You are not responsible for the rape or sexual assault you endured

[differentnameforthis]

In light of many threads about Ched Evans' & his victim & in light of those who believe she could have prevented it by being sober (!), I thought it was important to raise this issue.

It doesn't matter if you were drunk
It doesn't matter if you were alone
It doesn't matter if you got into a taxi/car/train/bus with him
It doesn't matter if you went to a room with him
It doesn't matter if you knew him
It doesn't matter if you didn't know him
It doesn't matter if you started to have sex with him & said no
It doesn't matter if you had sex with him an hour/a day/a week before
It doesn't matter if you had sex with his friend
It doesn't matter what you were wearing

YOU ARE IN NO WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE RAPE/SEXUAL ASSAULT YOU ENDURED.

We believe you

So rather than telling women the ways in which they can "prevent" rape (which by the way actually do nothing to prevent rape, the vast majority of rapes happen in situations where the people know each other) shouldn't we be discussing why we live in a society where so many men commit rape? Shouldn't we be discussing ways to stop men from raping?

All women know about the "don't get drunk" advice - they aren't idiots.

We live in a society which still challenges a victims decorum, attire and history to determine whether or not her abuser is guilty, that is wrong.

There's nothing wrong with teaching people to be careful, but it shouldn't be at the expense of teaching people that no always means no and that drunk people, sleeping people and minors can never give valid consent, because realistically in all cases, the fault lies with the abuser.

"I read on MN yesterday that a woman has every right to expect to remain unmolested if she gets into a man's bed with him. How much better would it be, if you don't want a particular man, to avoid getting into his bed in the first place."

I mean this pile of utter horseshit.

I get into bed with my husband every single fucking night of the week. This does not mean I bear culpability if he rapes me FFS.

If the children get into bed with us and he rapes them, would they be to blame as well?

Stupid fucking rape apologist arseholes.

And having a hilarious time winding up women on the net some of whom have said they have been raped. FFS.

Cailindana I apologize, although my comparison wasn't so much on the TV and your body, as the advice that would be given after the crime in both situations. I will use a different example though - Myself and an assault.

I've walked home alone quite drunk after a night out a few times along a route that was was concealed, very dark, away from a main road. If someone came up to me and attacked me, would you agree with me that it was the attacker was to blame, and not me for walking home on my own?

I think a lot of what you see as victim blaming is just crime prevention tips

Yeah, "crime prevention tips" that so usefully get trotted out after the crime has already been committed.

I think it's sweet that you actually believe that people who immediately start on about these "crime prevention tips" whenever rape is mentioned are trying to help reduce rape.

What they are REALLY doing is saying to all the other women hearing about (yet another) rape is:

"this won't happen to you, you don't need to be afraid, you don't need to react in any way to change a situation in which this is visited upon women. It won't happen to YOU. YOU are different. If you just take these magical steps that I reveal to you, then you will be SAFE."

And the subtext is - "these other women, THEY made mistakes (not like YOU). They walked with TIGERS. You are far too sensible to make the same MISTAKE."

And THAT is victim blaming.

Genuine anti-rape advice would be - don't ever go home, don't spend time alone with any men, no matter how well you know them.

To add, if it was actually true that not drinking/not wearing skimpy clothes/not going out alone helped to prevent rape then there would be fewer rapes in countries like Saudi Arabia that ban alcohol and force women to cover up. In fact, rape rates in those countries are significantly higher than countries where women "take risks."

Just read your post upthread cailindala.

I had a different experience in taht have been exceptionally uncautious and on those many occasions where I was exceptionally uncautious everything was fine. Why was that? Because none of the men I was with were rapists. And I had a tremendous time.

The times when things have happened to me have been times where I should have been "safe".

Make of that what you will.

All this safety first shite is magical thinking which draws rapists as some kind of bogeyman and severely curtails women's freedom and their finances and their fun. Fuck that. Basic advice to all people in terms of don't get so pissed you don't know what you're doing, don't go off with people who set off alarm bells, fine. Advice just for women which is unlikely to do anything except restrict their freedom and make them feel paranoid? Load of shit.

The thing that pisses me off is that if you take victim blaming to its logical conclusion, we all cover up, stop drinking, stop talking to men, don't go out at night - rape will still happen. So then the next stage is women should remain indoors, only go out with a chaperone, well there are countries like that in the world and do you know what, abuses of women in those countries are horrifying.

I don't want to live in a place like that. I want to live in a place where rapists are seen for what they are, rapists.

Cailindana I apologize, although my comparison wasn't so much on the TV and your body, as the advice that would be given after the crime in both situations.

What do you mean by advice given after the crime?

"I've walked home alone quite drunk after a night out a few times along a route that was was concealed, very dark, away from a main road. If someone came up to me and attacked me, would you agree with me that it was the attacker was to blame, and not me for walking home on my own?"

