non-molestation orders- any views?

[thatsnotmynamereally]

I met a new solicitor yesterday reccomended through a friend as I wanted a fresh view on my impending (perhaps) divorce. The existing solicitor has drafted a divorce petition but it hasn't been served yet, for various reasons (mainly because I don't want to deal with having to move out and the inevitable nastiness that will ensue). When I met the new solicitor and told her about H's ongoing abusive and controlling nature she immediately suggested that I should get a non-molestation order in place ASAP and divorce issues could come after that. I'd been told the opposite by my other solicitor-- that we should test out his reaction to the divorce petition first and if needed other action could follow.

To be honest when she suggested this way forward I felt a surge of relief... as I see it the non-molestation order is a document that says spells it out for him in writing that he has to be a decent person. I can stay living in the house and he doesn't get a criminal record unless he brings it on himself. I know it's going to cost upwards of 2k but the other option (rather than inertia) is to rent a flat and move out which I've priced up at around 10k and there are cat/dog issues.

She said that there would be no real chance of getting an occupation order (property in joint names, no specific violence or recent threats) so I guess the non-mol would say that he had to stay out of my bedroom (to be decided I guess??) and not boss me around, yell, swear, make demands etc. He is emotionally abusive and controllling, not violent. I'm thinking it will be a warning shot before the divorce petition comes his way. I might also be naively thinking that him seeing it spelled out will give him some insight into the unacceptability of his behaviour.

I spoke to a local branch of WA legal advice before and they reccomended non-mol but I didn't take it further as theysaid they only would deal with legal aid cases. I think my existing solicitor's advice was due to not wanting to rack up more charges for me (fine) and him thinking that H would possibly be OK with divorce scenario.

TBH H says he would be fine with divorce scenario 'unless I try to nick half of HIS money' -- of course I am going to pursue with a vengeance my half of our assets, I'm not stupid and know what I'd be entitled to. So he'll be fighting me for money, definitely.

Any thoughts? Experiences?

Just to clarify - when I suggested serving all the papers when you're away, when I said 'move out' before you go, I did mean completely move out.

As Karen says he will trash your stuff when you're away, and anyway it would not be sensible to go back home to him.

Can I join in?

I didn't need to go down the Non-Mol route - but do have some idea of what it's like to be under a barrage of abuse.

Divorce is very stressful, and it makes us feel under a permanent siege.

Anything we do is misconstrued by the 'other side', and for some, brings out an incredible motivation to get 'revenge' or enter in some game of 'oneupmenship'.

So, a Non-Molestation order will definitely provoke a sense of outrage in those that deny or refuse to take any responsibility for their behaviour.

On the other hand, they are there to protect us when we are under seige to stop us from being pushed to a limit where our minds (and bodies in some cases) can take no more.

I think issuing the divorce, and then following up with a strongly worded letter (as TheName's did), is better as it is a tad less stark than a court-order. This is no different from my solicitor saying to me very firmly not to seek revenge, keep it calm and civil if I needed to respond at all in order to try to calm the other side down.

It is, and remains, very sensible advice. Voodoo aside, I try to stick with it.

echoing = completely move out.

it would not be sensible to go back home to him.

I completely agree with WWK - even though Rottie's letter was a full smack in the gob, she did also mention in it wanting to remain amicable and no issues with seeing the kids etc.

It's a blow, but a softer one than going straight to court and then he will then have to get himself a solicitor who will pick up the being amicable reigns from his side. All solicitors want to keep it 'amicable' at the start and even abusers will start off being amicable with their solicitor, what they change into further down the line though is anyone's guess.

How are you doing Thatsnotmyname? Hope you're ok

Yes, how are you doing? Hope you are a bit clearer about how to approach things. Do you think the new solicitor was a bit hasty? Also, how could they get the statement together so quickly? It takes us usually at least two weeks to do a new statement (but that's Toad for you, of course).

