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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

Completely shocked by husband

178 replies

birgittestyle · 30/12/2014 00:34

This evening my husband told me he didn't love me anymore and had been seeing someone else for the last month. It has come as a complete shock as I hadn't suspected anything. He is a fantastic husband and amazing father until now. We have 3 young children aged 7, 6 and 4 and I have no idea what to say to them.
My big worry right now is that we live in Germany, the youngest was born here and my husband is german but I am English. He says the marriage is over and I just don't know what to do. I want to move back to England but I am not sure how this works under german law.
Does anyone know how custody and moving country is decided? I cannot bear the thought of having to stay here and just want to take the children back to my home. The older two were also born abroad but not in Grammy. We married in England.
Any experience or knowledge would be very helpful. I am in such a complete state of shock and need to think about what to do next.

OP posts:
however · 30/12/2014 00:37

Do you think you could go very soon? With his permission?

Frankly, I'd try to exploit the fact that he may be feeling guilty and up to his ears in lust with someone else and go now, with his blessing.

He might change his mind, but by then you'd be gone.

Original poster
birgittestyle · 30/12/2014 00:41

I am worried that could be classified as child abduction and then what do I do about finding schools for the children? I have no idea how to go about any of it. I am not seeing very clearly as it all feels as though it's happening to someone else. My family think I should go soon too but not sure about legal position

OP posts:
however · 30/12/2014 00:48

It wouldn't be, if you go with his permission.

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that you take your kids and not allow them to see their father. Not at all. I think if you have somewhere to go, and he gives you his OK, then you should go. Work out the rest later. See a solicitor when you get home.

NewName2015 · 30/12/2014 00:49

D you have someone you could stay with in the UK?

however · 30/12/2014 00:49

Do you have access to money? How are your finances arranged?

AutumnHaze · 30/12/2014 00:52

Sorry to hear that. Sounds like you need to see a German lawyer, maybe also an English one, see where you stand. Generally, place of marriage or place of birth of children are now irrelevant.

  • Child matters are dealt with by the court where the children live. Get consent of other parent to move if you can, to save court.
  • Divorce is dealt with by any of the applicable courts listed in Article 3 of this. A German divorce has a mandatory year of separation before you can file.
PoppyField · 30/12/2014 00:54

So sorry OP. Sounds like you need to go home with your children at this time. Say you need to be with your family to get support, don't say whether you think this move might be permanent or not - just say you need to go in the aftermath of his shocking revelation. You need to be near loved ones and support and you want to take the children. That's all.

Don't know any of the international legal stuff. Just get him to agree that you are going home for the time being and then take each day as it comes. You can hold it together. You deserve to be in the bosom of your family at this distressing time.

Good luck

Original poster
birgittestyle · 30/12/2014 00:56

I have access to money. The house in Germany is in my name with a mortgage linked to his salary so would take some unravelling. He has pin nos and access codes to my accounts here which I don't really understand. What bothers me is that he has been nagging me to get our marriage registered here and after the right paperwork so he must have been planning.
If a german court decides this is the best place for the children to reside am I helpless?
I do have someone I could stay with in the uk but wouldn't want to move the children around too much as it probably wouldn't be where we end up.

OP posts:
ProcrastinaRemNunc · 30/12/2014 01:00

I would come back to England, particularly if you have support here and work out the rest, once feeling safe and relatively settled. You've had an awful shock and working anything out right now will most likely, understandably feel like an insurmountable task. I think, under the circumstances, a return 'home' could be considered a reasonable thing to do. I would couch it in terms of a 'holiday' to anyone who asks, until you understand your legal position better.

Original poster
birgittestyle · 30/12/2014 01:00

Thank you for the legal link, will try to get my head around it.
I am worried he will fight for the children. Although he works full time he has a very willing helpful family. Our youngest also has hydrocephalus so we have been dependent on the excellent children's hospital here. Are these grounds to keep them/us here?

OP posts:
Original poster
birgittestyle · 30/12/2014 01:02

I should add I have lived abroad for 11 years and never with children so that too feels like a leap right now

OP posts:
Snapespotions · 30/12/2014 01:06

Oh gosh OP, I'm sorry.

I'd be inclined to stay where you are for now, if you can bear it - do you have any support in Germany? You probably need a bit of thinking time before you uproot the kids, so that you can get your mind straight and work our what you want to do. Is there anyone who could go and stay with you for a while to give you some support?

Do you anticipate that your H will try to make things difficult for you?

Snapespotions · 30/12/2014 01:09

X post. I think the hospital is an important factor. You're probably in shock right now, but your first priority must be to minimise disruption for the children.

Would you consider staying in Germany long term, or is that not an option?

ProcrastinaRemNunc · 30/12/2014 01:10

It might be worth contacting the British Consulate for advice. I found the consulate in another country very helpful, in ensuring a child of dual nationality but born in that country was able to return to england. It might not be your first step of choice but I did find their support from early on in that sotuation incredibly helpful.

