Rape? Or am I just an idiot? Or both? (may be graphic)

[bringoutyourdead]

NC. Hope it works. Apologies for typos etc haven't slept, probably still under the influence and freezing cold fingers.

I probably haven't posted in the right place but I post quite a bit in relationships and know people are straight forward and/or supportive if necessary.

I went out for my work Xmas do last night. I drank quite a lot. I was supposed to stay at a friends but didn't. I went with a strange man (boy? Man? He was probably younger than me). I dont remember how I got talking to him or where or why. I just remember being in a taxi with him, and a friend calling and me explaining I wouldn't be going to the other friends with them. Anyway we ended up at a house (not his by what he said?) and having sex. It was not the drunk casual sex I had planned or like. Basically we had anal sex. I am agreeable to it sometimes but it's the sort of thing I "reserve" for LTRs when there's trust etc. I remember hitting him quite a few times for hurting me (like hits to the body) and saying "ow" etc. He was asking questions like is that good (in the "sexy" not caring way)....and I was saying no. But I never said "dont have sex with me" i dont think.

I stayed and was sick a lot in the night. I left a few things there (because they were covered in my sick anyway) and snuck out in the morning. I didn't have any cash with me so couldn't get home. I knew roughly where I was and after walking for about an hour found a cash machine and a bus stop.

I'm home now and safe but in some pain. I noticed after that he had used baby oil as a lube (pretty sure that affects condoms?) so pain wise it could be worse. I have burns on my knees presumably from carpet. I was sort of led face down on it in a living room.

I dont even know why I'm posting now that I've told "the story". I feel really confused about what happened. I think he took advantage a bit and that's making me angry. I'm so angry at myself, though. Is what happened rape, or me being an idiot? A work friend text to check I was ok. I didn't know what to say, can't exactly explain.

I don't know what I want. Someone to tell me I haven't done anything wrong and I'll forget about it soon enough. But I know I've been a dick and it's going to play on my mind

Whether you decide to report or not: get yourself to a STD clinic, pronto.

AF, you are one of the posters that focused my thinking about rape when I first joined MN years ago. Don't ever change.

I try to, plane, but I don't have it in me

I haven't had an MN suspension for a while though, so I must be doing ok at the moment

Thanks all.

For me, it's not about shame, or not wanting to be a victim, it's about - well, garlic your amazing post - you have injuries, still. I mean, to me, that's the sort of thing I associate with rape. And I have to admit that I can't escape a sense that for me to say 'well I was drunk and possibly seemed friendlier than I meant to, and ended up in a guys bedroom and he didn't take no for an answer and got a bit forceful and I just couldn't face getting into a physical fight about it, so we had sex, and then I went home, and I didn't feel great but I'm basically physically fine', that that would in some way belittle your experience. You know? Like, if I go to the police and say that, and try to bring charges... I know full well that's incredibly unlikely to result in any punishment for the man. And I can't help but feel like it would be people like me adding to the minimisation of more serious experiences.

I really don't want to offend people, or make it sound like I think this is OK - it's more just that I do, rightly or wrongly, see a difference between that experience of mine, and ones that are more... forceful? More damaging? I guess the same way there is murder and manslaughter, I almost feel like there are two rapes. Does that make sense?

Shaska that is why there are sentencing guidelines- to take into account mitigating and aggravating factors.

but shaska, there isn't "rape" (someone dragged into an alleyway by a stranger and forcefully penetrated at knifepoint) and "rape-lite" (by someone you know, have possibly slept with before, are normally comfortable with, no violence involved)

The law recognises that, so you can too

It doesn't mean those experiences would stand up to the examination of a criminal investigation though, no one is saying that every incidence of rape could do

Can't believe some of what I am reading.

The title to the thread is Rape? or am I just an idiot?

To all those people saying no it isn't, do you realise that you have quite effectively told a woman who has undergone a terrible experience that she is an idiot? Is this the response you would give to a friend or expect from others if you had asked "is this rape?"

Naming the thing is always best. It was clear from the opening post. As regards details and whether the OP should be acting differently, just read the other posts here, from Garlic and shaska. It is clear that many women do not know what constitutes rape and what actually constitutes consent. We bury these experiences that have left us feeling vulnerable and confused, to give it a name, the deal with it is too overwhelming. If its normal for most women to be unsure and doubt themselves, if its normal for women to play it down and make excuses, or blame themselves, then it is clear that in such a situation as the OP described, she may act in much that same way. That is why it takes others to name it, and that is why it is important to do so.

No shaska I disagree.

This is like Judy Finnegans comments on the Ched Evans case.

Rape is violent enough as it is. You don't need to be beaten up etc to make it 'count' or be a 'real' rape. If someone is beaten up during rape, that is an additional crime.

Do you see what I mean?

Sorry AF I've x-posted a bit there:

I agree with your comparison with Judy Finnegan's comments, Alpaca

Just got to this thread and am genuinely shocked by some of the posts and the "blame shifting/sharing". Continuing a sexual act where a party has clearly indicated pain and has had to physically hit back in response to this cannot be construed as anything other than rape. It doesn't matter if consensual sexual activity took place before this. It doesn't matter if the OP was drunk.

