Rape? Or am I just an idiot? Or both? (may be graphic)

[bringoutyourdead]

NC. Hope it works. Apologies for typos etc haven't slept, probably still under the influence and freezing cold fingers.

I probably haven't posted in the right place but I post quite a bit in relationships and know people are straight forward and/or supportive if necessary.

I went out for my work Xmas do last night. I drank quite a lot. I was supposed to stay at a friends but didn't. I went with a strange man (boy? Man? He was probably younger than me). I dont remember how I got talking to him or where or why. I just remember being in a taxi with him, and a friend calling and me explaining I wouldn't be going to the other friends with them. Anyway we ended up at a house (not his by what he said?) and having sex. It was not the drunk casual sex I had planned or like. Basically we had anal sex. I am agreeable to it sometimes but it's the sort of thing I "reserve" for LTRs when there's trust etc. I remember hitting him quite a few times for hurting me (like hits to the body) and saying "ow" etc. He was asking questions like is that good (in the "sexy" not caring way)....and I was saying no. But I never said "dont have sex with me" i dont think.

I stayed and was sick a lot in the night. I left a few things there (because they were covered in my sick anyway) and snuck out in the morning. I didn't have any cash with me so couldn't get home. I knew roughly where I was and after walking for about an hour found a cash machine and a bus stop.

I'm home now and safe but in some pain. I noticed after that he had used baby oil as a lube (pretty sure that affects condoms?) so pain wise it could be worse. I have burns on my knees presumably from carpet. I was sort of led face down on it in a living room.

I dont even know why I'm posting now that I've told "the story". I feel really confused about what happened. I think he took advantage a bit and that's making me angry. I'm so angry at myself, though. Is what happened rape, or me being an idiot? A work friend text to check I was ok. I didn't know what to say, can't exactly explain.

I don't know what I want. Someone to tell me I haven't done anything wrong and I'll forget about it soon enough. But I know I've been a dick and it's going to play on my mind

If you think subconsciously minimising a rape is evidence that it didn't happen there is no point anyone having a discussion with you. You're not intelligent enough to be worth conversing with.

Or what Empire and AF said!

No, my husband would NEVER do what you described.
We both occasionally enjoy slightly rougher sex than usual, and very occasionally the level of roughness tips over from enjoyable to not enjoyable for me. The first time he didn't realise and was totally horrified when I was upset afterwards. Had I communicated more effectively 'during' he would have stopped in an instant, but as we have never had a particularly hard-core sex life, we had never had a need for a safe word or similar, we were both drunk, and he genuinely thought my protestations were me playing along. So no, I don't think I have normalised rape, but I do think I might have been very confused and traumatised if it had happened at the start of our relationship rather than in the context of me knowing him as well as I did when it happened. I think the issue of consent can sometimes be more complex than is convenient, and I also think there is a growing trend for the over-influence of porn in how people play out their sex lives, not just men who don't know the difference between reality and fantasy, but also women who consent to things they don't enjoy because they think that is what is normal or required of them. I think it is really worrying, and complex.
This is only in answer to your question and I am not drawing parallels between my experience and OP's issue, but I guess I see a bit more grey area in the whole area of sexual consent where some of the other posters see only black and white. But I think the fact that the law struggles to apply itself consistently in cases where the central issue is sexual consent suggests that I am not alone in being concerned about the grey areas, and personally I think we are far more likely to come up with solutions if we acknowledge that the grey areas exist, but that's not really the topic for this thread.

For you that think that saying NO! STOP! IT HURTS! is not rape??? I don't understand. Also you don't have to say anything you can be quiet and it can still be rape. I think people are confusing is it provable nor not as to whether it happened. They are not the same... take carexxx

Do not take what I said and use it to 'imply' anything on my behalf.
If you don't get what I said or you don't understand or don't want to fine.
Leave it at that and stick with your own agenda here. And by that, it is an agenda/campaign. I have not used my own experience of rape to clarify my points or strengthen my arguement. Because it is not what happened here.There are separate cases.

What I am astounded at is you still don't read the OP telling you that what happened was.....something stupid. The OP is minimising her own experience and yours and mine and anyone else. Mine was not stupid. It was something awful/horrific/upsetting as I'm sure yours was. For an articulate, strong, educated woman, she chose a very wrong word there that to me clearly implies we do not know the full story here.

Yes, because we all know women lie about being raped all the time, don't we? It's loads of fun, and there are lots of benefits for doing so. hmm

NO IT ISN'T. TO THOSE WHO REALLY EXPERIENCE IT. STOP THROWING RANDOM INCORRECT STATEMENTS OUT.

Thanks for your further reply, Emma.

The first time he didn't realise and was totally horrified when I was upset afterwards. Had I communicated more effectively 'during' he would have stopped in an instant

See, this is what I meant when I said my improved understanding of consent has afforded me confidence. I can totally empathise with what you're describing there, but these days I'd be roaring "Stop Now! Get off me, that hurts!"

The grey areas only exist where women feel afraid to withdraw consent. I agree porn is making this worse, by the way.

No, I don't see bring telling us that what happened was something stupid. I saw her struggling with self-blame.

MAC: If you don't get what I said or you don't understand or don't want to fine. Leave it at that and stick with your own agenda here.

Ditto. I haven't had at least one of my posts deleted though < shrug >

I can't be doing with having all of my social/romantic relationships ruined by some twat.
this is not self blame. this is minimising and a very casual approach to what you have explained to her is rape! So for me I cannot agree with her story.

THOSE WHO REALLY EXPERIENCE IT ???!!

You're still imposing your personal definitions of rape, middle. Rape is non-consensual penetration. (Other non-consensual sexual activities are sexual assault.) Rape with additional abuse is aggravated rape, rape with battery, and/or several crimes at once. Consent may be withdrawn, it may be conditional, and it may be withdrawn non-verbally.

