Rape? Or am I just an idiot? Or both? (may be graphic)

[bringoutyourdead]

NC. Hope it works. Apologies for typos etc haven't slept, probably still under the influence and freezing cold fingers.

I probably haven't posted in the right place but I post quite a bit in relationships and know people are straight forward and/or supportive if necessary.

I went out for my work Xmas do last night. I drank quite a lot. I was supposed to stay at a friends but didn't. I went with a strange man (boy? Man? He was probably younger than me). I dont remember how I got talking to him or where or why. I just remember being in a taxi with him, and a friend calling and me explaining I wouldn't be going to the other friends with them. Anyway we ended up at a house (not his by what he said?) and having sex. It was not the drunk casual sex I had planned or like. Basically we had anal sex. I am agreeable to it sometimes but it's the sort of thing I "reserve" for LTRs when there's trust etc. I remember hitting him quite a few times for hurting me (like hits to the body) and saying "ow" etc. He was asking questions like is that good (in the "sexy" not caring way)....and I was saying no. But I never said "dont have sex with me" i dont think.

I stayed and was sick a lot in the night. I left a few things there (because they were covered in my sick anyway) and snuck out in the morning. I didn't have any cash with me so couldn't get home. I knew roughly where I was and after walking for about an hour found a cash machine and a bus stop.

I'm home now and safe but in some pain. I noticed after that he had used baby oil as a lube (pretty sure that affects condoms?) so pain wise it could be worse. I have burns on my knees presumably from carpet. I was sort of led face down on it in a living room.

I dont even know why I'm posting now that I've told "the story". I feel really confused about what happened. I think he took advantage a bit and that's making me angry. I'm so angry at myself, though. Is what happened rape, or me being an idiot? A work friend text to check I was ok. I didn't know what to say, can't exactly explain.

I don't know what I want. Someone to tell me I haven't done anything wrong and I'll forget about it soon enough. But I know I've been a dick and it's going to play on my mind

bringout, I just want to add another voice of support.

I don't know much about the technicalities of what happened to you, but I do know that how you were treated by this man sounds (at the very least) unpleasant and wrong, and certainly not something you should feel the need to call yourself an "idiot" for.
Also, if anything, your previous experiences of sex with people you don't really know would give you more of a sensitive radar to tell when something isn't quite right in an encounter such as this. The idea that your previous (perfectly valid) choices could in any way make it better that this man acted as he did is frankly ludicrous.

(Also, am well impressed by the self-monitoring-thread here. Hope you've managed to ignore the bullshit, OP).

I believe you too, bringout

Actually shocked MAC. This is absolutely disgusting. Women are allowed to have sex with who they want to have sex with, the kind of sex they want and at a time they want it, with any willing party. Whether its rape or not does not depend on a womens sex life. Its scary that such opinions are so common. Another one here who believes you OP.

Please don't listen to this bile.

It's people like Middle that's make victims doubt themselves. That make us think consent can't be withdrawn, that we deserved what we got, that we are at fault for not being clear enough or predicting what happened.

I've not reported what happened to me, and my time on MN has made me realise my reaction to minimise my rape and not reporting it is pretty typical.

All the time there is a prevailing attitude like Middle's rape victims will not be clear in what's happened and certainly would be discouraged from reporting and these bastards are getting away with it as the perpetrator of my rape has done. That's my biggest issue, the thing I'm struggling g most to come to terms with

On the other hand, having lots of strong articulate women on here disputing such posts has certainly helped me more this past couple of days than if Middle and co hadn't posted.

Mind you I'm a bit further along in my thinking now but early on it might have broken me

Thanks again yo all those brave enough to share their stories and feelings. It's good to know I'm normal.

amen

I think on the one hand it's great that almost all posts have been allowed to stand - but we have to remember there's an op at the other side of this thread. This isn't a theoretical discussion, it's someone's life. I haven't reported but I'd like to think if op had, things would have been deleted. Maybe that's a level of scrutiny that doesn't happen though.

I'm glad some posts have been allowed to stand, at least the posters can't hide what they said behind deletions.

However, I'm disappointed MNHQ haven't commented on this more. I get that it's a self moderating forum but it just doesn't feel right to leave the posts and only comment once linking the 'I believe you campaign.'

I believe you, OP. I'm so sorry you met this filth.

Hello

I am very sorry to hear that this has happened to you. It must have been a very distressing experience, both at the time and afterwards.

It is very important that you look after yourself physically, mentally and psychologically. So have the STD tests that you have mentioned before, go to University counselling/authorities and make sure you can access counselling and support there, as well as making them aware of issues that may surface later. Also contact your local Rape Crisis for support.

If you feel that it is something you want to do, you might also consider asking your local Rape Crisis for advice regarding reporting what happened to the police. I mention this because it is absolutely clear to me that even if you did consent to sex (which you may or may not have done, you are clear on that) you didn't consent to anal sex and that is rape.

Your local Rape Crisis may know how well your local police force deal with and handle such things. It shouldn't be the case that forces should differ on how seriously they handle such things and how well, but unfortunately it is the case.