Many thanks all-- have been avoiding this update. I've just called solicitor and cancelled Wednesday... the scenario I was looking at was:

1. I spend all day Weds with sol writing up/presenting petition to court, he's served it that night.
2. on Weds night he is confused and surprised then v angry as there has been no recent terrible behaviour (just the ongoing low-level cr@p) and immediately goes into overdrive getting his side of the story in place
3. I live with Mr VeryAngryMan for 2 weeks until I go on trip
4. I go away and I have no idea what's going on in my absence. And no idea what I'm coming back to. H could stop building project (which would render one property much less value which he'd do if he thought it was going into the divorce pot) also he could figure out how to access his 'savings' (he doesn't know how to do that now with online account so account is safe) and spend it all/run it down in legitimate ways (building project could easily overrun and/or be expanded). Building project is keeping him occupied at the moment so he's diverted.

So anyway, I did what I said I would do and mentioned my trip to him. I decided that his reaction would determine whether I should proceed with Wednesday or not. I mentioned it at the end of a long-ish conversation about something else but I told him clearly and firmly with no details. His response was 'OK you're going without me' and I couldn't tell if that was a request, or a sarcastic comment on the fact that he's not included, he put the phone down, I've had a text from him saying he will be v busy today.

So he hasn't blown up in my face but I am watching and waiting. Spoke to a good friend yesterday who's kindly said I can keep some things in her house and stay with them on a moment's notice, they have got space, and it's a place I can get to work from so if theere's short term tension in the next week I can move in with them. In the mean time he's not at home now so I have peace and quiet. I don't want to throw money at finding another place to live right now. Divorce petition is ready to go, the trip to my parent's was not planned with any regards to a divorce timetable-- it's just what worked for them. So if he behaves reasonably we continue and I plan any bomb-dropping for my return. If he doesn't I have plan B of moving out and serving non-mol and divorce before I go, then going all the same, with DS/cat with my friend if necessary, and my things in storage (I already have a storage unit) and a plan to get perhaps an occupation order as well, when I return from my trip. Sorry for the mammoth ramblings, am at work and just thinking out loud. Apologies to anyone who thinks I am backtracking, I think that the solicitors hadn't thought things through from my point of view, as rosy a picture as the non-mol painted the fact is that he would have had a real advantage to pre-plan finances etc with me out of the country and in dealings like this the element of surprise is important.

For all it's worth, this sounds very sensible. As I said before, while you are out of the country, you won't need any non mols, but when you are back, you may. I am not sure about this solicitor. How can they be sure they get the application right at such short notice? We usually take weeks to carefully document every detail?

In any event, I don't think you are backtracking. Just look forward to your holiday now, keep smiling in front of H and don't say anything regarding divorce now, as you obviously need the element of surprise and you do not want him to squirrel away assets while you are away or to dump all your things outside the house or whatever he may be up to.

I think your nice as pie approach will stand you in good stead for now.

Yes absolutely, agree with Karen - keep up the act and be sure of your path - I would have occ order, non mol and divorce papers served all at once - non mols don't have the power to kick him out of the house unfortunately, occ orders do but they are harder to get, you literally need to go and have a breakdown in front of your GP and get them to write a letter in support of one because of the damage this man is doing to your mental health.

All stuff to think about while you're away from him and able to think clearly anyway

Karen exactly what I'm wondering, I'm not being money-ist about it but these new solicitors wanted to do everything in 1 day (for 2k inc vat to be paid by debit card on the day) and they didn't want to discuss alternatives, ie sending a letter first or waiting until I got back ('our office will be closed then for Xmas') when I went in last Friday. I'm not 'dumping' them as yet, it was really useful to get a fresh perspective on the case, I must admit I was a teeny bit pleased (as I'd brought loads of 'evidence') that she wanted to take an active approach but I think that the timing was off. And I've got 2 weeks before I go so if he kicks off in that time I can go into emergency action mode. And if he's angry, it will be because I'm going off to do something without asking, and I'm used to that sort of anger and I can 'deal' with it (which is why I want to divorce him anyway) and it won't be that he's angry because I have brought the full weight of divorce/injunction down on him.