I hope that's clear.

Fucking hell, middle, you really do insist on your exact form of words, don't you? As a TA expert, perhaps you'd do well to analyse that. Saying you disbelieve anyone who errs from your prescribed verbal forms is controlling & abusive. It probably works well enough when analysing fraud, though.

So you're saying, in effect, that bring might have consented to the whole procedure even though she protested against it?

Also that posters shouldn't reply to threads you find uncomfortable except to say "see a counsellor"?

This looks to me like a desperate effort to continue telling women they don't know their own minds & bodies, while shutting down discussion of the matter. I'm happy that the law's not confused about consent, although so many posters seem to be

The complete reverse.
I'm not uncomfortable at the OP, but I am uncomfortable at all the directional advice telling her what to think and feel.
I am saying that OP is clearly intelligent enough to know her own mind and body and as she alone knows the full context of what happened, she is capable of drawing her own conclusions. If she is struggling to do so then a decent counsellor will help her do that for herself but they would NEVER do it for her the way people on this thread seem to feel qualified to do.
Nowhere on any of my posts have I said she wasn't raped.
Nowhere have I informed her she was raped.
I have just suggested that she be allowed to process it for herself without everyone trying to impose their own agenda on her.
Do I have an agenda? Sure I do, or like most other people I wouldn't be engaged with this debate. My agenda is that there is too much grey area in the law and in the way we normally navigate sexual relationships.
If someone clearly says 'stop' or 'no' or 'I don't want to do X' or physically tries to fight off an assault/rape, or freezes because there is a threat to their safety if they do not submit, then and in law and morally all of these scenarios (and I am sure many others) are rape. However, there are lots of occasions when consenting adults have sex and are less clear about consent. Add drink to the mix and their ability (men and women) to communicate and react to more subtle signals might be impaired. There is also a growing interest in less mainstream sex, and this too can create grey areas which I think need to be talked about more.
I also think looking at consent and sexual assault in same sex relationships would be enlightening.
However, I am not imposing any judgement on the OP either that she should have done anything differently or that she did or didn't communicate to the guy effectively enough that she wanted him to stop or that she's an innocent victim of a rapist because I WASN'T there.
I'm thrilled that people want to offer OP support and respond with practical help such as clarifying the law or asking questions to draw out her account, but I draw the line at telling her what she experienced when none of us were there.
So no, categorically, I am not the one "telling women they don't know their own minds and bodies." I am the one saying please get help if you are still confused and troubled and need it to tease through what actually happened and how you feel and how to process the terrible experience, but ultimately OP will know for herself if she was raped.

Please middle tell me exactly what I have missed which will make you believe I am not falsifying my account.

The way I have posted is the way I speak and I think the way I normally post? (different NN) Someone said something about dark humour. I didn't even realise I'd done that, but if I have that is the sense of humour I have, so. Although I dont recall joking or feeling like joking about it.

I am sorry for using the word "stupid". The whole point was that I don't want what has happened (which I will accept was an assault but I am not comfortable naming as anything else, although I did experience it as something else..which everyone has made me feel better about) to become a massive deal. Who wants one night to start controlling so much? I don't mean to diminish anyone elses experience. I want to diminish mine.

I'm not sure what you mean by "outside the box sex". I am single. I have sex. The sex I have has to be casual by definition. Sometimes I've had a drink. I have once before gone home with a stranger for sex. That was about 5 years ago. I'm not into anything "outside the box"?? I certainly wouldn't be telling people I met what sort of kinky stuff I was into...because I'm not, particularly? Like I said I don't normally have anal sex (actually only ever have with one partner) so I am sure I wouldn't have done anything to suggest it was on the menu.

I don't mind people posting saying they don't think it was rape but just horrible sex and that I should speak to someone and telling me they hope I am okay, etc. They are still kind posts.

I'm not very happy with your posts which imply I am lying, or being dishonest, though. Why the hell would anyone do that? They're not kind.

And I just realised I accidently changed my name back to bring out your deaf instead of dead. Whoops.

MAC: you have just said you disbelieve a victim of rape. Shame on you.

no anyf i did not say i disbelieve a rape victim.
I do not believe the OP has divulged everything and therefore have not labelled this instance as rape/non rape. I cannot make a concrete decision based on the information here. And I won't.

OP - please help me understand. your last post contradicts your first post where you said.

It was not the drunk casual sex I had planned or like. Basically we had anal sex. I am agreeable to it sometimes

Middle, what is your agenda here? Why are you picking apart the OP's posts? She isn't on trial here. She is looking for support.

You don't believe her MAC. Stop badgering her and report her post as a troll post if you feel this strongly. It looks like you won't be satisfied until she throws her hands up and says "you are right, I wanted it really". There is something very, very wrong about that.

Where is the inconsistency?!

I was drunk. I am willing to have sex when drunk. I have had anal sex before.
Perhaps what I should have done is lied and said I've never had anal sex and never had sex before a third date. I was just trying to be honest?

alpa, similar to Emma that i'm uncomfortable at all the directional advice telling the OP what to think and feel and confirming that this is an open and shut case of rape with the hazy details the OP has provided. That's wrong to give advice like this to people.

bring, perhaps you should have lied and said you were a virgin nun who got nabbed from a dark alleyway and penetrated at knifepoint

it looks like anything varying from that is not "rape" to some people, or an indication that you are a liar

Bringout personally, I would ignore the posts from middle. I don't think this poster is here to help.

"you are right, I wanted it really".
No way anyf. That is not what i want her to say and how dare you think i would.

How dare you imply she is deliberately missing vital information out.

Since we're getting into semantics, having "nothing but sympathy" for victims of rape strikes me as minimising actually. MAC take a step back, what are you doing?