hand, we do have a good relationship (well, apart from this aspect of it which makes me quite unhappy IYSWIM), and I would want our DS to grow up in a two-parent household if possible, I would feel terribly guilty I think for taking that away from him unless there were any major relationship problems like abuse or cheating. Can I have some thoughts? What would you do in this situation? I probably just need to talk through my feelings as much as anything.

I wish there was something I could say to change his mind (suggestions?) but it's probably unlikely if I'm realistic.

Please don't have a go at me, I'm feeling a bit sad about all of this.

Goats, I am happy with confrontation in theory, but I find my feelings on this matter hard to express off the cuff, so I end up unable to communicate my concerns very succinctly in a verbal discussion. I think writing a letter would be a good step forwards.

It's good to know about your experience with benefits, Sanctimonious. Did you have any problems getting social housing following leaving your current home/relationship voluntarily?

Sorry I wrote husbands, that should be 'partners'!

OP - I really feel for you. I met my first DH when I was 22. By the time I was in my late 20s, everyone around us was getting married, but DH never mentioned anything about us tying the knot, and to be honest his lack of commitment started to get embarrassing. We lived together, and he often mentioned starting a family, but got very shifty if I mentioned marriage. I realise everyone is different re children, but there was no way I would have a baby unless he married me. It appeared he wanted all the benefits of married life whilst co-habiting. His parents were happily married (it was mine who'd split when I was younger) so he had no previous bad experiences to use as an excuse.

When I was 31, I finally had a huge meltdown (fuelled by white wine) about this, and he relented and agreed to set a date. The wedding day (I was 32 by this time) was wonderful, my wait was finally over. Happy Ending? No chance .....

Just one year later he started the affair that ended our brief marriage. He ended up telling me that he never wanted to get married, he only did it to shut me up. I often suspect that if we'd never tied the knot, he wouldn't have cheated (although obviously I'll never know for sure) however if we hadn't have married, I would have been deeply unhappy and I don't know if we would have stayed together.

I should add that I met my second husband quite quickly afterwards, and he was only too happy to marry me, even though he'd had a horrendous divorce himself some years previously.

The moral of the tale? Force a man into marriage and you may live to regret it. I still think that if a man really loves you and is genuinely committed, he'll want to marry you without any persuasion.

But OP, I think you're entirely justified to want to get married. I just don't have any words of advice.

Make a list of the protections marriage would give you.

Just for starters:
The next of kin issue;
Equal stakes in the house;
Compensation for your (singular) lost earnings/career progression due to looking after the children that belong to both of you (plural);
Life insurance provision in the event of one or other of you dying;
Wills...

Put that list in front of him and ask what, if he's not prepared to marry you, he's going to do about each issue in turn. If he's decent but has genuine philosophical objections to marriage, then he'll be prepared to answer and put the necessary steps in place to provide you with the stability and security you need. If he ducks answering, then, as has been suggested upthread, you're disposable and he's worried that you'll stop washing his socks once the ink on the marriage certificate is dried. If the former, then you're alright. If the latter, LTB.

Ugh @writing a letter. What more is there to say?! He knows you want marriage, he is not prepared to give it to you. A letter won't make him slap his forehead and exclaim, "I have been foolish! Let us away to the church this very hour!"

A letter will make him think, "This again." And, "By letter? WTF?"

Oh I don't know, some of the things I am able to say written down have not been properly discussed out loud. It's not entirely that I think a letter would change his mind, but it would mean that he couldn't evade certain issues as he has written down in black and white, so we might be able to have a more constructive discussion about it, even if that does end up with us splitting up or deciding not to get married. We'll see, anyway.

My DP and father of my child won't marry me for similar reasons. Although our situation is different because I already have a career and earn as much as he does.

I don't necessarily want to be married, I just wanted to make sure I wouldn't be up shit creek if he died or left me for OW.

I went to see a solicitor and then we did the following things:

Made wills leaving everything to each other. And if either of our estates was over the Inheritance Tax threshold, instructed the remainder to be held in trust for the kids.

Named each other beneficiaries of our pensions if either should die.

Added my name to the deeds of the house.

And I changed my name by deed poll as well.

You can also pay a solicitor to draw up a power of attorney agreement which tackles all of the next of kin stuff, but we decided not to bother with that.

So all of those measures are enough for me as long as I am financially independent. But I've told DP I will never give up work to become a SAHM unless he marries me. So that means any more children we have are put into paid childcare and we just have to shoulder the cost out of the family pot.

I think you should suggest to your partner that you do all of the above. If he baulks at that then I'm afraid you have a real problem on your hands.

I ended up in the situation you are worried about, it's not a rare one is it? I wrote out my little bio, but it's not a unique story. I won't bore you with it.

I wish that I had kept my hand in, instead of thinking I was safe and could take time to concentrate solely on DS. Voluntary work, training, part time work. I was suddenly thrown into needing to get back to work and it was unpleasant for me and for DS.

At my lowest point I was reduced to searching down the back of my brothers sofa for loose change, when just a year before I would have smugly told you that "we" had a bulletproof plan for the future. Being married gives you some guarantees that the rug won't be fully whipped away from under your feet.

And your DP is a fool if he doesn't realize that his hangups could eventually cause the scenario that he's worried about.