ProcrastinaRemNunc · 30/12/2014 01:10

It might be worth contacting the British Consulate for advice. I found the consulate in another country very helpful, in ensuring a child of dual nationality but born in that country was able to return to england. It might not be your first step of choice but I did find their support from early on in that sotuation incredibly helpful.

ProcrastinaRemNunc · 30/12/2014 01:10

It might be worth contacting the British Consulate for advice. I found the consulate in another country very helpful, in ensuring a child of dual nationality but born in that country was able to return to england. It might not be your first step of choice but I did find their support from early on in that sotuation incredibly helpful.

2015 · 30/12/2014 01:11

What a horrible shock. I hope you get the advice you need. Thanks

Original poster
birgittestyle · 30/12/2014 01:14

I have never really been happy here which I think is one of the problems. He has been having an affair with my eldest daughter's best friend's mother. It is very small town around here which I am dreading. I too am thinking sit tight but I feel sick to my stomach.
As the youngest DD has a shunt we now only have check ups every 6 months
I don't have much support here and everyone is away on holiday atthe moment.

OP posts:
Snapespotions · 30/12/2014 01:28

You poor thing, I can see it isn't ideal for you to stay where you are. Have you talked to your H about what you might do? Do you think he would stand in the way of you taking the kids away at least for a short break? Has he moved out?

When are the kids due back at school? They're so young, it wouldn't matter much if they missed a couple of weeks.

You must be feeling very alone right now. Hope you are ok.

AutumnHaze · 30/12/2014 01:55

It is all so new and such a shock, give yourself a break. Try and have a call with a lawyer or two soon - information as to your legal position might take some of the fear away - and then very gradually think about your options, perhaps a city in Germany, or where in England, think about schools, culture or language issues, where you would have family support, where you could best find work or whatever. Your happiness as the children's primary carer is very relevant so it will help to have thought it through properly.

lapetitesiren · 30/12/2014 02:14

Have no legal knowledge but if you drive to uk with the children with their passports you would not be checked before uk borders and it would be unlikely you would be refused entry to visit family. You can decide what you do next once you are in uk and have time to think.

Original poster
birgittestyle · 30/12/2014 02:23

I don't really know what decisions I need to get on with tomorrow. I will try to find lawyers in Germany and the uk and try to keep it from the children. We have a family of 5 arriving to stay for 3 days and a New Years eve dinner here. The children are bilingual but they start school at 6 here so I am worried about a big jump for them. Everything is rushing round in my head. Is there any point in trying to persuade him to stay? Once he's reached this point is that it? I still love him.

OP posts:
Original poster
birgittestyle · 30/12/2014 02:38

The kids are due back next tuesday

OP posts:
mrsallergy · 30/12/2014 02:43

I'm so sorry. This has happened to me in the past.

You need to post on the legal board.

In short both countries are signatories to the Hague Convention and (from what you describe) the children's "place of habitual residence" is Germany. This means if you remove them from Germany without their father's permission he is entitled to file for child abduction against you and for the children to be returned to Germany.

If he gives you permission to take the children out of Germany for a holiday and you do not return, he will also be entitled to file for child abduction.

Your best bet is to get his permission - I know how nightmarish this is for you. I have been there - you are separated from your support and the person whom you thought had your back has disappeared. You are going to have to think with your head and do your grieving later.

If you do not get his permission to relocate with the children, you can apply to the German courts for "leave to remove". Basically, you will need to argue your case of why it would be in the children's best interests for them to move to the UK with you (eg, you are their primary carer). You will have a better case of getting this if you can prove you can provide financially for them in the UK (eg, line up a job); that you will bend over backwards to facilitate contact between the children and their father etc.

Look at www.reunite.org.uk which has a list of UK lawyers experienced in this field. Some will provide a free first consultation. I "shopped around" for mine (ie wrote several an email outlining my circumstances asking what help they could provide and what their fees were).

Good luck. I am thinking of you. Keep strong - you will get there.
xxxxxxx

dollius · 30/12/2014 03:03

If you harbour any hope of him changing his mind, you need to put him out right now. He will only realise what he is losing if he actually has a taste of losing it. If he won't go, you move into spare room and stop doing any domestic servicing of him. If no spare room then the kids share and you take one of their rooms.

In the meantime, you need to find a UK lawyer experienced in international divorce for advice. They should be able to tell you the consequences of returning to the uk and then not coming back to Germany. Obviously you must also consult a German lawyer. Just make sure you find someone experienced in this issue. Perhaps ask on the expat/legal boards here.

Having said that, if the children are settled, bilingual and have friends etc, you may need to face up to the idea of remaining there at least until they are 18 or so. Would that be such a bad thing? Is your H likely to get nasty about residence etc? Could you move to a city/town where you would be happier but the kids could still have easy access to their father?