Completely shocked by husband

[birgittestyle]

This evening my husband told me he didn't love me anymore and had been seeing someone else for the last month. It has come as a complete shock as I hadn't suspected anything. He is a fantastic husband and amazing father until now. We have 3 young children aged 7, 6 and 4 and I have no idea what to say to them.
My big worry right now is that we live in Germany, the youngest was born here and my husband is german but I am English. He says the marriage is over and I just don't know what to do. I want to move back to England but I am not sure how this works under german law.
Does anyone know how custody and moving country is decided? I cannot bear the thought of having to stay here and just want to take the children back to my home. The older two were also born abroad but not in Grammy. We married in England.
Any experience or knowledge would be very helpful. I am in such a complete state of shock and need to think about what to do next.

He doesn't have joint custody as yet.

Op, file for divorce ASAP from the UK. Call a lawyer and get it in motion. Then everything has to be done from here. A holiday here which turns into a longer stay because of your dh behaviour and wanting to divorce is not abduction as you don't have a home in Germany as I assume he wants to sell and you can't work ( language/ job market). Remain v calm and file form the UK as soon as you can. It's a nightmare time of year but many lawyers are working- mine is, for a start:)

Lavenderhoney - it IS abduction to bring the children to the UK for a holiday and then refuse to go back due to impending divorce or any other circumstance. It's called "wrongful retention" and the father would be entitled to bring an action for child abduction against the mother.

That advice is quite dangerous. Going for a holiday with the children and not returning is abduction and is exactly the scenario for which the the Hague convention was developed. Also of course the father has joint custody at present as this is automatic when parents are married. Selling a house (if there is one) is not that easy or quick and cant be done without consent from all owners. I cant see any reason why filing from the UK would be that more advantageous. Financial support tends to be more generous in Germany (or used to). Also op you may be entitled to financial support for language courses and "umschulung" (training) depending on your circumstances.
Of course at the moment all you want to do is go back home but try to also look at the positives if that is not possible.

So sorry for the long absence, I feel as though everything has been thrown up in the air and I don;t know what will land, whether it will land and how bad the further damage will be. I am destroyed, if I am ever alone I am sobbing. Thank god the friends looked after everything and by very good luck my DB and SIL were able to come yesterday to give me some wonderful support. I am very lucky to have immensely supportive friends and family and my DM is flying out tomorrow.
So as for legal matters - I have an appointment with an international family lawyer my american friend used on Monday. I also have a telephone appt with another tomorrow. Firstly I spoke to a shit hot divorce lawyer specialist in London yesterday but the bad news is that there seem to be no grounds for me to be able to file in the UK. Our domicile status swings much too firmly in the direction of Germany so would fall under German jurisdiction.
As for my H, he seems now to be hit by the enormity of his actions. I have been cruel and angry and sobbing, throwing anything I can at him and furious with him for not putting up a fight, for not trying to save our marriage before it was too late. It is true that it certainly wasn't perfect. It had gone quite stale but then after 10 years every marriage surely has bad times and takes some work - it doesn't mean you need to run into the arms of the next thing on offer.
He is now willing to go to marriage counselling and has also suggested mediation. I feel in my heart that I would throw everything at saving my family. He understands and is resigned to the fact that if it fails I will take the children to England. I honestly believe him but he is worried at the speed with which I would move. If we do counselling I have said that he would have to set the OW aside and he would have to be committed but he says he doesn't know yet what there is left to save of the two of us as he doesn't love me like that any more but he is willing to try.
I am completely confused about access to the children. I told him he couldn't come and see them yesterday but this afternoon he has taken them out. He wants to put them to bed and then talk this evening. I have told him they can stay with him at his parents on Saturday night and for Sunday and then one evening a week and one weekend day. He seems to think he can get a flat nearby and take them to school, come round every evening. I cannot let him do this but he goes on an on about putting the children first and that legally at the moment we have equal custody. Any ideas as to how I can sort out something that is reasonable? Is my position reasonable/the norm? My DB says I shouldn't let him see them at all so he realises what he has lost.
I cannot think straight anymore. How will I ever sleep again?
Is there anything I have missed that I should discuss with him this evening?
I am so relieved to find this help here, so many wise and compassionate people, I feel very grateful for this.

I'm not sure whether you are separating or both working on your marriage now, and maybe nobody is sure.

I'm not sure I understand the access arrangements, and I'd be nervous about setting a precedent that means they don't need to live with you. However, I strongly disagree with your brother. Your children deserve to spend time with their father. This is about what's fair for them and they shouldn't be used to punish your husband.

I've no advice but it sounds like you are doing all the right things. It's good that your Mum is coming out and that you have plenty of RL support.

Stay strong and keep your wits about you.