If he won't offer you security you have to take it for yourself. That means when he is home you can work and build up some emergency savings, you can study in the evenings, there is voluntary work you can do with a little one in tow, community gardens, etc, but if I were you I'd have something on the go all the time. And be honest about why - you can't trust that he may not waltz off at some point, so you need to protect you and your child.

Cheapsunglasses there's something about your post that made me sad; that even though he won't marry you, you've still changed your name to his.

Thanks for your list Cheapsunglasses, those are some good points.

Petal really no need to be sad. We gave our DD his name and so the main reason I've changed it is so I can have the same name as her.

Maybe that is sad?

I don't feel sad about it.

Cheapsunglasses - I just wish he'd marry you, that's all !!!

I don't like how he puts all future possibilities on the heap of "We'll cross that bridge when we get there"...

With that statement he is relegating your future to his whims.

I agree with you forging ahead with your financial independence.

Amongst all the people saying he doesn't love you and he's taking advantage, please also take note of posts by cheapsunglasses and swededreams.

Marriage is made up of 2 people and neither should dictate to the other about a commitment like marriage. Do ensure that you're protected financially (good post by Cheap) and pursue your career.

Love and be loved.

If marriage is a deal breaker, then issue your ultimatum. However, I'd never be happy knowing someone had married me due to a forced decision.

Ha Petal as long as we both earn the same, it doesn't actually much material difference whether we're married or not. If anything he's in the slightly more vulnerable position (won't bore you with the minutiae of our lives) and if we got 'divorced' I would certainly feel the sting.

But like I already said, me giving up my career and financial independence without being married is not an option.

I just worry that even if an unmarried couple make wills in favour of each other, and/or name each other as pension beneficiaries, that's still not quite watertight, as surely both wills and pension documents can be changed without the other party being informed?

I suppose I'm just suspicious of men who have all the benefits of marriage without getting married.

There are no amount of contracts that can put you in the same position as being married. Marriage is unique and cannot be replicated.

As for wills, we should have those whether married or not, its noteworthy though that these can be changed easily without reference to your partner.

If you are looking at marriage as a purely financial transaction then it would be more economic to simply marry than pay for all of those contracts.

We must all make our own decisions as to how we want to conduct our relationships. Your partner doesn't really need to give you any justification either way, him not wanting to be married is enough.

What I am saying is that you must make your decisions based on yours and your sons best interests.

You can say neither should dictate, but when children come along it's not usually an equal scenario anymore. The power balance nearly always shifts in the mans favour, and as I learnt, that can leave you and your dc's very vulnerable if he decides he doesn't fancy having a family anymore!

Incidentally I can understand people not wanting to be married. Its just in this case you are putting yourself into a very vulnerable position.

Married or not I totally believe we need to retain some financial independence. If I divorced next week the one thing I wouldn't have to worry about is paying the mortgage or whether my ex was going to pay enough to buy the kids uniform.

Please make informed choices for you and don't be simply dragged along by what he says and wants.

I just worry that even if an unmarried couple make wills in favour of each other, and/or name each other as pension beneficiaries, that's still not quite watertight, as surely both wills and pension documents can be changed without the other party being informed?

Yes of course. There's no way to legally replicate being married without actually getting married!

But I do trust my partner too!

If I ever didn't trust him then we'd split up and at least half the house would be mine and my career and earning potential would still be intact :)

I would be very clear and ruthless with regard to finances and I would not let dp's career to come first in any circumstances. I have done this as a married woman and no question would I do this as a 'single' woman with a partner that didn't want marriage. I personally would not be a SAHP or take on a different child friendly career (unless that career was my life long ambition), but I am not criticising anyone who is (or does). But if you are or do then make provisions legally to protect you and your child in every circumstance.

OP I really would get myself back on the pgce course and put DS in childcare paid for by both of you. It is a sacrifice initially when you want to spend every second with your child but it may prove a very important decision later on.

Bless you. I would start making plans now to leave. Start researching jobs and price out childcare. Register your DC with a childminder so you can return to work. Speak to your family and see if they can help you.

When you speak to him tell him that your discussions have made it clear he doesn't respect you or your child. That as he cant meet either your or your child's needs you are going to make sure they are met. Give him your address and tell him he is welcome to visit his DC and you don't want things to get nasty, so for the sake of your son you are done.

I hate to say it but don't expect him to come knocking to get married. If he does make it bloody clear that his treatment of you is not acceptable and you want to go to relate to address his commitment issues. Also consider doing the catholic premarital course. My friends have said it was very good for their now DHs.

Agree - changing your name via deed poll to that of the man who won't marry you, is really sad. Why not just double-barrel your DC's names, or give them your own?

OP, you might want to give the Tax Credits hotline a ring and see how much you'd be entitled to, as a single mum earning whatever you earn by yourself. Knowing that figure (and I was a low earner and received £180 a WEEK in TC and had 70% of my childcare costs paid on top) will help you get a more accurate picture of your financial future with your DP. You're assuming you'd be destitute without him - you probably won't.

Sorry, your financial future without your DP

What's sad or wrong about wanting the same name as your DC?

I would've double barrelled but my last name and his really did not go together at all. In either combination.