DH "not on board" with 4th pregnancy, please share advice with me

[MrsMcJnr]

I need some advice on how to handle a difficult situation please. I am pregnant with a fourth, unplanned baby. My DH and I have been together for 15 years, married for 9 and have 3 beautiful children aged 7, 5 and 3. I do not work outside of the house at the moment and so DH is the sole bread winner. I have made no secret of the fact that I always wanted four children but as DH did not want another after our 3rd, I embraced what I had happily and thought my baby days were over. Clearly fate had other ideas. I have issues with hormonal contraception so we use barrier methods but they must have failed. We have also had several miscarriages and so 6 weeks (which is where I am now) is a very scary and emotional time for me.
I want to keep this baby. I have no ability to consider not having it. DH has typed a document entitled “Considerations about another child” and it contains 5 pages of arguments as to why we should not have a 4th child. It has been going between us for days with arguments back and forth in writing (which is better than verbally as it would turn into a stand off) and it breaks my heart when I read it. I feel like screaming that a point that might be relevant in a discussion whether or not to try for a 4th child is not when the child is already on board. He is basically saying he thinks it makes sense to abort and that that is justified based on his points (which generally relate to money and the lack of). I have told him that for me that is not an option.
We haven´t spoken about it for a few days. I know he is still in shock. As am I. I know it won´t be easy but I do believe I have my eyes open. Some days he makes encouraging comments like, maybe I should book in for the snip when you are 20 weeks so that that is not something else to consider when we have a new baby and that we´ll need a bigger sofa but other days he says things like, don´t take my silence as being on board, I have thought of more arguments for my list.
What I really want is for him to get on board. I don´t know how to reach that position or if it is possible. I do know that to make any other decision on the fate of this baby would leave me resentful forever and we would probably end up breaking up over it. I don´t know if he can get on board and embrace this without resenting me. If it were just me to consider I probably would be strong enough to say the choice is between staying and supporting me or going and not between terminating or keeping but we do essentially have a very happy family life, we love each other and most importantly we love the three kids we have and I do not want to break up their home because I have selfishly protected a fourth child. Does that make any sense?
DH and I are both volatile people. I tend to get what I want in life but then I have always worked very hard to make sure I have got it. That doesn´t apply to this other than from the perspective that he sees me as nearly always getting my way and he sees this an example of me winning and him losing. I cannot let the life of a child be seen in those terms and therefore I am avoiding confrontation and focusing on being healthy and looking after myself and the baby and hoping that one day soon he will magically be excited as I am.
Please give me any advice you have, especially if you have been in this position, what changed his mind? Is there a way to make it clear that I want the baby without it seeming like I am disregarding his feelings? Help!

Off it's not that we need to be told Offred, that is not really what I was driving at, as I am sure you know. It's just unrealistic and impractical to tell men that every single time they have sex they must be prepared that BC may fail and they may become a father and if they are not prepared to take that risk they should abstain or get vasectomies. We don't say the same thing to women, do we? Women are of course aware their BC may fail but they know they have choices beyond that, that men do not have.

No-one has yet bothered to develop better BC for men, which just perpetuates the lack of choice and control they have over their own fertility so even though they are the ones who have fewer choices re: abortion etc, still no-one bothers - it's just 'abstain or get sterilised.'

Imagine if every man did start abstaining (which is also called withholding sex remember, and is often seen as a form of emotional abuse on MN) or start overruling their partners and having vasectomies left right and centre without any consultation or thought to their partners feelings on the matter? Women would be beside themselves with fury and grief and frustration! it would be seen as men being massively, massively controlling.I remember a thread on here where loads and loads of women said they'd be really annoyed and insulted if their DPs started using condoms as a way of doubling up, if they were already on the pill!

Ergo, it's just a pointless thing to say to a man. As far as he was concerned they were using BC. You can't ask more of him than that.

We don't say the same thing to women, do we?

Who is this 'we'? I would certainly say the same to a woman who did not want to get pregnant.

Well apart from perhaps strictly practising Roman Catholics, in general we don't say it to women. Women are not expected to abstain from sex as a way of making sure they don't get PG. That attitude kind of stopped around the 1950's I believe yet I hear it said all the bloody time on MN in reference to men.

It's just unrealistic and impractical to tell men that every single time they have sex they must be prepared that BC may fail and they may become a father and if they are not prepared to take that risk they should abstain or get vasectomies. We don't say the same thing to women, do we? Women are of course aware their BC may fail but they know they have choices beyond that, that men do not have.