I strongly feel that it is a bad idea to be difficult with access to the children to "let him see what he's missing". If you ever need to appl for "leave to remove" the children, he will use this against you.

This is what I would do if I were you:

1. Above all else, act as quickly as possible. I think his attitude towards you will harden surprisingly quickly. Think with your head right now, the rest can wait. You have to out manoeuvre him. Use this time whilst he's distracted by the first flushes of love and lining up his next partner to line up your legal team and ensure that the interests of you and the children are best protected. It's possible he's not even aware of the extent if his rights yet under The Hague convention and can prevent the children from leaving Germany. I would not disabuse him of his ignorance if so.

1. See a divorce lawyer in in Germany tomorrow with experience of both jurisdictions to establish whether you will be better off (financially) filing in the UK or Germany.

1. If it's Germany, get all the papers drawn up and ready to go if needed. You may need to file fast so need everything ready.

1. If it's the UK speak to more lawyers in the UK. I spoke to several. Filed on fairly dodgy domicile grounds, but domicile is a woolly term and is not defined anywhere in legislation. We almost ended up in court about it but stbxh backed out the day before - he didn't want the hassle and expense of going to court over this point. Ask a lawyer with specific experience in domicile but I suspect that your h would have to prove a) that you had rescinded your domicile of origin for domicile of choice and b) that you had not abandoned your domicile of choice (in which case your status reverts to your domicile of origin).

1. If you feel it's worth it, get divorce papers drawn up and ready to go in the UK.

1. Work on your husband in getting his agreement for the kids to relocate. Get recorded in any firm you can -email, text, phone recording. Point out all the reasons why it will be better for HIM if you and the kids relocate quickly.

1. Start putting out feelers for jobs and places to live in the UK. This is the time to look up your contacts and allies and put them to use. You will need to prove how and where you are going to live in the UK if you have to apply for leave to remove - start getting thins lined up NOW.

1. Do NOT get in the way of his access and the chicldren. This will work against you. Keep your nose SQEAKY CLEAN. Be aware that everything you say and do May end up in front of a judge.

1. A pithy one, but try not to swear in your texts or emails. I'm now quoted in English case law using the f-word. It's not how I meant to go down in legal history.

I don't understand whether you are now together or apart. If you're apart why are you going for counselling? If you're together why are you discussing access?

You should have whatever contact arrangements suit you, so a weekday evening and weekend day seems reasonable, but it's whatever the kids and you are happy with.

If you are looking at separation and divorce, your years mandatory separation will start once he moves out, and you won't be able to divorce before then.

Your DB is not right in what he says about access. It would be wrong of you to use the kids as a weapon.

I guess you need to do what feels right until you've spoken to the family lawyer. I don't think he should have the luxury of having them when he decides it suits him, in view of it being him that has left home. He should get to feel the consequences of his actions.
But in view of him saying he's not sure there is anything to save in your marriage I wonder how much use mediation will be. I think he is just doing it to prove later that he has tried to mediate etc...
The guy is in love with the OW, it's hard to get past that & in the end you have to ask yourself, or at some point further on in your life, if it's worth "forcing"

OP can't file in the UK and can't file for a year in Germany.

Posters without experience of the German system are giving you wrong information.

By the way - I was you 3.5 years ago. Had been out of the job market for 8 years and felt like id been kidnapped and dropped in Baghdad. I'm back in the job market now and I BLOODY LOVE IT. Love my job and the people I work with and find it it a piece of cake compared to pre-Bagdhad days. NOTHING phases me at work largely due to the trauma of this separation and everything connected to it. It isn't going to kill you - in fact, it will be the making of you. You won't see it now but life is going to present you with opportunities that you wouldn't otherwise have had and at some point you are going to be glad of it.

I suppose it is hard to try to separate your own feelings re your husband from the relationship between him and his children. You cant use them to demonstrate to him what he lost. They are confused and hurt as well and need the reassurance of both parents. So yes there needs to be a high level of contact.
At the same time he can not just walz in and out of your home as he pleases.
If he has left he needs to accept that this is your home now, not his.
Meditation and counselling is good. It will help both of you to articulate your points and to work out what you really want and how to go forward separately or together.
If you are going to talk later would it be a good idea to have someone else there or get a babysitter and meet somewhere neutral?
Also can you in the meantime look at language courses to give you more of a structure and to get you out into adult company and help you focus on something completely different?
Good luck

If she can't file in Germany, this may be grounds for her to be able to file in the UK?

I'd get this point checked with suitably experienced German and English lawyers OP.

Actually, from what you've written it sounds as though a filing can be made in Germany, but a divorce won't be granted until after a year's 'cooling off' period.

I haven't got anything useful to add, but I wish you luck OP. I know how much this hurts.

Look, you can't do anything at court in Germany for a year.

