At my wits end re. fiancé and housework (long, sorry)

[Fedupwithmess]

Name changed for this, as OH knows MN name, but I am a regular. I apologise in advance for the extremely long post, I just really need to get this off my chest.

Been with OH 3.5 years. Wedding booked for this autumn. Both mid thirties. From the word go, we really “got” each other, had buckets of chemistry and loads of shared interests. We make each other laugh have a good social life both together and separately and are never short on conversation. He is sensible with money, emotionally stable, hates conflict has never been mistrustful or controlling. Lucky me, right?

He is also infuriatingly messy and scatter-brained. I am naturally tidy and organised, and I knew full well when he moved into the house I own 2 years ago that realistically there would be some friction, but it’s got to the point where it’s really wearing me down. It’s like I have to micromanage everything, or it never gets done.

For example, if I don’t remind him it’s bin day, the bin never gets put out, or I end up doing it myself as I just can’t be bothered to remind him a dozen times before he actually does it.
Last month he painted the garden fence and the tin and brush are still out there in the garden getting rained on every day. I keep asking him to bring it in, but he keeps “forgetting”. Ditto with turning the TV off after he’s finished watching it, making the bed when he’s last out of it, changing the toilet roll when he’s used the last of it, removing hair from the plughole after he’s had a bath…

I do the laundry, but only iron my own clothes. He can’t be bothered to iron his, so I leave it in a pile for him to hang up, but he never does and it’s there for days on end, me constantly reminding him to do it, him saying he will, then forgetting. His boss at work reprimanded him because he was such a scruffy state, but even since then he’s refusing to iron his shirts or polish his shoes – he remains insistent that it’s not a priority. I was so worried about him losing his job at one point, that I started doing this for him, hoping it would guilt trip him into doing it himself, but instead of this or even saying thank you, he just said that I was wasting my time!

The other day I asked him to hang a sweater of mine to dry (ie: on a hanger in the utility room). He simply hung it over the door, so it ended up misshapen, then proceeded to smoke in the room, so it stank! Don’t even get me started on the smoking…at first I said fine as long as it’s in the garden, then it was on the back step, then it was in the kitchen with the door constantly wide open, come rain, shine or artic temperatures. I got very upset about this on Monday and now the smoking has moved outside again (he claims he wants to quit and he hates the habit, but that’s another story) There is an ashtray in the garden, but rather than using it, he just throws the fag ends arbitrarily in the garden. I pulled him up on this yesterday and he made some halfhearted apology, but when I went down there again this morning, he’d done exactly the same thing!

Every new item of clothing he has had since we have been together I have bought and paid for because he’s not remotely bothered about his appearance, to the point where he would quite happily walk around with holes in his shoes and trousers. He said he was extremely grateful for the clothes, but still in his eyes they weren’t a priority (He earns good money, it’s not like he can’t afford new clothes) He’s constantly leaving pens in his pockets and I do my best to check them before they go in the washing machine, but not long ago he snuck a pair of trousers in at the last minute and when I took the laundry out at the end EVERYTHING had been covered in permanent marker, including an expensive dress I had only worn once!!

He’ll wash up and hoover if I ask him, but never to the standard I do it, ie: he never rinses the sink so there is always food stuck in the plughole and he never hoovers properly in the corners. I don’t moan about this, because at least doing something is better than nothing. Beyond that, he never notices other cleaning jobs that need doing, so it’s always me that keeps on top of things, not to mention being the only one who notices when household stuff needs replacing and cupboards need tidying.

Admittedly, he is a fantastic cook and will cook perhaps 1-2 times per week. I cook the rest of the time which I don’t mind, as I enjoy cooking and he works longer hours than I do. I am also responsible for all meal planning and buying of food, which again I don’t especially mind, because it means that I get to choose what I want!

