What would you do if the father of your child would not marry you?

[AvocadoLime]

NCed for this because people I know use MN.

DP and I have been together for 5 years, living together for 4. We rent a house, and have a seven month old son together. DS was a surprise pregnancy after a contraceptive failure, but very much loved and wanted.

I'll be upfront here, I really want to get married. My reasons are:

-I want financial protection for DS and myself. DP is carrying on in his career, I did not have a career established when DS was born, just a degree (I am younger than him) and I am currently doing a course to become a childminder when my MA runs out so that I can work and be with DS (makes sense for childcare reasons, and I want to be at home with him if I can). His earnings will likely be much higher than mine in, say, 5 years time because I will be taking responsibility for most of DS's care. I know people say that it is not romantic to marry for financial reasons, but I have DS to look out for now as well as myself so I feel I need to be pragmatic for his sake.

-There is a chance that DP could get a job outside of the EU one day because of the type of work he does. What then? We may have to live on different continents. He seems to avoid talking about this scenario ("well, we'll talk about that if it ever happens").

-Other areas of legal recognition, if one of us gets sick or dies. We would not be the others next of kin in hospital, we would not be in charge of each other's funeral arrangements and we would not be able to leave things to each other without getting hit by inheritance tax like a married couple.

-I want social recognition that we are a family, both for myself and DS. Currently DS has my last name, I would like us to all have the same name. I don't know what I'll tell DS when he's older about why his parents aren't married like everyone else's, and I certainly don't want him to worry about family stability if it can be avoided. I know that it works for some families who stay unmarried and I'm not trying to be disrespectful towards them, because my issue here most likely comes from the fact that I feel really quite humiliated that the man whose child I have carried and have lived together in a relationship for years does not want to marry me.

-Sentimental reasons. I always imagined that I would get married, and I want to on a deep level. It doesn't have to be a big wedding, we could elope abroad or whatever I'm not bothered, but I feel like it's something I would really regret on my deathbed if I never got married. Like I said above, I feel humiliated that he won't marry me. I really hate saying "my boyfriend", or "my partner". It feels like our relationship is not serious. I even avoid saying "DP" where I can when I am on Mumsnet! I know that sounds a bit silly, but I just feel a huge gut dislike of it and I can't help it.

-A nagging concern I have that the main reason he does not want to get married is to keep me disposable. He refutes this, but one of his reasons for not wanting to get married is that getting divorced is so long and ugly so I feel that this is a reason, he just does not like it being worded back to him so obviously.

(Am I missing any other important reasons? Genuine question).

Although he has made intermittent noises that he is considering it, he does not really want to get married. His reasons are:

-He has bad experiences of marriage. His parents went through a very nasty divorce when he was 10, he was manipulated by one parent into making claims about the other and he was left quite scarred by the experience. He also got married himself in his 20s and got divorced 7 years later. He says that the relationship went downhill straight away after getting married, although they had never lived together before getting married so I don't think that getting married was the only issue there. I try to be as sympathetic towards his past as I can but I also feel uncomfortable that he has lumped me and his ex into one category and assumes it would be the same with me.

-On a, well, philosophical level, I suppose, he says he does not like the concept of a marriage contract. He says that if you love each other then you should not have to have your relationship 'written into law', like you are commodities that belong to one another. He says it would be against his principals to get married.

-Divorce is long and ugly.

-He says he is happy with our relationship the way it is, and he thinks that if we got married we may become complacent toward trying to maintain it.

-He says he would be far less happy being married than I would be to not be married, though I don't see how he could quantify that quite so easily, especially since I tend to bury my negative feelings a lot and have a breezy exterior, whereas he is not like that at all.

(I have noticed on threads like this people always ask if it is the actual wedding ceremony he objects to - this is not DP's issue, he is concerned with being married, not getting married).

Anyway, we have hit upon a stalemate, basically. I don't really know what to do or how to feel about this. Sometimes I feel really quite resentful about him not wanting to get married and suspicious of his motives, and I consider whether or not our relationship has a future. On the other hand, we do have a good relationship (well, apart from this aspect of it which makes me quite unhappy IYSWIM), and I would want our DS to grow up in a two-parent household if possible, I would feel terribly guilty I think for taking that away from him unless there were any major relationship problems like abuse or cheating. Can I have some thoughts? What would you do in this situation? I probably just need to talk through my feelings as much as anything.

I wish there was something I could say to change his mind (suggestions?) but it's probably unlikely if I'm realistic.

Please don't have a go at me, I'm feeling a bit sad about all of this.

What's sad or wrong about wanting the same name as your DC?

I agree with Whatsgoingon - finding out what you are entitled to might surprise you and make you feel more confident if you had to "go it alone".