If he moves out, 12 months later you can file papers with a german court, not before.

All this "file first, file fast" is nonsense.

No, file first file fast is not nonsense usefully. It's the very advice I was given by several different solicitors, and is set out in Brussels II.

Your dh is right, joint custody is the norm in Germany now. As much as you hurt, the access your dh is suggesting is very sensible, will see you through your separation year and will give your children time to adjust.

OP, it's important to note that "equal/joint custody" does NOT mean that he can come over and come into your residence every evening to put the dcs to bed. Absolutely not!!! Put together specific days/times and adhere to them. He will have to take them to his parent's house for contact until he has a suitable flat. He is NOT to have the contact at your house, if that is going to be your residence. He can take the children either out or to his parent's.

This "coming over every evening" is not fair on you and is confusing for the children. If you are separated, you have a right to privacy and private space - which he doesn't get to intrude on every evening. This usually is looked upon as a means of keeping you off balance, so he remains in control of the situation. As he knows you are upset and want to fix things, seeing him daily would make you extremely vulnerable and stressed, and allow him to manipulate you MUCH easier. Not a good idea at all.

Glad you're getting good legal advice. How about asking the solicitors what the minimum is in terms of allowing the father access to the children ?

If you can't stand to see him at the moment how about asking your brother to take them to their father ? I believe you need to bear in mind that what you agree to in this temporary situation is something which can then be referred to during the divorce proceedings. I think the temporary childcare plans can be used to negotiate permanent future agreements. That's why I think it's important that you get proper legal advice.

I also suggest that you are careful not to let your h say that you are depressed. If he's working and not depressed and you're not working and depressed the law might ultimately find that he is the better option for the main carer of the children.

A final suggestion is that if you decide to stay in Germany, you ask for compensation from him so that you can retrain in a job that you like. He has faulted on the marriage - you gave up your country and job. He has prospered at your expense ! For that he owes you.

Whatever childcare arrangements you set up with him now will be used as the basis for what a reasonable agreement would look like further down the line, so don't be pressured into agreeing to more than you are comfortable with.

I think contacting the local Jugendamt should be your very first port of call, as they can help you sort out money and access plus act as mediators and it won't cost you a penny. You will also be viewed very favourably for getting them involved and they will be involved in any later court proceedings including the divorce.

Make it clear to him now, in writing that you expect financial support. Any back dated payments will be dated from the date the written request is made.

Also, joint custody is not the same as 50:50 access.

You will both have parental responsibility. However 50:50 shared care will not be awarded if one party is not on board with it.

He is now willing to go to marriage counselling and has also suggested mediation. I feel in my heart that I would throw everything at saving my family. He understands and is resigned to the fact that if it fails I will take the children to England. I honestly believe him but he is worried at the speed with which I would move. If we do counselling I have said that he would have to set the OW aside and he would have to be committed but he says he doesn't know yet what there is left to save of the two of us as he doesn't love me like that any more but he is willing to try.

I think your H is throwing you lifelines because he is guilty. I suspect suggesting mediation along with marriage counselling means that he knows he is not going to continue with your marriage - otherwise why bother with mediation at this stage.

This suspicion is confirmed by the fact that he is unclear on whether he wants to give up the OW. Be careful OP. If you managed to persuade him to give her up, your life subsequently would be a nightmare of trying to please him so that he doesn't stray again.

I'm sorry but I think the only way you could come back from this is if he was on his hands and knees begging you to try again and pleading for forgiveness. Anything less is not good enough and you should let him go. Really, he's a shit and not the person you thought he was. Just ask yourself, if you wanted to end your marriage would you do it like this?

Also, agree with others. Your DB's advice is bad. Do not use your children to get back at him. Decide what you want the access to be and TELL him. Do not allow him to decide on principle. Also give him a deadline by which to have organised somewhere he can see the kids so that he can stop coming into your home. It is important to feel that that is your space in which to relax and be in control.

I suspect he wants to keep you in line for a bit longer so he can manipulate things his way - this is the only reason I can see for him to agree to marriage counselling and mediation. He is clearly not willing to give up the OW, and I think it's fairly obvious that he's been planning this for awhile. He's trying to keep you on the back foot, so he can keep the upper hand.

Do NOT get stuck doing the "pick me" dance. Seriously. He will use you to get what arrangements he wants, then dump you again. If you watch the relationships board, you'll see it time and time again.

Sorry, I know it's not what you want to hear.

OP - have you looked at the list of recommended lawyers on the reunite.org website yet? They will have specific expertise in terms of relocating with the children back to the UK if that's what you wish to do.

As already stated, wherever you divorce has no impact on where the children will live, but it may have an impact on your financial future which is why it's imperative you get advice quickly from suitably experienced German and English lawyers.