Rape? Or am I just an idiot? Or both? (may be graphic)

[bringoutyourdead]

NC. Hope it works. Apologies for typos etc haven't slept, probably still under the influence and freezing cold fingers.

I probably haven't posted in the right place but I post quite a bit in relationships and know people are straight forward and/or supportive if necessary.

I went out for my work Xmas do last night. I drank quite a lot. I was supposed to stay at a friends but didn't. I went with a strange man (boy? Man? He was probably younger than me). I dont remember how I got talking to him or where or why. I just remember being in a taxi with him, and a friend calling and me explaining I wouldn't be going to the other friends with them. Anyway we ended up at a house (not his by what he said?) and having sex. It was not the drunk casual sex I had planned or like. Basically we had anal sex. I am agreeable to it sometimes but it's the sort of thing I "reserve" for LTRs when there's trust etc. I remember hitting him quite a few times for hurting me (like hits to the body) and saying "ow" etc. He was asking questions like is that good (in the "sexy" not caring way)....and I was saying no. But I never said "dont have sex with me" i dont think.

I stayed and was sick a lot in the night. I left a few things there (because they were covered in my sick anyway) and snuck out in the morning. I didn't have any cash with me so couldn't get home. I knew roughly where I was and after walking for about an hour found a cash machine and a bus stop.

I'm home now and safe but in some pain. I noticed after that he had used baby oil as a lube (pretty sure that affects condoms?) so pain wise it could be worse. I have burns on my knees presumably from carpet. I was sort of led face down on it in a living room.

I dont even know why I'm posting now that I've told "the story". I feel really confused about what happened. I think he took advantage a bit and that's making me angry. I'm so angry at myself, though. Is what happened rape, or me being an idiot? A work friend text to check I was ok. I didn't know what to say, can't exactly explain.

I don't know what I want. Someone to tell me I haven't done anything wrong and I'll forget about it soon enough. But I know I've been a dick and it's going to play on my mind

OP, just read through and I am so sorry. I can understand why you have not gone to the police. I can I understand the anxiety. I can fully appreciate that the guy you met is a raping pig. It is going to be ok. Get your STD tests. Get sone rest and some peace (easier said than done). One foot in front of the next. Sending you a big hug xx

Thank you catty.

I have written things down now. I said I would last night but put it off. I was struggling to write anything (for work) tonight as the recollections were intruding (?) so I thought writing it might get it out of my head a little bit.

It is not just that it happened, and I feel to "blame". It is also that I know I shouldn't feel to blame. I feel like I've failed myself in what's happened (which is blaming myself) and then also that I've failed myself by thinking that way. An annoying cycle.

I am the sort of person who would be telling friends (in an anyfucker) manner not to minimise what happened to them, and call men/people out on their behaviour. I should understand consent (well I do, I've been in court when a judge explains it to a jury) and I also have never (apart from the occasion on which I was physically incapable) put up with shit sex or anything I didn't want. I am a relatively sexually assertive person. I think that is what I was trying to do by the very "cold" (almost?) "no"s and "it hurts" and the "fuck off" at the end. It feels empowering to not be affected or to pretend not to be affected by something which....maybe someone wants you to be affected by (but maybe not).

And now I wish it hadn't made a difference but I don't feel brilliant. I am not sitting in my bedroom crying but I don't normally cry at all and have been on and off yesterday and today. I haven't got any work done. I made myself walk the normal dark way with the dog because I'm not letting something stupid make me do anything differently but the movements of the balls on my hat (you know the ones, that dangle past the ears?) made me jump. I can be paranoid and a little anxious sometimes anyway though.

I have cancelled coffee with a friend tomorrow afternoon but am still going out in the evening with the other person. I've been looking forward to it for a few weeks. If I feel like it is or is going to have an effect on my relationship with him (well, relationships generally) then I shall have to speak to someone to try and work through that because I can't be doing with having all of my social/romantic relationships ruined by some twat.

Apologies for the angry tone of the post I am basically swinging from dead inside to very angry to very upset today and the very angry side is the side that felt most inclined to post evidently.

Twat?

OP i do agree with the others in what constitutes rape. I do believe in what they are saying in all regards of what constitutes as non/consensual. I do believe in what they say that women most likely will minimise their experience for fear of ridicule and wrongful self shaming. I have never disputed that!
But I can't understand still why you would call him a twat. When rapist is what all have told you he is. A twat by definition is an idiot or a person who does stupid actions.
Why aren't you angrier here. I simply don't understand your lack of anger! Or your clarity that it was a rape.
That is what is bothering me in THIS recollection.

Why does it bother you middle? You seem to have an agenda but I'm not sure what it is.

There is no script dictating how you should feel after being raped. Everyone is different and every rape victim processes what has happened to them in their own way. For what it's worth, lurching between shock, numbness, rage and desperate sadness sounds familiar to me.