He is a highly intelligent man (admittedly more in an intellectual way than a pragmatic way) and he has no problem retaining information relating to other facets of his life, it’s as if it’s in one ear and out the other when it comes to domestic tasks because he places no importance on them. It’s not like he’s a mummy’s boy who’s never had to fend for himself either – he comes from a large family with parents who always encouraged him to stand on his own two feet and he had lived away from home for well over 10 years before he moved in with me. The majority of that time he spent in a shared house, living with women who have now become some of my closest friends. They didn’t mollycoddle him either and apparently used to despair at they mess he made and his lack of common sense. They have nothing but praise for him in every other aspect of his nature though – they see him as their loyal, caring and valued friend.

I have tried to talk to him countless times about how his sloth makes me feel and the impact that it’s having on our otherwise fantastic relationship – I have told him that it’s eroding the love I have for him and what’s more, it’s completely unnecessary as if only he helped a bit more I wouldn’t have to spend my time nagging him – I hate nagging as much as he hates being nagged! I said to him that even if having a clean, tidy, ordered home is not a priority to him in the way it is to me, if he respected me, he would make an effort for my sake. He keeps saying he will (and indeed extends a great deal of respect to me in every other facet of our relationship) but the effort is always incredibly short lived. I tried the trick of stopping doing anything for him and he didn’t even notice, it just drove me nuts! He claims that he hates being micromanaged and that he just wants to be his own person. He seemed to be under the impression that I actually enjoyed being some sort of bloody site foreman!

I suppose the issue of our domestic compatibility is weighing heavier on my mind than usual because of our imminent wedding. I can’t stress how much in EVERY other respect I couldn’t ask for a more compatible partner an at 36 and wanting kids I certainly wouldn’t want to start all over again, but now I’m starting to imagine a life with him post wedding with children of our own. Surely the strain of our domestic situation will only get worse, given the chaos that small children can cause. I fear this issue might encroach on the other otherwise happy areas of our life to the extent where it damages our relationship irreparably. I know it sounds horribly calculating, but I am the one with all the finances assets in our relationship, so I certainly don’t want to be going through a divorce 5 years down the line.

What is your take on my situation? Am I being overly fussy and petty? How do you cope if you have a DH who doesn’t pull him weight domestically? Would this be a deal breaker for you if the relationship was otherwise great? How the hell do I move forward with this issue?

I've read your thread! I know Fed's been referred to it, and hope she's taken your story on board.

I guess I'm hoping her awareness of this as a problem, now, might lead her to avert disaster ... one way or another.

So do I - thats why I have been like a "dog with a bone" - I wish I had known what my own Prince Charming was all about

Yep.

Sometimes these threads are hard reading for me. I'm both co-dependent and avoidant (hence having a dysfunctional relationship with myself ) Despite lengthy and ongoing therapy, I still have these flaws. I just know a heck of a lot more about them and how to ensure I don't fuck other people over ... but, naturally, I empathise with both the co-dependent target and the passive-aggressive perpetrator.

One thing is clear, though: I don't want any poster to try and "love their partner better"! It's a hideous basis for adult relationships, unequal from the start, and almost sick when you think about what it means.

I think I wanted boundaries & structure in my own relationships. I had no bloody clue what healthy relationships look like, though, so while seeking boundaries I got controlled instead. This just made me more avoidant & angry, obvs. The red flags I'm seeing in Fed's relationship are bad but I'm holding out a small hope that he'll be amenable to some uncomfortable discussion & she will succeed in structuring the relationship so that they both can grow safely. It's a lot to ask of both partners. Above all, Fed, you mustn't go ahead if this partnership leaves you feeling put-upon.

Actually, "feeling put-upon" is sometimes used to belittle women suffering emotional abuse. I'll alter that to "he's taking the piss"! If you feel this way, you are NOT wrong and you're not imagining it. It matters a lot.

Gallic, how do you disentangle being avoidant and having ASD (iirc from your posts other threads - sorry if misremembering)? My dad was said to be avoidant but I wonder if he was on the spectrum.

