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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

At my wits end re. fiancé and housework (long, sorry)

718 replies

Fedupwithmess · 20/02/2015 17:33

Name changed for this, as OH knows MN name, but I am a regular. I apologise in advance for the extremely long post, I just really need to get this off my chest.

Been with OH 3.5 years. Wedding booked for this autumn. Both mid thirties. From the word go, we really “got” each other, had buckets of chemistry and loads of shared interests. We make each other laugh have a good social life both together and separately and are never short on conversation. He is sensible with money, emotionally stable, hates conflict has never been mistrustful or controlling. Lucky me, right?

He is also infuriatingly messy and scatter-brained. I am naturally tidy and organised, and I knew full well when he moved into the house I own 2 years ago that realistically there would be some friction, but it’s got to the point where it’s really wearing me down. It’s like I have to micromanage everything, or it never gets done.

For example, if I don’t remind him it’s bin day, the bin never gets put out, or I end up doing it myself as I just can’t be bothered to remind him a dozen times before he actually does it.
Last month he painted the garden fence and the tin and brush are still out there in the garden getting rained on every day. I keep asking him to bring it in, but he keeps “forgetting”. Ditto with turning the TV off after he’s finished watching it, making the bed when he’s last out of it, changing the toilet roll when he’s used the last of it, removing hair from the plughole after he’s had a bath…

I do the laundry, but only iron my own clothes. He can’t be bothered to iron his, so I leave it in a pile for him to hang up, but he never does and it’s there for days on end, me constantly reminding him to do it, him saying he will, then forgetting. His boss at work reprimanded him because he was such a scruffy state, but even since then he’s refusing to iron his shirts or polish his shoes – he remains insistent that it’s not a priority. I was so worried about him losing his job at one point, that I started doing this for him, hoping it would guilt trip him into doing it himself, but instead of this or even saying thank you, he just said that I was wasting my time!

The other day I asked him to hang a sweater of mine to dry (ie: on a hanger in the utility room). He simply hung it over the door, so it ended up misshapen, then proceeded to smoke in the room, so it stank! Don’t even get me started on the smoking…at first I said fine as long as it’s in the garden, then it was on the back step, then it was in the kitchen with the door constantly wide open, come rain, shine or artic temperatures. I got very upset about this on Monday and now the smoking has moved outside again (he claims he wants to quit and he hates the habit, but that’s another story) There is an ashtray in the garden, but rather than using it, he just throws the fag ends arbitrarily in the garden. I pulled him up on this yesterday and he made some halfhearted apology, but when I went down there again this morning, he’d done exactly the same thing!

Every new item of clothing he has had since we have been together I have bought and paid for because he’s not remotely bothered about his appearance, to the point where he would quite happily walk around with holes in his shoes and trousers. He said he was extremely grateful for the clothes, but still in his eyes they weren’t a priority (He earns good money, it’s not like he can’t afford new clothes) He’s constantly leaving pens in his pockets and I do my best to check them before they go in the washing machine, but not long ago he snuck a pair of trousers in at the last minute and when I took the laundry out at the end EVERYTHING had been covered in permanent marker, including an expensive dress I had only worn once!!

He’ll wash up and hoover if I ask him, but never to the standard I do it, ie: he never rinses the sink so there is always food stuck in the plughole and he never hoovers properly in the corners. I don’t moan about this, because at least doing something is better than nothing. Beyond that, he never notices other cleaning jobs that need doing, so it’s always me that keeps on top of things, not to mention being the only one who notices when household stuff needs replacing and cupboards need tidying.

Admittedly, he is a fantastic cook and will cook perhaps 1-2 times per week. I cook the rest of the time which I don’t mind, as I enjoy cooking and he works longer hours than I do. I am also responsible for all meal planning and buying of food, which again I don’t especially mind, because it means that I get to choose what I want!

He is a highly intelligent man (admittedly more in an intellectual way than a pragmatic way) and he has no problem retaining information relating to other facets of his life, it’s as if it’s in one ear and out the other when it comes to domestic tasks because he places no importance on them. It’s not like he’s a mummy’s boy who’s never had to fend for himself either – he comes from a large family with parents who always encouraged him to stand on his own two feet and he had lived away from home for well over 10 years before he moved in with me. The majority of that time he spent in a shared house, living with women who have now become some of my closest friends. They didn’t mollycoddle him either and apparently used to despair at they mess he made and his lack of common sense. They have nothing but praise for him in every other aspect of his nature though – they see him as their loyal, caring and valued friend.