I have 5 DC with my DP of 27 years and have had no issues with the children worrying about us being unwed. It sounds like you have no real assets yet as a couple - so the financial worries would be further down the line. It is wise to keep up a career in the long term but taking a break for a year or two to be with your DC if that is what you really want to do isn't a problem.

Yes true Goats but not possible in our situation (he has other DCs with his name = sensitive).

I wanted DD to have his name and I'm very happy we all have the same name now.

And I'm also happy that if we split up I don't have to give him half my savings

What Manatee said. And also, this whole childminder thing, most rentals don't allow you to run a business out of them.

You need to go back to work and get a career because when you split you will be financially fucked.

Stop enabling his career by playing the stay at home wifey, because you are not his wife.

Tell him the pair of you need to see a solicitor to get legal protection in place since you are unmarried.

He balks, you know what your answer is.

I think you know, anyhow.

I'd have already left, tbh. Marriage was important to me and I wouldn't have had a child without being married first.

You're quite right petal, wills and pension provisions in the other partner's favour can be unilaterally revoked. But it's better than the intestacy provisions and no pension at all.

I have had it written into our rental contract that I am allowed to child mind from there, so that isn't an issue. The course is nearly finished and I have had some local interest, so that is a near immediate possibility, not a maybe someday type thing. As I said above though, I'm aware it isn't perfect.

Good point about the tax credits, I will definitely look into that. There is so much to consider.

Actually I think the OP should go and get legal protection herself and then tell him to sign on the dotted line. It won't be the one for a wedding/marriage but still a dotted line that will make him RESPONSIBLE in some ways of your financial wellbeing (and yours and his child!). well at least, it will make it clear he should feel responsible for some of it

I wouldn't wait for him to do all the paperwork but take responsibility of your future in your hands and do what needs to be done! Don't wait for him to do that!
Oh and maybe look at going back to a job that will make you actually financially independent. I promise you that if the day comes when you do need to be, you will relieve that you don't have to find any odd job that you can find to put a roof over your head.
And put some rules re savings (so you can build up a pot just as he can as he has higher wage), similar assets together etc... and similar spending money too.

If he doesn't like it, tell him that you want the finacial safety coming from a marriage for yu and your child and therefore, you HAVE to make it happen that way now. (Of course, he could just accept to get married....)

I have to say I'm struggling to see her DP pov. He does realise that, even if you are not married, you have a child together so a separation will be just as hard does he?

Errr may I point out that relying of tax credit isn't a good idea?
Sure enough in the short term, it helps. But what happens when your child is over 18yo? What happens if you separate when the child is 17yo and you still have spent your life living as 'a wife' enabling his career but having no financial protection at all?

The issue here isn't just what would happen in the next 5 years. There is a much longer term issue here.

i would ask to live separately, even if you two are still in a relationship. if he is not willing to make 100% commitment, then it would be one less person to care for (like laundry and cooking) if you two went separate ways.

That's crazy Bluberry. The OP doesn't have any income.

And presumably they still love each other and want to be together albeit unmarried?

sorry, I don't know what else to say other than she'll have to accept this is how he feels.

For goodness sake don't be a childminder.
Its a tough enough job even if you love it and your dream job is looking after other peoples kids but you just want something that gives you an income and solves your childcare problem.
If you decide to get into the job market in the future you'll will be viewed as someone who has taken years out to stay at home, they won't see you as a business woman or anything even close.
Either further your education or get out there and get your career going.
Personally I couldn't stand to stay with and have a child with a man who didn't want to marry me..
I'd be gone.
Unfortunately you've left it all a bit late , youve very little bargaining power left apart from leaving
He already has everything doesn't he? He should be overjoyed at the idea of being your husband instead of making all these half assed excuses.
How bloody special & cherished do you feel? Not much
You're missing out on married life with someone that loves you and care about the things that are important to you.

'And presumably they still love each other and want to be together albeit unmarried?'

She wants to be married. Being a childminder whilst he goes about making big bucks and staying umarried would be very, very foolish of her. Love goes down the swanny over the years in situations like this. So many women sleepwalk into this situation and find themselves on here, asking about benefits and places to live with sweet FA because they didn't marry.

I know you want to stay at home, OP, but unfortunately, since you had a child with a man like this, it's a foolish option for your own financial well-being.

My dp has never wanted to get married he's in his 50's now. We have a dc together and jointly own a property. Last year we were expecting dc2 which we sadly lost.

I started to feel very vulnerable even though I have a great career be it part time now. He is a high earner. When 2nd dc was in way I said I wanted same security marriage brings....financially etc. we had a cohabitation agreement written up....not the most romantic 'marriage' but feel more secure these days.