Rosie, I seem to be vaguely at the light end of the spectrum. Nothing to make a big deal of. I've figured out that I'm dyspraxic - I have dreadful trouble with sequencing, and this does lead me to put things off for bloody ever while I figure out which order to do things in (and then I miss something out anyway!) But ... if I knock out the avoidance, I can look up detailed instructions, adapt them to my needs, write a list of steps and do it, right?
Only I don't. I just fritter mental energy instead.

Oh, I thought you meant Avoidant Personality Disorder here

I'd love to know how they disentangle the two, because it's rather relevant in my father's case.

This is a pretty comprehensive article recently published in The Huffington Post - with key input from global expert on PA psychiatrist Scott Wetzler.

Hope it helps.

Ah, passive aggression. The best way to handle conflict.

Not.

There's a reason why passive-aggressive behavior gets such a bad rap. Not only is it supremely frustrating for both parties involved, but it's also incredibly unproductive to the passive-aggressive person -- because his or her needs aren't actually ever acknowledged or addressed.

And for the target of the passive aggression, experiencing this kind of behavior can "make you feel like a crazy person," explains Scott Wetzler, Ph.D., vice chairman of the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Montefiore Medical Center and author of Living With the Passive-Aggressive Man. "You're being told what's happening isn't happening, and there's something very withholding about the interaction. You know something is going on, and he's denying it."

At its heart, the behavior "really is a sugar-coated hostility," Wetzler tells HuffPost. "So instead of someone who’s actually going to assertively reject something you ask them for, these folks ... indirectly don't do what's expected of them."

Passive-aggressive behavior, while expressed in many different ways, has the same roots: There is an underlying fear and avoidance of direct conflict, yet a feeling of powerlessness and helplessness. The result? An unspoken power struggle, that can appear in several different ways. Some potential manifestations:

Sarcasm
The silent treatment
Withholding of intimacy
Withholding of praise
Being critical
Sabotage
Running late
Not doing something that's asked of him/her

Sometimes these passive-aggressive behaviors are intentional because the passive-aggressive person wants the other person to engage in conflict first but other times, it's not intentional at all, says California-based therapist Andrea Brandt, Ph.D., author of 8 Keys to Eliminating Passive-Aggressiveness and Mindful Anger: The Emotional Path To Freedom. "They find people who enable them," Brandt explains to HuffPost. They act passive-aggressively toward people who won't call them out, she says, and who have very weak boundaries.
Sometimes people are passive-aggressive because of how they grew up, Brandt says. For example, people who grew up in a family where one parent is dominant and the other is subservient may be more likely to engage in passive-aggressive behavior. "They learn that powerful and volatile people cannot be approached directly, but it's OK to lie to them, or keep secrets to get what you want," she explains. "For example, we've all heard this: 'We won't tell your father.' That's passive-aggressive behavior."

While everyone exhibits passive-aggressive behavior from time to time all you have to do is think about the last time you said "yes" when you meant "no" there are some types of people who seem more likely to engage in it. People who are avoidant and afraid of conflict are more likely to be passive-aggressive, as are people who are low in self-esteem and self-confidence "because you've never been given permission to have your feelings, especially your anger," Brandt says.

So how can you best deal with a passive-aggressive person?

1. Identify the behavior for what it is: hostility. "The big thing there is to recognize the phenomenon, the behavior, for what it is -- to see it as a kind of hostility and not be fooled by the innocuousness, the sugar-coatedness of it," Wetzler advises. "Once you recognize it's a sign of hostility, it emboldens you to deal with it."

The biggest mistake people make is to be lenient. Once you give in to passive-aggressive behavior, you lose your options, he explains. "It's critical to see it as a power struggle, and then use the typical tactics one might use in a power struggle."

1. Set limits -- and then follow through. Make it clear that you won't tolerate being mistreated, Wetzler says. If a person is constantly late and it bothers you, make it clear to the person that next time she is late meeting you for a movie, you're just going to go in without her. "That's a kind of limit-setting," Wetzler says. "It's also [a way of saying], 'I'm not going to pay the price for your behavior.'"