I have tried to talk to him countless times about how his sloth makes me feel and the impact that it’s having on our otherwise fantastic relationship – I have told him that it’s eroding the love I have for him and what’s more, it’s completely unnecessary as if only he helped a bit more I wouldn’t have to spend my time nagging him – I hate nagging as much as he hates being nagged! I said to him that even if having a clean, tidy, ordered home is not a priority to him in the way it is to me, if he respected me, he would make an effort for my sake. He keeps saying he will (and indeed extends a great deal of respect to me in every other facet of our relationship) but the effort is always incredibly short lived. I tried the trick of stopping doing anything for him and he didn’t even notice, it just drove me nuts! He claims that he hates being micromanaged and that he just wants to be his own person. He seemed to be under the impression that I actually enjoyed being some sort of bloody site foreman!

I suppose the issue of our domestic compatibility is weighing heavier on my mind than usual because of our imminent wedding. I can’t stress how much in EVERY other respect I couldn’t ask for a more compatible partner an at 36 and wanting kids I certainly wouldn’t want to start all over again, but now I’m starting to imagine a life with him post wedding with children of our own. Surely the strain of our domestic situation will only get worse, given the chaos that small children can cause. I fear this issue might encroach on the other otherwise happy areas of our life to the extent where it damages our relationship irreparably. I know it sounds horribly calculating, but I am the one with all the finances assets in our relationship, so I certainly don’t want to be going through a divorce 5 years down the line.

What is your take on my situation? Am I being overly fussy and petty? How do you cope if you have a DH who doesn’t pull him weight domestically? Would this be a deal breaker for you if the relationship was otherwise great? How the hell do I move forward with this issue?

OP posts:
rosepetalsoup · 20/02/2015 19:01

Ha! I like Cogito's advice.

When his looks start to fade and he hits middle age he will start to care how he looks. Also if he actually wants to progress at work. The scruffy genius thing is ok in your 20s, forgivable early 30s but after that is just unprofessional. Buy him pants and clothes for xmas, and use his salary to pay for a cleaner. Who irons.

ThatBloodyWoman · 20/02/2015 19:08

I certainly wouldn't start doing the oil change in the car because dh finds the car important.
And it is important,because he uses it for work and to get the family shopping etc.
I'm not disrespecting him or lazy because I don't do it.
I do things I'm better at instead.

If the ops fiance was doing bugger all it'd be different.
But he is doing stuff,just not stuff the op prioritises.

Regardless,its what works in each individual relationship.
The op came on to ask for opinions!

I,faced with someone 99% compatible would start looking for tolerance and middle ground.
Without that I don't think many relationships stand a chance.

TheBug · 20/02/2015 19:17

cailin's thing about the knife on the counter. That.

All the signs were there but it was only when DC1 appeared that I understood just how incompatible we are.

The constant frustration has marred my enjoyment of the DCs infant years and I feel very bitter about that.

And is it ever a total passion killer.

If I knew then what I know now I'd have walked away. Now I'm so worn down I feel trapped.

Think very carefully about what you're able to tolerate, OP, and don't be me in five years time.

cailindana · 20/02/2015 19:17

Oh dear, Bug, are you ok? Do you have a thread on the go?

expatinscotland · 20/02/2015 19:18

It would be easier to have a baby alone. He may well end up unemployed, smoking all day. A very expensive pet.

googoodolly · 20/02/2015 19:21

It's not a laziness thing, it's a disrespect thing.

One of the things that attracted me to DP was the fact that he could look after himself. He vacuumed, cleaned up after himself, did his laundry, made the bed - basic things, sure, but a big deal when you're living with someone. I think being compatible is really important and housework is an aspect where you need to get on with someone.

I couldn't date someone who left housework sitting around. I mean, a cup on a table for a few hours is one thing, but people who ignore the dishes or leave crumbs everywhere or leave clothes dumped in piles drive me nuts. It's not hard to take five minutes and put things away, especially when there are no DC involved.

If it grates now, it'll drive you NUTS when you're married with a baby. Babies create a LOT of mess - dishes, laundry, etc. and you'll end up really fucked off if you're stuck doing it all, ESPECIALLY if you go back to work.