Once again, this is exactly what we say to women, because if a woman has PIV sex and her contraception fails, she absolutely will be left dealing with the physical consequences and she's shit out of luck if she doesn't like it. She will be pregnant, which is in itself more dangerous than not being pregnant, and will have either a miscarriage, an abortion or a birth. All of which are typically painful, and carry health risks in themselves.

Women do indeed have choices that men don't, in that they can decide whether to have a termination or not, but they don't have a choice about whether to deal with the physical consequences of pregnancy once sperm has met egg. Men also have choices that women don't, in that it's possible for them to entirely disassociate themselves from the outcome if they so wish.

What it boils down to is this: if you have PIV sex with someone you aren't certain is infertile (ie someone who doesn't have all the necessary equipment to reproduce) you are taking the risk of undesired pregnancy. This is true for both men and women. Consenting to sex but not to sperm and egg meeting is not a thing, for either sex. The consequences for both sexes are, of course, different. Both have choices that the other doesn't. That's Mother Nature for you.

If you don't think this gets said to women on MN, read more threads.

Normally I would never tell anybody what to do but in this case you should not abort. You don't want to and there are no really strong reasons to so don't.
Given that, I really do think your dh will come round. He didn't want four, you didn't try for a fourth but it happened anyway. He can see some positives and once you pass the first trimester and have a scan and rule out termination I'm sure he'll be able to come round, just like you were able to come round to stopping at three.
But for goodness sake get him to get snipped ASAP.

There are numerous threads on Mumsnet saying I found myself pregnant. Women of childbearing age must wake up and realise that every time they have sex they run the risk of getting pregnant. Until they do this problem won't be solved. But if you point this out to anybody who says not my fault it's a contraceptive failure then posters are down like a ton of bricks.

I feel sorry for your dh.

You have got three children.

FGS what was wrong with writing a letter? When women come on here with a difficult problem in their relationship, they often asked if it would help them to write a letter?

i think there needs to be a major public campaign aimed at men, 'It takes two to make a baby', urging them to take responsibility for their own reproductive choices at all points in their lives. Condoms, vasectomies, abstention should be as much a part of their lives and discussions as contraception is for women.

The message should be loud and clear to men that every time you have sex a baby might be conceived and you need to be bloody clear about whether this is an option for you or not because, like it or not, once conceived it is no longer your decision whether or not you become a parent/have another child.

Judging by the number of threads with men not wanting pregnancies the message to be responsible for themselves is not getting through to a significant number. A bit of sex ed at school doesn't seem to be cutting it.

I hope it works out for you OP. I had an unplanned pregnancy and a reluctant DH, the difference being that we both knew we'd been reckless at the time. We totally disagreed about continuing with the pregnancy though. I wasn't under any pressure from him but our family very very nearly fell apart under the stress during the first year while he 'came around'. It was very hard for him to have his life kept in baby mode and I understood that but amongst the tiredness and disruption there was alot of resentment from both of us.

He made his choice when he chose to have sex without having the snip first.

He has to take responsibility for his actions.

The time to 'decide' has passed. This pregnancy is here now. He has to man up and follow through.

Women are not expected to abstain from sex as a way of making sure they don't get PG.

There is no difference between men and women. If you have sex you know that you run the risk of pregnancy (unless you are sterlised). That's it.

That is, after all, how you make a baby, so doing the thing you do to make a baby should not surprise you if it results in a baby being made.

Contraception minimises the risk. Doubling up on contraception minimises it even more. Double contraception and careful timing (time of month, withdrawal) would minimise it again. But even then, it's possible.

keep your child. it is still your body, but in the meanwhile, he should get a vasectomy if he is so set on not having an another child.

My heart goes out to you - what a horrible position to be in.
I don't think either of you are BU - you both have equally valid points.
However, you have the deciding vote because it is your body.
Just hope that once he holds no.4 he will fall in love and life will return to normal.

It take two to make a baby. Man is responsible where he "spread his seeds" -don't know how else to term it- once he share it, it is hers to deal with.

I really don't see any point to a discussion about birth control. It did not work. It happens. She did not plan the baby any more than he did.