1. Talk specifically not generally. If you're going to confront a passive-aggressive person, be clear about the issue at hand. A danger of confrontation is that statements turn too global phrases like "You're always this way!" won't get you anywhere -- so it's important to confront the person about a specific action. For instance, if the silent treatment is what gets on your nerves, explain that a specific incident where you were given the silent treatment was considered a hostile move. "Call a spade a spade," Wetzler says.

1. Practice assertive communication. There's aggressive communication, there's passive communication, and there's passive-aggressive communication. None of these is as effective as assertive communication, Brandt says.

Assertive communication means being assertive and nonreactive, yet respectful. "You have a sense of confidence, you're collaborative, [there's a sense that] you both want to resolve the problem, in a 'win-win' sort of way," she says. It's also important to listen and not inject accusations or blame into the conversation. "It's not just about getting your way, but taking the other person into consideration as well. Acknowledge the person and validate their feelings, which doesn't mean you have to agree with them."

OK, so everyone can be passive-aggressive sometimes. When you find yourself resorting to this behavior, how can you stop?

Mindfulness, mindfulness, mindfulness, says Brandt. By listening to your body and how you're feeling, you can identify when you're disconnecting your actions from what you think or feel (which is how passive aggression gets stirred up in the first place), she says.

Getting people to recognize that the behavior is a form of self-sabotage is also key. "They don't link the fact that they didn't get the project in on time, or the fact that they didn't get the promotion, with their passive-aggressive behavior," Wetzler says. "They think, 'Oh, the boss is being arbitrary and unfair,' but [don't] think it has to do with their work."

It's also important to recognize that the emotion of anger at its root is not a bad thing. "Anger has many positive qualities: It tells us when something is wrong, it can help you in terms of getting you to focus, evaluate your values and goals and strengthen your relationships and connections," Brandt explains. So when you feel anger about something, it's OK to express it and directly address it with whom it concerns (using assertive communication, of course).

In that same vein, confronting fear of conflict can go a long way in minimizing passive aggression. In fact, in trying to tamp down on this behavior, you might actually experience more conflict, Wetzler says. "Hopefully that overt conflict can be negotiated and resolved, but it'll be increased because what's swept under the rug [ends up being surfaced] because there actually is a disagreement with something," he explains. "So now you have to have it come to the surface and hash it out. So to some degree, it's being more assertive, willing to engage in confrontation and conflict and being more willing to do things that are constructive that actually may take effort."

Ultimately, stopping passive-aggressive behavior comes down to figuring out what you want, and tuning out all the rest. Some people are so overly aware of what other people think and expect of them, so they just go along with it -- at their own expense. "They're not thinking of what they actually want; it's all about the other party's agenda ... they're not willing to say, 'But this is what I want.'"

The solution, then, is to listen to your own voice. "[Turn] down the volume on the external voice," Wetzler says. "Then you have a sense of direction."

Do google the symptoms of adult dyspraxia and see if it fits your dp at all.

I think there's a big difference between PA behaviour and just having weakness in that area.

As I've said before, I think it's all about intention.

...and OP, from experience, do not cover for him. If he's not doing something then leave it. If there are no consequences to his weakness he's hardly likely to learn to improve if you're compensating for him, even if his intentions are good. You aren't doing your relationship any favours YOU BOTH NEED TO CHANGE as I said before.

We all have our weaknesses but it's the intentions and reactions to them that are the important thing.

MyLife, I understand you are genuinely trying to be helpful, but blanket statements like OP's childrens' "emotional health and behaviour WILL suffer...you WILL divorce and lose your house" are a step too far. There is a huge amount of projection going on which is understandable but sometimes not helpful.

I feel now that Op's DP will not be able to do anything right in some posters eyes. There's obviously no harm in expressing an opinion that it's his long term behaviour that's key, but given OP is satisfied with progress to date and sounds more than intelligent enough to monitor this, maybe a bit more balanced posts might be more helpful than on line diagnoses and blanket statements that she is going to fuck up her (so far none existent) DC?