Think long and hard about this one, OP.

lavenderhoney · 20/02/2015 19:23

He doesn't want to change, so what's his solution? He can't just shrug his shoulders ( ie you do it)

He sounds more like he has an idea that he's a genius ( which you think too) and he gets to behave like a slob " mind on higher things" I see. And yours is ok for cleaning etc. so he gets free time and you don't, because you're cleaning. He doesn't give a damm about wasting your life on this.

How long have you lived together? You're already aware his job is in danger. How did you find out? And how is that now your problem?

Get a cleaner he pays for by all means, but he will just sit back and let you still manage things. You can possibly put up with this shit if he is a very high earner and you can hire help, and want to. However, he's already been yanked about his personal hygiene. This does not bode well.

scallopsrgreat · 20/02/2015 19:24

I can't believe people are sticking up for this guy and dismissing his disregard with calls of a cleaner! Who is going to have to source, pay, organise the cleaner and then do all the other jobs the cleaner won't be doing? It won't be him. I am not a particularly tidy person but I don't kid myself it's innate. It's selfish and lazy. And I've improved over the years (especially since having kids plus I was no where near as bad as this guy).

But what I never had which this guy has, is the attitude that it is someone else's problem. Not taking responsibility or ownership for jobs to be done around the house is a serious attitude problem. And they are very hard to change.

And this will get worse, not better when you have children. If he won't even take responsibility for putting the bins out (which lets face it is fuck all responsibility) then he is going to be quite happy abdicating responsibility for a child onto his partner. He is still a child himself after all Hmm.

This isn't a compatibility problem. It is a problem with his attitude and who he believes is responsible for the household tasks i.e. Not him.

ImBatDog · 20/02/2015 19:24

the thing is, its a passion killer the other way.. in our case, DH's insistence on the house being tidy actually bordered on emotional abuse, because he'd come home and shout, belittle and yell at me because something was left not done to his satisfaction.

i turned into a nervous wreck who'd spend an hour going from room to room trying to make sure everything was tidy/clean/perfect for him, and he's STILL find something amiss that he'd yell at me about... it wouldn't have mattered if the house sparkled, if i'd left one toy out of the toy box when he got in from work my life would have been made hell over it because it wasnt how HE liked HIS house.

i actually left him because of it.. that level of CONTROLLING behaviour is abuse. Me going back to him and our compromise over the house these days was hard fought for through counselling.

So.. really, seriously, if you cannot compromise and work together, one of you is going to end up miserable, or possibly both of you.

scallopsrgreat · 20/02/2015 19:27

"It's not a laziness thing, it's a disrespect thing." Yes this.

And he doesn't want to change and is making no effort to do so.

This will get bigger and bigger. And you'll no longer have respect for him.

Quangle · 20/02/2015 19:29

I don't think it sounds insurmountable. I do think you sound quite demanding in your standards and I'm not sure Id live up to all of them and my house looks pretty decent most of the time. The fag butt throwing I wouldn't like but the rest is mainly your idea of right versus his. If you went to look in my sink now you'd find some coffee grounds and maybe a few crumbs from breakfast. I don't always rinse it clean every time I've used it - I do it once a day or more if I'm using the kitchen a lot. You might think that's awful but I've never found it to be a problem. As for not hoovering "properly" in corners....I'm not sure if I'd pass or not.

I think you need a cleaner and some thinking about why you think your way of hoovering is so fundamental to life that it's worth throwing everything else away for. Yes this is important but you can get a cleaner and probably should for the sake of your sanity.

Ps I often leave my bedroom radio on all day. I'm not sure why but I quite like it. If you really wanted me to turn it off I would so it's not in his favour that he doesn't but I wouldn't really understand why you cared about it.

scallopsrgreat · 20/02/2015 19:29

Yes that is abuse ImBatDog. But the OP isn't doing that. She just wants him to pull his weight which it sounds like you were already doing.

ImBatDog · 20/02/2015 19:31

yes i know scallops, my point that i was trying to make was that if you're so mismatched that one is nagging and the other is unhappy, you have to be careful the nagging doesn't trip over to controlling behaviour... because that is just as destructive as the OP's DP's complete lack of doing anything.