I might question the solicitors further, as they seemed v keen to tell me that non-mol would protect me 100%, ie 'we've never known anyone not to comply with a non-mol', whereas when I proposed a letter first as name's solicitor (rotty) had done they said 'the last time we did that (issued a warning letter) the woman was killed that evening'. Hmmmm. I'm not saying they were lying, perhaps just trying to push me to take action, but I'm not actually a bit suspicious. I would have preferred to spend some money for an hour or so of their time to discuss it in a calm and rational way.

whoops I actually meant to take that last bit out, I'm not getting picky about the solicitors and their possible ulterior motives, I am trying to stay directional and not waver from some sort of a path that leads to freedom from his abusiveness!

Thanks name! Agreed, v important to keep a clear head. I'm calm at the moment and able to plan, would be freaking out if we were going to court on Wednesday.

seriously? they think that someone inclined to kill would actually take note of a non mol order? if the person is that way inclined they not going to be bothered by a non mol. that is simplistic. and a clever person can find ways to make your life misery while still complying legally...

anyway, so far you not fearing for your life...

you doing the right thin in going off on holiday and letting h believe you will come back and things will carry one. you don't want him doing things while you away.

however - take your passport etc over to your friend already and copies of other documents etc. you don't know what he might do while you away...he may be planning something too...

he might when learning of divorce -

1. get angry smash rant etc
2. cry promise to change beg you to stay etc
3. all of the above .
4. calmly accept and move out next day [frankly, unlikely, but you never know...]

have good break, going away will help you to see clearly.

Yes I agree too Cestlavie, it might well be that their client was murdered, which is just awful and unfortunately does happen in certain cases, but if these men are going to kill, then they will anyway and I am NOT in any way trying to scare you Thatsnot I had no idea what my H was going to do when I served the papers, it was the most nerve wracking thing I have ever been through, but you get to that point where you think, well, if he strangles me then at least I was on my way in getting out. Totally macabre I know, but when you're at that lowest point, your insides are telling you to just keep on regardless.

I'm still voting for serving the divorce papers with a strongly worded threat personally. And I'm not doubting your solicitors motives at all - but they do seem a bit heavy handed and forcing you into something that may just possibly make things worse. Remember with these orders that you need to go back to court to renew them every however long. A strong threat that your solicitor is on to him and he will be having his arse hauled into court at his own expense if he doesn't leave you alone and accept the divorce might just do the trick for you too. And then if he doesn't comply then that's what your solicitors then do and it doesn't cost you a penny. After all he's just breached their instructions so that would look even worse for him.

He will then have to go and get himself a solicitor who would be telling him to leave you alone, they would have their client's best interests obviously. You will be in the strong position that way.

You cannot seriously expect me to agree to an indefinite non-molestation condition? This was just dropped into my email from the previous recipient of a non molestation order. Just to demonstrate the attitude.

I think your current plan is a good solution. I am actually doubting your new solicitors. Ask WA how "they have never known anyone to breach a non molestation order". .

Oh yes, after the holiday, you will have to get organised. But in the meantime, enjoy your holiday and we will be here writing 'to do lists' for you on your return.

Actually yes Karen, I agree, i don't really like the sound of these solicitors at all, I know it must have been a relief to feel 'heard' Thatsnot but non mols are seriously bringing out the big guns, a scary warning letter first is surely the best way, he's not going to kill you, he's going to shit himself and go and get himself a solicitor.

No, this just doesn't sound good at all. I cannot see how you can draft a statement in one day and get to court by 1:30pm to see the judge?

And then, what would you do, if your application failed, because he hasn't actually done anything scary for a while. So what would the urgent reason be to go to court, if it's not even for serving the divorce papers and fearing his reaction? This doesn't sound like good advice on their behalf.

Yes I was told courts don't approve orders on the 'possibility' that he may turn scary when he receives the divorce papers. He has to be being scary right now - there are new laws coming in hopefully for women like us in these situations, but right now, a judge isn't going to render him homeless on the premis that he 'might' turn nasty - and then you're screwed. Nope, got to be a threatening warning first, create the timeline, if he doesn't comply then he's screwed, and in effect you have acted utterly reasonably by giving him a warning.

First of all I have to say it's nonsense that men don't breach non-mols.

However, I have to be honest, while I thought Rotty was ace, and she was excellent at at her job, threatening a non-mol worked ok on name's husband, but it simply would not work on many abusive men.

Toad has a non-mol and he doesn't take the blindest bit of notice of it.