It may be that your story is corroborated by other people's experiences, so even though you might not wish to take it further yourself, it may help police be aware of this man's activities or put together a case from wider evidence. I say this because I understand that you might not wish to put yourself through such an experience, in part because you are making a judgement how the likelihood of a successful prosecution if you complain. I think that is a legitimate concern, but you might not have all the information. Your local Rape Crisis may be bale to tell you whether your local police force is competent and sensitive enough to be taking a wider view of individual compaints, monitoring for patterns and so on.

It has occurred to me that the reason he said you weren't going to his house but to his friends, but then he was familiar with the place was because he knew what he was going to do, but didn't want you to think you knew where he lived. Just a possibility, but a red flag.

There should be clearer legislation in this country (on consent when drunk, on consent to different acts and different times, on what can be said about both victims and accused in the run up to a trial). There should also be a clearer culture around what is and isn't acceptable sexual behaviour, and on how to treat other people generally.

I would in particular urge you to get some counselling swiftly, so you don;t bury this and have it resurface later at a time when it could disrupt your life greatly.

Yy Empire also, too drunk to consent for one person may not be too drunk to consent for another person.
To consent you need to understand your options, and understand the possible consequences of each option. Some people can do this after a bottle of wine, some after more, some after less.
If a person is confused, ie cant hold a conversation, keeps forgetting what has been said etc, is falling down drunk, slurring their words, its fair enough to assume they probably cant consent.
If they are a bit relaxed and giggly, you can have a conversation about a subject for 10 or so minutes without them losing the thread of it, they know where they are and show an understanding of the time ("whoops, no time for another, the last bus is in 15 mins") etc then they probably can consent, though id suggest that unless you know the person VERY well, you just wait until another less drunken time.

Thanks MyEmpire

I don't think legislation is clear enough- in that I don't think it sends a strong enough message about what is and isn't acceptable sexual behaviour. I definitely do not mean "Oh, poor rapists, I can see how they were confused about whether consent was given or not".

On the issue of clarity in law, I should have been more specific about the area that I think needs a lot of work- consent whilst drunk/incapacitated. I don't see why it would be a problem to presume that someone who has consumed alcohol/taken drugs is not capable of giving consent, in the same way that someone who has drunk alcohol is presumed to be incapable of driving. What I think needs to be achieved by this is stopping situations where people either take advantage of people who are drunk or who deliberately ply people with drinks to get them to a point that they will be more compliant. With the exception of spiking drinks, I don't really think it is addressed at all. This would make it clear that it isn't ok to happen upon someone drunk and think it's ok to take advantage of them, or to bring that about. There could be a better way of doing this legislatively that I haven't thought of, and I would be happy to hear of one.

Another big part of the problem is that legislation exists and isn't properly applied by the agencies tasked with doing so- police, criminal courts and so on. This is linked to issues mentioned before in both legislation and culture. However, we can legitimately expect paid professionals in these fields to act in line with legislation and specific guidance on this could be issued and enforced through mechanisms like professional competence assessments and CPT.

The big underlying problem is a culture where men are encouraged to be sexual risk takers and it is ok for a man to do anything in the pursuit of sex, whilst women are encouraged to be sexual gatekeepers and punished when they "fail" at this.

Hmm, maybe the point about consent not being presumed would achieve the same thing. Not sure, I'll think about it.

My point about alcohol was about reactions/perceptions etc not about the capacity to make decision btw.

As regards you and your husband after a glass of wine...well, if nothing wrong happened there wouldn't be a complaint to the police would there? I realise the rape apologists would be even more up in arms about the possibility of malicious accusations then...but the balance of responsibility doe sneed to be radically altered.

..."require men to be able to justify what they had done to ensure they had consent, rather than requiring women to actively indicate non-consent."

The more I think about it, this quite simple thing would sort of change everything? If the key question asked was 'what made you think you had consent?' to the accused, rather than 'what did you do to show lack of consent' to the victim. Then again this is maybe already what happens - I admit I wouldn't know. I suppose this could be construed as reversing the way justice works, as I know in, eg, murder trials, there is no duty to prove you didn't do it - only for the prosecution to prove that you did, if that makes sense. But then, maybe the question of consent could be seen as akin to alibis - eg, if you can't say where you were and what you were doing (and it wasn't a murder), then it does tend to look quite bad...

I agree that making drunk sex (even VERY drunk sex) automatically criminal would be unhelpful - for starters it would minimise rape when the person had been drinking even more than currently. If being drunk and having sex is technically criminal, then most people going to be occasionally having 'criminal' sex. So then if a rape does occur, then it makes it even easier for the rapist to say 'well, come on, everyone does this, we were having the not REALLY criminal version'.

Indeed, it really does

Yup, put the responsibility where it should lie.

So then if a rape does occur, then it makes it even easier for the rapist to say 'well, come on, everyone does this, we were having the not REALLY criminal version'.

Agree with this.

I've had sex with my husband when I have been really, really drunk. However, I was very enthusiastic and it was me who came onto him, that's the difference, just as Empire said. He had enthusiastic consent.