I agree with almost all Bsharri says, but I think women do have a responsibility for being clear regarding consent (unless obviously comatose in which case there is no consent). Men should walk away if there is any doubt, but they are not mind readers, and cannot be expected to know what we are thinking. The vast majority of consensual sex I have had in my life has not involved formal verbal consent, and there has been rough, occasionally painful consensual sex at times as well. I think that's reasonably common.
I know it's the minority view here, but I think that only OP knows if this man was having sex with her knowing that she wanted it to stop (rape) or whether he was sober enough to know she was too drunk to consent (also rape) or whether they were both so bombed that neither one of them was capable of any decent judgement or communication, but both still encouraged and consented to the sex, and whether she initially consented to anal sex, later changing her mind without being clear that she wanted it to stop (which makes it rubbish, regrettable sex, but not rape).
All the people in the world telling her she has been raped doesn't make it so if she believes deep down that he is just a rubbish shag with porn-fuelled ideas of what women enjoy who genuinely didn't realise she was having a totally shit time and wanted him to stop, because she never said so.
The trauma OP is experiencing could be caused by any number of things
Accepting responsibility for terrible, unsafe decisions, and the knowledge that what was a horrible, unwanted outcome might possibly have been even worse. That's traumatic.
Being raped is traumatic.
Also traumatic would be living with the responsibility of making a serious, life-destroying allegation I wasn't sure about
I think it is a good idea for OP to talk to a professional to help her tease through the details of what happened, I don't think people posting here should be telling her what did and didn't happen when they were not present.

My Empire - I don't disagree that in the normal course of events that's what a man should do, just as in the normal course of events a woman would say "stop now". However, my point is that in this case the OP didn't do that because she was very drunk and it seems reasonable for those people who weren't there to be open to the POSSIBILITY that in his case he was equally drunk and completely misread the situation.
I'm not saying OP wasn't raped, and I'm certainly not saying that if she was, HER drunkenness or even HIS drunkenness diminishes his responsibility - if she made him aware she wanted him to stop and he didn't then she was raped.
By some of the definitions here, my husband (the kindest most gentlemanly man, but somewhat clumsy) has raped me, when clearly that is not the case or he would be long gone. I think there are more grey areas here than the many people projecting their own experiences onto the OP want to acknowledge.

I find it a bit worrying that so many people are picking out the bits they choose and declaring they know what happened, and shocked that you so quickly dismiss the wisdom of sitting down with someone objective and trained for some professional support and help to work through what happened when OP is clearly very affected by what happened. Are you afraid they might not give her the same message as you?
This really isn't an appropriate forum for her to try to clarify and work through her feelings and the facts of what happened. People here are not trained counsellors and many people here have, by their own admission, been very affected by their own terrible experiences.
And I stand by my belief that if you are going to essentially destroy someone's life then she would want to be very sure in herself, and not talked into it by other people, not for only for his sake, but also for OP's.

Emma...you are making stuff up now

1. all through this thread right from the beginning there has been a theme of virtually every new poster that arrived urging op to seek professional help, no discouragement of that course of action has occurred

2. op has been pretty clear in more than one post that she will not be reporting this incident to the police so this man is not in any danger of having his life ruined. The only person at risk of that at the moment is op herself

Any more falsehoods you want to throw in to uphold your "argument" ?

Emma, your posts have made me very angry and very upset for a few reasons. Perhaps I shouldn't be replying straight away, but I am. Empire and AF have responded to the points of principle, so I'll stick to the personal.

... whether she initially consented to anal sex, later changing her mind without being clear that she wanted it to stop (which makes it rubbish, regrettable sex, but not rape).

I consented - cautiously - to anal. I can't remember what I said when he went too hard, but he probably didn't hear me anyway. He was lying on top of me and my face was squashed into the pillow. I know I was whimpering and crying; he could not have mistaken this for enthusiastic participation. I had the impression he'd forgotten who I was, or that it was a real person under him - or, more accurately, didn't care. Fearing injury, I went as limp as possible. He injured me anyway.

He was my husband.

By some of the definitions here, my husband (the kindest most gentlemanly man, but somewhat clumsy) has raped me

This is upsetting. If your husband distresses you in any way during sex, I think he would know, wouldn't he? Would you expect to have to carry on, distressed? Very sad to hear, if so. I hesitate to suggest you have redefined rape, so as to normalise some unhappy experiences - but millions of women have done this, as discussed above.

I hope, however, that it's not the case and you were being flippant or dishonest.

My comment was based on the statement 'I think the immediate aftermath is often too confusing for counselling to be of much use, but it depends'. coupled with a series of very directional posts about how OP should be feeling based on a personal experience of how someone else felt after she was raped. Do I think it is well intentioned, yes, clearly it is, but do I think it's appropriate? No. I'm sorry, but I don't.