I'd see it like this: if I get away from this person, then I have a chance to meet someone more in line with what I need and want and have further children with someone who values marriage as I do.

Don't fall for the Fallacy of Sunken Costs.

I'd start making plans to leave, tbh.

You've had much better advise than me.
But I'm unmarried and a sahm, if I leave the level of disruption to the kids would be huge. We'd move, new school, I'd find a job (shit pay probably) and they'd be in childcare.
Ive had reason to go, I've not mainly for that.

I can set your mind at rest about the unmarried and different surname. Mine have never questioned it or thought it odd and I live in an area where people marry young and stay married.

I agree he should acknowledge that he is benefitting from the OP being in a very vulnerable situation.

The protection offered by marriage means people in OP's position can make the career sacrifices and compromises and have them recognised in a split settlement.

If he won't recognise those sacrifices and compromises in terms of protecting you financially, then don't make them.

I would not make tax credits part of my plans if I could avoid it, and certainly not without a long term plan to get off them. Not the way things are going. With the possible exception of childcare tax credits, which are by their nature very temporary and allow you to gain work experience that you can use to move towards self sufficiency. It's one thing if you have no choice, or no way to have a child without them. But if you can avoid using top up benefits, that would be more sensible.

The childminding business really is a bad idea. I know you have invested in the course and it is nearly finished, but do not throw good effort after bad. Accept that the landscape has changed and staying at home with ds is a risky business. You cannot afford to be the one who provides childcare while dp carries on earning money and making pension contributions that will not be shared with you.

Re-enroll on the PGCE and get your career started asap. You can find places even this late in the year. Start with the uni that accepted you the first time. Teaching will pay a real salary with pension rights and plenty of opportunities for advancement.

Rather than setting up a childminding business, look around at the childcare options open to you as a working mum. DP will have to be part of the childcare plan.

Your post, OP on the first page at 21:28 concerning his job opportunities/possibilities overseas...so let me get this right: he tells you about the possibility of his job potentially being moved out of your present country; and then he refuses to discuss how this would be handled regarding your relationship. He brought it up-then he won't talk about it. That is a control tactic. He is controlling you to maintain the high standard of care (attention to him) you are presently putting into his relationship. Wouldn't' t this be considered a form of emotional abuse? ...That he may leave the relationship at any time being held over your head?

His parameters for his relationship...You (and now your ds) are more like props for his relationship, from the sound of it. In all of your posts regarding ds, you always described him as being your ds, not "our" ds or even describing potential support payments for "his" ds. Does he see ds as a real person, or just another potential liability the way he sees you ? Sorry that sounds harsh, but he does come across as self-centered.

I agree with obtaining and maintaining financial independence for yourself and ds. When you shift your attention off of him so much, I predict that will be a deal breaker for him. You may want to play the long game and prepare for an eventual breakup...just in case.

The humiliation you have mentioned several times is your gut speaking. Sometimes finding the exact right words is difficult, but the feeling is there that his attitude toward you is not right. He won't reciprocate sacrifices because he is ultimately using you for "family" life without it actually being a legal family...You are just living parallel lives as long as it suits him as long as you toe the line.

And, btw, the condition of "stalemate" on this one issue (it is actually a mega-conglomeration of issues) is a win on his side. Avoiding talking about it is a win for him. Making you feel you are unable to articulate your feelings in the moment is a win for him. Thinking about it "later" is a win for him. If it is not a "yes" then it is a "no" (no matter what form of dismissiveness has been used).

If you split up, financially, he's only responsible for child maitenance. You should be financially independent, especially now that you have a child. Divorce, marriage or not, you should not give up your earning power. Spousal support is rare. The both of you can put money towards child care while both of you work.

He might balk at having a will giving you everything. However, he should have a will and insurance to provide for your child in case he passes away.

I aslo agree that he should transfer money into an account outside of living expenses for your personal use while you are staying home to watch DS.

During the period in which you aren't earning, I think he can contribute a certain amount to a pension for you. Might be worth checking into.

But...some people just don't want to marry. It doesn't mean he's trying to keep you in a vulnerable position. I know so many of my generation who are living together, then having a child, then marrying a few years later. Mainly because the bloke doesn't see the necessity (the women usually do) and it takes them a while to realise it's better for the children's security.

Putting on the pressure might have a negative affect. Slowly drip feeding why marriage is financially good, then allowing him to think it's his idea is the way forward. A few 'innocent' conversations about how someone passed away and the gf was left with nothing because no will and only commonlaw might be useful. Then he can assimiliate the info and make a choice.

I wonder if there are any ways of securing your finances as a couple without marriage, just in case he is adamant he doesn't want it...