OP was concerned enough to recognise a problem and seek advice in the first place - possibly something posters with negative experiences didn't do? She hasn't been overly defensive, she has taken advice on board and now I think support might be more relevant than berating OP's DP further?

My mother always says "only give advice when it's asked for" I think OP has had lots of good and helpful advice already, now is a time for support as she takes this advice?

Sorry to talk about you as though you're not here OP btw

How could his intentions be good when he twice in the space of a few days flicked cigarette butts all over her patio and then left them for her to clean up, despite being asked, and despite knowing she was pissed off?

Unless he has special needs so serious that he isn't competent to consent to marriage, then you just can't explain that away as anything other than not giving a shit.

He is an adult man. He had (we hope) control over his own actions.

To allow himself (twice) to be distracted from doing a job he had promised to do is a choice.

If he had any genuine intention of doing this job, and if he considered it important, he certainly wouldn't have done this twice.

I thought it was bad enough that he had pulled this shit once. But a person with genuine good intentions would not fail to do as he promised twice in a row despite knowing their partner was upset.

It is quite hard to face up to the fact that someone has lied to your face and deliberately done something badly or not done it.
By extension it means that you can't trust them, they have no integrity and will happily just tell you any old thing just so they can get away with things which they must surely realize are unfair or selfish? ?

I very much agree with the suggestion above to look into adult dyspraxia. If he were to be diagnosed with an impairment in terms of executive organisation, he would be protected at work, and it sounds like he needs that, urgently. It would also lift his stress levels, which would inevitably help with concentration and focus at home and at work.

If you can, encourage him to see a proper clinical psychologist who can diagnose, not a random therapist or counsellor. These days, the medical world is getting much better at exactly matching diagnosed conditions with specific therapies which have been found to work with a specific diagnosis, whatever that may be.

Before I am rounded on, none of the above says that the OP should stay with her DP. If they split, an understanding of his issues will help them both move on to better relationships: they should be able to leave one another with a good understanding of why they proved incompatible. All of this can be done quite quickly.

YesIdid -- they are YOUR capitals and YOUR emphasis - please state that when you post as it is misleading.

I have been up front through-out the thread that this is exactly what happened in my life in very similar circumstances - so you can call it shared experience or term it projection. You could also call it co-dep -- behaviours I suspect the OP and I have in common - trying too hard for too long to get thru - with as always with the co-dep - it is with the very best of intention.

I think this works better - what do you think?

Your devoted parents might be absolutely devastated if the lives of their lovely only child and any future grand children is blighted by this.

After a few years with young babies this PA abusive behaviour could leave you a miserable, exhausted, frustrated, exasperated, screaming nagging banshee - totally drained and depressed from trying to move the mountain that is your impossible, useless OH.

You could divorce and loose your house. Your hard won career could collapse as you try to muddle through as a single parent. Your children's emotional health and behaviour could suffer as they try to under stand the toxic dynamic and dysfunctional parenting of their PA Dad.

I sort of agree that the OP's situation is not quite as extreme as MyLifePart2. From what I recall from the latter's posts her ex was an alcoholic, didn't have a career, she was the main breadwinner, decision-maker, and she did all the household chores and childcare. The OP's fiancé, by contrast, has a challenging career and doesn't appear to have an alcohol problem.

However, I do think MyLife is right to emphasise that aspects of the OP's fiancé's behaviour are not simply absent-minded or lazy but resistant and passive-aggressive.

I never understood why my mother made all the decisions and micromanaged my father, and I thought, naively that she was controlling and that he should just be left to do things in his own time or suffer the consequences.