Of course the attacker was to blame. I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

but Aduaz as Seven has pointed out, even here on the Relationships board of Mumsnet FFS there are people expressing views that do attribute responsibility to the victim. That's why those 'prevention advice' posts on FB or police posters targeted at women are so invidious, because they take attention away from the perpetrator.

That's my experience too Seven. I was raped in my parents home, and in my own home by people known and trusted by me and my family.

The two women I know who were raped by strangers were raped in broad daylight when they were entirely sober and wearing ordinary clothes like jeans and a jumper.

Exactly. Up thread I said we should all stay indoors. No one comes back to argue about the logical conclusion of victim blaming from the apologist's side.

Mind you, if we all were indoors all the time, our TV's might not get nicked so often

cailindana we absolutely should be discussing ways to stop men and women from raping people, and discussing why we live in a society where it happens at all. I don't like that we have to give advice on what someone can do to lower their odds of being a victim but I see it as making the best of a bad situation. The bad situation being that rape happens in this society and while we should be trying to make it a society where it never happens, the best we can do while working towards that is to try and lower the chances of people being victims.

Ugh, inappropriate placing of my post.

caillindana

Your advice does not lower the chances of rape. All it does is make women feel like their actions contribute to rape. 90% of rapes are carried out by a person the victim knows.

If you want to give good "advice" on "how to prevent rape" then the advice is: don't go anywhere near men.

Aduaz the advice given out does not lower your chances of being a victim.

Have an example.

In London a few years back there was a poster campaign which showed a terrified face of a woman pushed up against a car window and exhorted women not to use unlicenced cabs.

On first glance, lots of people would say, fair enough.

Well, not so much.

These posters were massive and up in tube stations. Women making their daily commutes had no choice but to look at them. That is unpleasant and possibly triggering. Additionally, it reinforces an idea that women are prey which is just wrong on so many levels. In the tube stations, for hundreds of thousand of people to see, every day. No ads saying that men taking unlicenced cabs might be at risk of being robbed, or attacked, or raped. Not one. Just a woman's screaming face with mascara running down 2 metres high in the tube station.

Meanwhile, black cab driver John Warboys, one of Britains most prolific sex offenders, was active. So the advice was shit. The claim taht you were safe in a licenced cab was bollocks anyway.

cailindana we absolutely should be discussing ways to stop men and women from raping people

Men AND WOMEN?

Really?

Do you imagine we have a big problem with women rapists in this country?

(Hint: the crime of rape involves a penis, by definition)

Aduaz what advice do you have to give to men, who wish to avoid being raped?

Is there any particular style of clothing they should avoid, should they not ever get drunk in situations where it is, or could end up being, them and one other man?

cailindana in my example, you have agreed that only the perpetrator would be to blame if I got attacked. If family and friends then said to me that maybe I shouldn't have walked home alone being so drunk then I wouldn't see that as victim blaming, I would see that as good advice. The only thing I'd see as victim blaming would be if someone literally said to me "you deserved to be attacked and the perpetrator is not to blame"

FFS!!!

THE ONLY PERSON TO BLAME IS THE RAPIST

People wouldn't be raped IF rapists didn't RAPE. Seriously, what the FUCK is wrong with some people!!!!

It matters not if I am drunk, sober, if I am wearing a frock or smiling - whatever!! If I am IN THE ROOM WITH A RAPIST I will be RAPED. It is NOT MY FAULT. A decent human does not do that to another HUMAN. A rapist does.

EverythingsRunningAway I know that you need a penis to commit the legal definition of rape but it should be clear that in my post I am talking about women who force men to have sex against their will. It is as equally wrong and appalling as men who force women to have sex against their will, and it is real and it does happen. It would be ignorant to pretend that only men rape people.

middlethird exactly but you're missing the point. People DO commit rape, that is the unfortunate reality of the world we live in. I hope that one day we become a world where no one ever rapes anyone else, but right now that isn't the case.

"If family and friends then said to me that maybe I shouldn't have walked home alone being so drunk then I wouldn't see that as victim blaming, I would see that as good advice."

Really? Oh, in that case I think you are extremely odd. If I got attacked and rather than comforting me my so-called friends went on about what I did wrong I'd think they were fucking arseholes who I never wanted to see again.

Right so your advice is followed and no women in the UK walk home by themselves drunk ever again.

Do you think this will lower the incidence of rape in the UK?

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Do you think if you hadn't been walking home drunk that night, he would have not bothered, or do you think he would have found someone else? So you didn't get raped, but someone else did. In the scheme of things, at a societal level, that's not any better is it.

No, it would be accurate to say that only men rape people.

But now I get it - you are not a naïf, you are a rape apologist here with an agenda.