There is a 4th baby. OP knows her own mind and she chooses not to terminate. It is her decision to make. Her DP is being heartless to present her with a 5 page list of reasons to abort and to carry on punishing her, knowing that she wants the baby, is worried about miscarriage and is NOT going to abort.

He can present her with a 5 page list of his worries about having a 4th baby, but only in the context that there is now a 4th baby and they need to figure out how to deal with it together.

There is no difference between men and women. If you have sex you know that you run the risk of pregnancy (unless you are sterlised). That's it.

A Woman has the diaphragm, the pill, the patch, the coil, the condom she can insist on, the implant, the injections, and the natural rhythm method based on her monthly cycle. If her chosen method fails she has the MAP and if that fails she has the abortion and if that doesn't happen for whatever reason she has the baby and then she chooses whether to keep it or have it adopted.

Men can only ever take her word for it that all/any of the above are being used correctly, or indeed at all.

The man has the condom. That's it. The woman knows whether he is using it, or not using it. Nothing needs to be taken on trust. Loads of women say they hate condoms or are allergic to them and there is quite a lot of pressure put on men to ditch them once the relationship becomes exclusive/long term, whereas I don't see many men pressuring women to come off their chosen method of BC in order to let him take care of it all with condoms.

I do not think you can really say that where BC choices are concerned, there is no difference between men and women.

Look I am not saying that men do not need to be aware of the possible outcomes and how that impacts on them and their responsibilities, but I do think someone should hurry up and give men better choice of birth control. Otherwise, (in one of those 'be careful what you wish for' type scenarios) if men really did start taking responsibility for their own fertility we might find in the future that they routinely have their sperm frozen and then get sterilised, meaning that any woman wanting to have their children will be forced to undergo IVF in order to be impregnated by him.

Apologies for the hijack, OP. no more on that subject now.

"It's not that we need to be told" well yes, that's my point precisely. A ridiculous number of men DO seem to need to be told!

so, the op says she always wanted four children, always gets what she wants, and can't use hormonal contraception therefore dh was responsible for contraception which he duly used. And then the op falls pregnant unexpectedly, no split condom then? and still it's all the dh's fault because he didn't abstain or have a vasectomy? really?

Ultimately the op is now pregnant and doesn't want a termination. but given she was seemingly perfectly happy to fall pregnant again that's hardly surprising is it?

Just because someone has a contraceptive failure doesn't mean they have to be over the moon about becoming a parent. people have contraception to, you know, prevent pregnancy. And for the most part that works just fine. And when it doesn't there are other options.

But it's much easier for the op to not use contraception and then blame her dh when she falls pregnant with a wanted baby eh.

I feel sorry for him. He sounds like a decent bloke who will probably step up for his child. but if I were him I would be wondering about a contraceptive failure when there was no evidence of a split condom and he had been taking responsibility for contraception.

And although those are all choices available to women many women may only be able to use condoms. If I really couldn't take hormones for example I wouldn't be able to have the copper coil either because I have been sexually abused and the whole thing is too traumatic for me to go through with it.

It's not all the dh's fault. It's that if he really really didn't want anymore and knew his wife did the sensible decision would be vasectomy for him. The whole point of that is that he needs to see that the pregnancy is not something the op is doing to him but something that has happened to both of them.

so, the op says she always wanted four children, always gets what she wants, and can't use hormonal contraception therefore dh was responsible for contraception which he duly used. And then the op falls pregnant unexpectedly, no split condom then? hmm and still it's all the dh's fault because he didn't abstain or have a vasectomy? really? hmm ---- if he is DEAD set of not having another kid, I don't know what is stopping him from getting one?

It's both of their 'faults', based on what OP has said. And to be clear wannabe, what exactly are you suggesting with your 'no split condom then' line?

The man has the condom. That's it.

The man also has the choice to not ejaculate inside a woman.

so, if a man doesn't want children then he should abstain or be sterilised. Anything else is just tough shit then....?

So, imagine that a poster comes on here and posts:

"I have met a lovely man, we've been together for about six months but haven't yet slept together. I really want to, I am on the pill and have even suggested that he use condoms as well but he says that he's not ready to be a father, and so until such time as he is prepared to be a father he is happy to abstain from sex." Do people really think that the mn masses would come out and say "he is being totally reasonable, if he doesn't want to have sex unless he is prepared to have a baby then that is a perfectly ok thing to do, give him as long as it takes because you are unreasonable to want to have sex with him given he doesn't want children yet." no didn't think so.