However, as an adult I had to work closely with my father on a couple of projects and now I understand exactly my mum's pov. If you ask my father to do things he will not do them, you can give him a year & they still doesn't get done. Consequences don't work because he simply doesn't care about them. It doesn't make him step up. I was the one who suffered from the negative consequences not him. Ultimately I found it was much easier and less stressful for me to take responsibility for everything. If I didn't, I had to argue & stand over him every single step of the way. It was exhausting. It made me angry and I began to lose respect for him.

I meant to say, in summary, that I protected my relationship with my dad by not working with him. But if you're married to someone you don't have that option. So much depends on how willing the partner is to get to the root of his issues and to commit to working on them long term.

^^don't get done not doesn't get done.

Hey OP - it does sound like you are making progress even if he's "asking" you. So much of living with someone else is just awareness of stuff that needs doing and especially the regularity of the repetitive crap that grinds you down but is barely noticeable. [like hanging up other people's coats and putting away shoes which is a personal bugbear of mine]

It's completely possible I think to "train" another human being to become more aware and a more considerate house partner. Whether you want to or not is another matter, and for most people, to be placed in the position of "housemother" on a permanent basis would be unacceptable. Life's too short and I know plenty of people who have met partners in their late 30's/early 40's and had children.

Plenty of families divide up chores/have rota's and don't share specific tasks because they loathe doing them. So they find something their partner hates doing and takes that on instead. Find your own way of working out a better balance but it's wise to take into account that children have a way of upsetting the apple cart in a big way, especially when they are tiny.

Home wise - more space might make a huge difference longer term but in my experience it is quickly filled with more "stuff". It might be more constructive in the medium term to see whether a ruthless declutter might free up some head space for both of you. Offsite storage tends to be a longterm financial drain, but it can be a useful way of demonstrating - "hmm - didn't miss those clothes/boxes of books/old hobby equipment etc etc for a full year. It can probably go".

Rosie - if I had APD, I wouldn't be discussing it here
I'd be avoiding self-disclosure.
Catching up on thread now.

Oh, OK, I haven't seen "avoidant" used diagnostically except to mean APD.

Grateful to hear the feelings of, and the consequences for, the child of the PA Dad and the PA marriage from Twinklestein's perspective.

My main concern now that I have freed my children of further absorbing / witnessing the daily frustration of the toxic PA marriage by separating (we are on week 7), is how to heal their hurt from this experience and then equip them to cope with their PA Dad for the rest of their lives.

Tough road ahead.

Just to clarify - my STBXH still is an exceptionally intelligent, interesting and charming man. He had an excellent education and a great challenging career path ahead of him. However I became the main bread winner over time by default as he chose to stay put on easy street and never sought/gained promotion etc. due to, on reflection, self sabotaging PA behaviour in the workplace as well as at home. I did not know about PA then - I thought he was just less resilient/ambitious/achievement driven than me, i.e. a more gentle, quirky, soul, who was easily stressed so I consciously decided that I would not nag him or push him on the career front. Yes he also had an historic alcohol problem which no doubt impacted the start of his career. But even since he went teetotal (12 years ago) he is still on easy street career wise and I am still the sole decision maker (the mortgage/finance post of the OP chimed with me), and main bread winner as well as doing all the household chores and childcare. My take is that my situation is more extreme mainly because I am 20 years down the track with the additional chores and childcare that having 4 dcs entails. I absorbed all the chores - what pushed me to separate was the dysfunctional parenting and toxic relationship we were modelling.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2300903-Anyone-else-unable-to-forgive-OH-historic-alcoholism

This is my first post. In fact I've just registered to add to this thread even though much of the advice is excellent. I'm making up for lost time as below lies a thesis.

This thread has addressed some of the issues I have with my husband. I have a toddler, been with H nearly a decade but recently married. I'm 40. It is significant. When people say they wish they'd found mumsnet before they got married/ had children well I would say that some of mn's insights would have been more useful to me at 25 than 36 when I was preparing to embark on family rather than couple life. Then I could really have had some time to reflect on my whole approach to men. Asking the questions you asked at this point is hard OP and I commend your bravery and measured responses to challenges thrown your way at what must be an emotional time. I didn't realise how very much I wanted a child until I had one and I thought 'Ah OK'. Being quite independent I thought I was more concerned about regretting leaving it too late than motivated by seeing babies. Clearly a lot of stuff was going on underneath.