I think all the encouragement for OP to seek professional help is fantastic and the warmth, concern and moral support is wonderful, but it is not trained counselling, and in a professional context usually a counsellor would guide the client towards developing her own awareness and understanding of the incident rather than defining it for her, which is why I think that in the absence of such professional help the many posts telling her that she was definitely raped are not ideal. If she has doubts as to whether this was actually the case (as her opening post suggests), then these posts might be adding to her confusion and trauma and undermining her confidence in her own judgement rather than alleviating it.

I am categorically not making a case that OP wasn't raped or being an apologist for rapist men abdicating responsibility for their actions and blaming either the woman or drunkenness. OP says she was drunk, but not too drunk to consent to sex and she consented initially. The law hinges on whether the man could reasonably be expected to have understood that OP had withdrawn consent at some point. All that I'm cautioning is that the only person who can answer that with the full understanding of the dynamic of the conversation up to that point, of any expectation they created for the type of sex they liked or were planning to have and the nature of the consensual sex itself up to the point that OP wanted it to stop, is OP, and nobody who wasn't there should be putting words into her mouth.

So no, no more 'falsehoods' just a differing opinion on how best to support a stranger going through a very, very traumatic time.
Most importantly, I hope OP does get the help and support she needs from whatever source she feels comfortable with, and overcomes this horrible experience however SHE ultimately defines and deals with it.

my empire, I am directing this at you purely because you have asked me why?

I have no agenda. I have nothing but sympathy for those on the thread who have experienced rape. You have no idea if I have and have assumed not. I do not need to recount any experience I have or use them to claim to be an expert on individual scenarios.

What I am an expert on is Transactional Analysis. I will explain that in my professional everyday life a role I examine tel conversations/transcripts etc for fraudulent behaviour. As I have been doing this for many years it is very difficult not do it in my personal 'off duty' life. I put my point of view across and am always open to correction. I'm human. Here the OP has written herself and given an account and also I am reading her words. Words that some may see as irrelevant or interpret differently. It is the understanding behind why those words are chosen. People subconsciously use certain words when giving an account or more so when reciting a very personal experience.

So with that information you can choose to call me whatever names you want. What I take exception to is that you have automatically told me I have no idea what I am talking about because you assume I have no experience of rape. You have so that makes you privy to seeing the signs. We are all aware of what rape is. We do not need you or the others to list them over and over in this forum so that your voice is heard. I am not minimising your experience in the slightest but you have to understand that you have a conflict of interest here which makes you very passionate about this topic. The man in question was automatically seen as a vile man, through his want for anal and his language. (s&m and dominatrix are very much liked by people in sex and if indeed he watches too much porn will feel from possibly the conversations with the OP prior that she is a woman who enjoys outside the box sex.Again I am not minimising this, I am speculating.
But you cannot tell me I am wrong in saying what I say, or getting the OP to further examine her memory and her account of the night. I believe the OP should seek counselling. I believe the counsellor would take things through.Would not, if professional, immediately analyse this as rape. What has happened here is what many parents do to children. Let me explain, you say to a child 'did you do that because you wanted xyz'. There is no point to this question. The parent has automatically answered for the child. So the child does not need to think for themselves as it has been provided and will go along with one of those good sounding answers. I believe if the OP had been given a chance to elaborate a little more before the stark rape accusations were put into the thread that she might have given us more information and I think you might have found yourself confused as to what really happened.
The reason I feel this is the wording. I have asked OP why she doesn't feel more anger. You have said people go through many emotions. I agree. However from the start her language chosen has been subconciously minimising. You will say self blame. She is by her own definition 'an assertive woman' 'who never puts up with shit sex', I believe her account his tainted by drink/memory and also her frustration at not being in a position of 'empowerment'.
After much advice from people who HAVE experienced. She has not taken their advice to seek any form of assistance and not sought medical attention, you have advised her on STI and internal injury. If I had to choose one sentence to clarify from the OP it would be "I'm not letting something stupid make me do anything differently "
I am not saying I'm right, you are right. We simply don't know. But what the OP is saying after you giving her all this advice is what happened to you was something stupid. I'm not sure that would sit well with me as a rape victim who has given her advice/time and compassion.

So you're saying, in effect, that bring might have consented to the whole procedure even though she protested against it?

Also that posters shouldn't reply to threads you find uncomfortable except to say "see a counsellor"?

This looks to me like a desperate effort to continue telling women they don't know their own minds & bodies, while shutting down discussion of the matter. I'm happy that the law's not confused about consent, although so many posters seem to be.

I think MAC is also implying that the language used by OP is twanging her "fraud" radar.

My 10:47 reply was to Emma.

I'm not an expert in TA, middle, but I do understand it. As you employ your skills in seeking out fraud, is there a possibility that your own 'Parent' might be over-keen to identify potential dishonesty (albeit unconscious) in OP's posts? If your training & experience have led you to look automatically for incongruous responses, this would explain your fixation on her apparent failure to be as upset/angry/sad as you think she should ... inappropriately, in this case, I'd say.