Fedupwithmess · 20/02/2015 19:32

Thanks for all your responses. I’ve only had a chance to read the first half of them so far, but I will do my best to answer your questions and then come back and read the rest…

Melon Yes he does wash up after I cook (although I do have to prompt him half the time). He has a highly pressured job and often brings that work home with him in the evenings, so I honestly don’t mind cooking 5-6 nights per week. It’s not like he expects me to and he doesn’t have a huge appetite so would be quite happy with toast himself, it’s me who values a home cooked meal every day.
As for the dress, no he didn’t apologise, because he was insistent that he didn’t put his trousers which contained the permanent marker in the wash and I must have done it, which begs the question as to why he didn’t put dirty trousers in the wash in the first place! (And I’m certain it wasn’t my error, btw)

Getting into a situation where I’m like his mum is totally NOT sexy, I agree. (Technically not HIS mum though, because as I mentioned earlier, she wasn’t the type to fuss over him, nor does he crave that) Fortunately at present I am still extremely sexually attracted to him….obviously I don’t want that to wane.
Thing is, he isn’t looking for a mummy or someone to make a cosy little home life for him, nor does he expect anything of that nature from me. If I slobbed about as much as he did he honestly wouldn’t be bothered, because it’s not important to him!!

This brings me on to Annarose’s question.
“Have you tried actually going nuclear? I know you felt you've nagged, but have you actually had a big proper row?” A couple of times I’ve done this, yes, but it takes a lot for me to lose my rag, and by that point I’m so exasperated my words come out wrong, ie: shouting that he’s acting like a child, which he takes great objection to. It never escalates further than that because he simply gets up and walks out the house! He DETESTS confrontation and I fear pursuing that route further might do more harm than good.

Thatbloodywoman Yes I love him very much. I handle our joint finances simply because the house is in my name and all the bills came out of my account since before I met him. He pays enough into my account to pay for half of these each month and this is the way I like it – I suppose you might call me a control freak in that respect, but he has no objections to it. As for the garden, my lovely parents do it (he will cut the grass when they bring the lawn mower over) but they do all the planting, maintenance, etc. I have told them we don’t need them to do this, but they love gardening and won’t hear otherwise. I’m not sure what else there is for OH to take on other than housework, because we don’t own a car…

Cheese “Can you really live the rest of your life like that? It will kill your love for him.” This is precisely what I’m worried about. I think when we don’t have wedding expenses he would consider paying towards a cleaner, but not someone to do the ironing because of course (according to him) ironing is unnecessary!

The thing is, I don’t actually mind housework at all, it’s just the sheer amount of time it takes up!

Cog I did have to laugh about finding his head battered in with the Dyson attachment (don’t even get me started on how he never puts the Dyson away properly!) Believe me, I have toyed with the idea of getting him a shed! In our current house, there isn’t room for him to have a designated man cave. We’ve talked about buying something a little bigger in the future and one of the things he wants is a room that’s solely his where he can make as much mess as he wants and where I’m not constantly tidying things away.

Treacle “Have you told him that this is a big enough issue for you to consider ending the relationship?” No, I haven’t, because I’m not totally sure whether it is a deal breaker, hence posting on here. Once you’ve said something like that you can’t take it back and then if they don’t change and you don’t leave, you only look weak.

PurplewithRed Postponing the wedding isn’t really an option – we would lose an eye wateringly large amount of money if we did that. So much so they we would never be able to afford to plan another wedding. I’d only halt the wedding plans if I was calling it all off full stop.

99redballoons* Oh dear, sorry to hear that you got married and it got worse…my OH like your DH totally underestimates how much work it takes to keep a house clean. I actually started making a log of everything I did every day, but he told me I was being “anal”. Grrr….

Bimandbam “Has he ever lived by himself?” He backpacked around the world for a year by himself and then lived in a shared house for 10 years. He’s never lived with a partner before. If I were a SAHM, then I would happily pick up the slack around the house. The reality is that I’ve just completed PhD, so while I’ve been at home more than he has, I’ve still had a demanding workload and now that I’m looking for a full time job outside of the home, there’s no way I’ll be able to devote so many hours to housework.

Delphinium I’m glad that coming on Mumsnet helped change your DH’s perception. However, my OH has the perception that MNers are a bunch of LTB man-hating harridans and when I previously mentioned that I’d started a thread about him (not even an uncomplimentary one), he got seriously pissed off, hence name change this time!!