On the plus side I think your case might not be terminal because:
You have asked for and responded to advice from mothers
It seems (I might be wrong) your parents didn't have a particularly dysfunctional relationship so you have a good example to follow?
It seems you have a functional relationship with your dad
You seem compatible with your fiance in many ways.
You are communicating
The admiration you have for your fiance might sustain you in difficult times. My husband is talented in an area that I have no ability in and excels at this alongside working ridiculous hours in his day job. I work on the sidelines of a creative industry but could in no way produce what my husband can in his free time. I have never lost admiration for this and his ability to view things in a lateral way and I like that my son has a father who has these traits.

However...
You seem already to be putting your fiance's job first despite your academic ability. Motherhood can totally throw a couple's work power off balance, even if only for a short period while you take maternity leave. You say your fiance has always been supportive of your work etc. My husband was. Absolutely. Even when it came at his expense. He showed no sexism there. But fast forward a few years - I work part-time, so most of my work is (unpaid) childcare and housework and now this and my paid work (for which I am paid well and afforded respect in the workplace) is devalued in the following ways: if my child is sick, I'm the one to take the day off or make alternative arrangements; if I need to do an extra day's work, I'm the one to make the arrangements- if a friend helps out, I pay back the favour; if I'm invited to a networking evening event more often than not my husband 'can't' leave work on time; I am the only point of call for the nursery; before I go to work I do about 50 different childcare related tasks- my husband often does none. I prioritise my husband's creative work over my free time too. Why? Because his paid work is so stressful he needs downtime... hmmm. Of course your husband could SAH but really if he was suited to that role, you wouldn't have started this thread.

A cleaner needs recruiting, tidying up before to hide fiance's domestic habits/ clear place of confidential household admin and liaising with. And if you employ her from maternity leave, working your baby's sleep and feeding around so you aren't in her way. Stressful additional work when you are in a zombie like state. You're not going to wait for cleaner day for nasty toilet, open paint pots in the way of your toddler, kitchen sink... A cleaner is not a solution here. For those who were questioning your high standards- really how far would you have to come down to meet someone who does nothing (my case post-baby)

The 'forgot/ I'll do it later/ stop going on' attitude to hoovering might be annoying but that default to changing a nappy/ moving something out of the way of a baby, could border on neglect as a pp suggested. You're not going to let that happen. More work for you as a foreman.

I appreciate the links of Mylife as I recognise much of this in my husband and it has given us a point of dialogue that we might need to continue in this relationship. Such a pattern of communication can't be healthy for a child to witness. Whether pa is intentional or not is not the point. Many of us default to responses that suited us at a particular stage in our life (snapping at an overcritical father) which are totally dysfunctional in our adult life (snapping at boss). Many of us have the potential to self-sabotage. However in this case it could be your relationship that gets pulled down too.

As you are still pre marriage and babies and have a fiance who seems to be invested (emotionally I mean) in making this work, you have more leverage than most. I agree with pp that committing to separate spaces might be a way forward. If he has unusual tendencies maybe an unusual approach is needed to keep you sane and happy together.

Finally some of the things that you say are ways in which you are compatible (socialising/ physical) could take a serious back seat for a few years post children. If you can continue to communicate and build respect for each other perhaps these losses won't be felt so keenly.

Btw I don't know where 'our' fag buts are disappearing now but I fear I might discover them somewhere in the foundations of our house any day.

If I were him, I'd run a fucking mile.

He's not good enough now. Run, run like the way wind.

Great post montefury

He's not good enough now Treemuskears? Well, yes, he's certainly not good enough at sorting out normal adult stuff. A better response than running away would be for him to find ways to organise himself.

His unusual sloppiness isn't the OP's fault!