From a sol's pov if a client's husband is abusive it makes sense to do an injunction, it's quite standard. If you look at Adorably2014's thread her solicitor is also doing divorce plus non-mol. If the husband kicks off the police arrested obliged to deal with it. However, I don't agree with the OP's sols about timing and I think it would be more sensible to serve the divorce papers and order together.

Yeah think you're right Twink, I don't know op's backstory, but of course simply threatening some men will mean nothing in their eyes (bastards!)

But yes, definitely divorce papers with orders at same time (or threats of orders)

Thanks to all for the insight and information. Karen that is interesting about the statement and time it takes, I'd asked her what she needed in terms of police reports (H had caution almost exactly a year ago for threatening me, he still thinks he did nothing wrong and thinks he was victim) I asked if she wanted diary of incidents but she said no, I suppose they have a format that works for them, but I was given no details. I guess it's a standard procedure for them as she was keen to do it in a day. Anyway, I've cancelled, no one called to discuss or ask why. name I'm going to do exactly that when I get back, divorce (assuming he is still a d*ckhead and doesn't have a miraculous conversion, face/body/personality transplant by the time I'm back) letter threatening and all orders ready to launch at a moment's notice.

I'm wonderfully tired tonight as I went to gym after work then had simple meal with DS consisting of whatever we fancied from the kitchen, then I did ironing in front of the TV and I got to choose what I watched things I don't usually get to do, life is sweet for the moment but I've been nervously checking my phone for a reaction on th trip, none as yet.

Just imagine you could have an evening like this every day, I do now! A year ago I would still be in the kitchen, cleaning and doing dishes and perhaps sorting out uniforms and ironing Toad's shirts. I never got to watch television.

I think this new solicitor seems really odd. You would require GP records, supporting letters, your diary, any incidents, recent events, all detailed in your statement. They did not want a copy of a police report that is a clear proof how angry he can get towards you and that he may do this again? I bet he will get even angrier, when you serve the divorce papers.

When I went in a week ago for consultation I took all my police cards but she didn't look at them, didn't ask about GP although its on my records there, not for injury but embarrassingly I saw the computer screen last time I went in to discuss a longstanding problem with my wrist and it said something about domestic violence on the top of the page . Nope she didn't want anything from me except to turn up with my debit card! To be fair I think I told a pretty convincing story (still wondering if I hammed it up a bit) and I played her a phone message he'd left proving him to be a shouty ranting man. But no violent threats. She still seemed convinced I'd get non mol but not an occupation order.

karen I'm so glad your evenings are peaceful, toad-free and pleasurable now, hope you kick that toad to oblivion this week!

The more I think about it, I'm relieved to had dropped the non mol idea for now. But I'm keen to build on the idea of getting everything set up for my return. I had a text from H last night complaining that I hadn't called him (I had sent 2 texts day-evening asking him how things were going, had no response) so I think he's preparing to go into abusive mode (accusing me of not caring and not paying enough attention to him) and he'll use the trip against me. Got to be strong, it's going to be tricky. I have no intention of extending an invitation to him. But it does confirm things and for me in a nicely public way-- what sort of man throws a strop because his wife is visiting her elderly parents?

Ok so the wife didn't ask permission. But that's because she cares about her parents and was overcome with a need to see them, as her sister had indicated that her dad was not doing too well (no specific details!) and perhaps she and sister need to talk about how their care will be handled as they age, as the sister lives near the parents and the wife lives many thousands of miles away in the uk and has thus absolved herself of parent-care roles. Which isn't fair to sister and not the intention of the wife! In fact the wife would have keen to make more of a link for the kids to her homeland (and theirs by birthright) but her H has effectively prevented this by insisting that any trips over be planned as 5* bells and whistles tours of vast areas not just simple visits to stay in parents house as per a parental visit would normally require, despite the cost of plane tickets making any trip by its nature a big cost. Apologies for going all third person here but I'm trying to see this form an outside perspective!

What sort of man would object to that-- a man who deserves a divorce, that's who! Oh and perhaps an injunction or two as well. He's being very funny about money at th moment, as he runs his own firm they choose when to pay themselves and I could see that stopping, or maybe I'm reading too much into it.