OP posts:
TheBug · 20/02/2015 19:35

When his looks start to fade and he hits middle age he will start to care how he looks.

Wouldn't bet on it.

DP is still really handsome, but lets himself down with his lack of regard for some basic, easy-win grooming. It makes me sad that he doesn't care to make the best of himself.

I want to be attractive for him but he makes me feel like any effort I make is pointless, an he clearly doesn't want to impress me, even a little bit.

So much for things between us, but it also matters to me where DCs are concerned, for example, Parents' Evening. God, tragic, isn't it?

OP, if this stuff matters to you, issue an ultimatum and expect significant and sustained change before you commit.

Quangle · 20/02/2015 19:36

I also don't iron or make the bed but I am a single parent and work FT so not through laziness - through sheer lack of time and lack of need.

The OPs partner though does paint fences, cook, Hoover and wash up though the latter not well enough.

cailindana · 20/02/2015 19:37

So if you lose your rag, he walks out. He calls you "anal" for trying to show him how much you do. You handle all the finances. He takes no responsibility for anything. You're already planning on him having a man-cave (ie him taking up more space and being more selfish) when you move to a new house.

I can see where this is going. I think you'll marry him and regret it.

BrandNewIggi · 20/02/2015 19:38

Agree with Scallops this will get much worse if you have dcs - in a way you already have one.
He sounds a lot like my dh who I will not be divorcing but oh god I wish I'd laid the law down before we had children.

Hughfearnley · 20/02/2015 19:38

I'm married to one of these. He's by far the loveliest man I have ever met but he is incapable of ever tidying up or putting anything away. I'm unfortunately a neat freak and everything has its place.
We had a tough time recently after we moved house as the combination of not having a system in place, a one year old and his ability to leave things lying around drove me to distraction.
The best thing I ever did was get a cleaner. We both work full time and for me it means a quick tidy round on a Thurs evening before she comes and general tidying on a day by day basis. My DH will happily do washing though and is very hands on with DS. He has been trained to do his own ironing on a Sun night whilst getting to watch his choice on the TV.
He will also cook but afterwards it looks like we have been burgled so we now have a rule that the person that cooks also clears up.
In summary, you can make it work.
Get your roles clearly defined, get a system for where things go etc and get a cleaner!
Lovely kind men are hard to find and you can manage him better without micromanaging himGrin

Quangle · 20/02/2015 19:41

How many hours do you devote to housework OP? I'm struck by your phrase here. It sounds a bit as if your identity is bound up in the way you like it done just as his is. You are both stuck in a "but this is who I am so you must respect that I care/don't care about x". Shifting this away from being an identity issue might help.

Handywoman · 20/02/2015 19:43

cailin nailed it : he takes responsibility for nothing at home. No bills, laundry, housework, finances.............

And on top of this he 'hates confrontation' and you are afraid to push it.

This does not look good to me. Add kids to the mix and it will all unravel, spectacularly. It's serious enough to call off the wedding from where I'm sitting.

ThatBloodyWoman · 20/02/2015 19:44

I can't help but think that if you don't have a car or garden to maintain,and no children,just how much housework is needed per week if he works long hours......
Sorry,different horses for different courses,but I think your standards sound very high compared to mine!

TheBug · 20/02/2015 19:46

Yes, the aversion to confrontation.

Have you seen all the passive-aggressive partner threads? If not, it's worth reading them.

YesIDidMeanToBeSoRudeActually · 20/02/2015 19:47

. However, my OH has the perception that MNers are a bunch of LTB man-hating harridans and when I previously mentioned that I’d started a thread about him (not even an uncomplimentary one), he got seriously pissed off, hence name change this time!!

Hmm. That ^^ right there is making me worried...and I'm being serious.

Maybe it's not just you he is disrespectful to, he doesn't seem to have too high an opinion of women as a whole ( and there are men, including my lovely DH, on MN!)

Your last post confirms my thoughts that it's not the housework per se that's the problem, it's his lack of respect.

HeartsTrumpDiamonds · 20/02/2015 19:51

Could you consider lowering your standards a little bit?
And he could increase his?
I think it would be a real shame to lose someone you love so much over something like this.