First OP - please get some RL support. It really will help.

Second BSHarri- - I loved your post and will (in a few years at an appropriate age) impart that truly excellent advice to my son.

Quite frankly I'd love to see a version of that statement in the national bloody curriculum.

I have recently discovered Yes Matters

This website is trying to address some of those issues, YT

I don't entirely mean in the law. And it's not about violence, I didn't mean to imply that. I just mean.. oh I don't even know. Just that I found it so strange to come on here and my instinctive response to be 'god I feel for you and that's utterly shit but that's not what I consider rape - or, it might technically be rape but not 'call the police' rape' and to have others feel so strongly that it was. So I'm trying to make sense of that.

Thank you all though, really. I'm happy this has become less argumentative and it's made me rethink a lot of things, which I guess is good. It's just unfortunate that the older I get the angrier I get about it all, and it seems that pretty regularly these days I kind of come to and think 'oh this is all just completely shit isn't it'.

Tx for the link AF - will look at that

So shocked and shaken at this thread, and some of the opinions voiced (middle !)

I was assaulted at 13, on a beach, at night, with a guy who I'd had a 'holiday romance' with. It took me years to work out (with therapy) that I had made it clear that I wanted him to stop and that it wasn't consensual (similar things said - no I don't like it, that hurts etc) and that he recognised that (come on, you know you do - say YES you like it! followed by a punch in the face to reinforce that).

I wasn't drunk, although he had been drinking, but the next day my memory of the events was like the OPs - very vague, sketchy - and even 27 years later, it feels like flashbacks.

Bring - be kind to yourself and talk to someone if you can't maintain your normal reality and day to day life after this. So sorry you've been through this

shaska, yes it is all just shit

mostly for women

it's not too shit for the men that assault women and get away with it though

YT, the founder of that website/FB group (Yes matters...a wordplay on the concept that "no" is not enough, only an enthusiastic "yes" should be a green light) ) was on the local news saying that she and other members had received rape threats because of their activism around consent and the objectification of women

I consider that a marker of the importance of the work they are doing

Oh - and the whole real rape / rape lite question () - either is insidious and damages your trust in men, your trust in self - everything. It doesn't make it not rape or less impactful if the victim knew the rapist / attacker - and I think it can have a significant impact as it means as a victim you can't trust even those you know / date

That's just awful AF

AnyFucker oh it's definitely not shit for them. Shit for us. Just about always.

Then we need to stop letting them off the hook, shaska

this is interesting rapists don't accept that they are rapists

shaska I think you've been very open and honest in your posts here and wanted to share some of my thinking. I thought a lot like you in the past, and it's only through exploring this issue on MN and particularly on the FWR boards that I've been able to pin down my thinking and change it.

Basically, I believe my earlier thinking was a product of my time. I grew up in the 70/80s and - while now isn't perfect by any means - my god I grew up in a rape culture. Every message I recall hearing about rape focused on women's behaviour - except the really 'bad' rapes where the woman's behaviour was seen to be impeccable and so there was nowhere else for the blame to go. Even the classic 'dragged off the streets at night' trope was put down to women's behaviour - they should have got a taxi, what's a decent woman doing out at night?

Date rape was unheard of. Rape in marriage was either legal or only just illegal, can't quite remember.

I was sexually assaulted when I was 16 but I was drunk and put it down to 'just one of those bad experiences'. The only upside in that was I wasn't traumatised by the event - how could I be? I deserved it! I was drunk at a party. I had a short skirt on fgs! I shrugged it off and moved on.

The patriarchy really did a number on me, like.

But things are changing - not fast enough by any means, but they are changing. We can name the op's experience as rape. We can understand that digitally penetrating a drunk 16 year old who can't sit upright is sexual assault. We can send Ched Evans to prison.

So please - and I don't mean this to sound patronising - keep thinking, keep learning because it's only by raising our voices against rape culture that society will change. There will always be rapists, perhaps. But they won't get to hide behind a rape culture, confusion and shame.

(marital rape wasn't made illegal until 1991)

Thanks AF. I knew it was in my time but am on tablet so didn't want to go google and risk losing my (hideously long) post.

Thanks, yellowtulips.

Shaksa, do get angry. You should.

Date rape and partner rape, "not call the police " rape, as you put it, are often more psychologically damaging than stranger rape and have longer reaching consequences partly because the victim may feel like they are responsible in some ways because society tells them that and also because society tells them that it is less "serious". It is confusing and they feel guilty for feeling so bad when no one held a knife for their throat.

Victims of date rape who take some responsibility for what happened (I wasn't clear, I shouldn't have been drunk) are far more likely to become victims again than those who accept that it was rape. Victims often take responsibility not just because society tells us women should take responsibility for men's behaviour and keep ourselves "safe", taking responsibility is also a psychological protective mechanism (it won't happen again if I stop drinking, dress conservatively, don't walk home alone) to make us feel that we can stop it happening again. Whereas, thinking like that actually makes women more vulnerable.

I'm sorry I don't have time to search out the research to back that up and link to it.