MIL problems..

[Happymum1985]

Thought id post here as really feel at a loss about what to do.. Sorry for the essay, its been going round and round in my head.

My DH is an only child and has always had a close relationship with his mum. She has had a troubled life and because of this, has quite a few issues. Up until DS was born last year, I found her hard work and quite demanding, but we managed to get along fine and I always made effort to see her and have contact with her because having a relationship with her was important to me.

Looking back there were signs she possibly didnt like me, because her reaction when DH told her about our engagement and pregnancy were very odd (she said she was busy and would call back later and hung up the phone). There was the odd thing like her wanting to go on holiday (on her own) with DH for two weeks (two years in a row) and expecting him to go down and stay with her a week before DS was born to 'dig holes in her garden' ?! But again, I tried to be tolerant of all this. She is on her own and doesnt have friends so I understood she was lonely.

Once DS had been born it started to go downhill fast. She came to stay with us the day I got out of hospital even though I had specifically said no visitors. When I got back and she showed up, I didnt have the energy/ didnt want to cause a scene so bit my tongue. She then proceeded to stay for 4 nights and didnt lift a finger to help, wanted to hold DS all the time when I was still in the stage when I felt like I wanted to bond with him and hold him all the time. There was a time il never forget when my DH had popped out and she said she was hungry and me- the mug- was trying to bend down to get plates etc and prepare lunch for her 5 days after a c-section whilst she held DS. Every time she came to stay subsequently she was the same- expecting hotel service and not understanding things had changed.

The last time I saw her was 4 months ago when she came to stay and everything exploded. In a nutshell, she had worked herself up into a rage- we didnt realise- because she wanted time alone with my DH and apparently she had told me this in the morning and we had agreed she could have this time alone with him (i do also find this slightly rude!) -I had totally forgot about this so rather than saying anything she had got really angry. Anyway, i was cooking and passed DS to DH. As I did so, she snatched DS out of my arms and stormed past me saying DS needed to sleep and DH was exhausted. I was fuming, DS started crying and DH sat there like a shell shock victim not knowing what to do. I stormed up after her and retrieved DS (I dont know what came over me but i was shaking in rage). She then stayed upstairs for about half an hour and DH took her out for a walk. On this walk she slagged me off and basically told him she wouldnt be coming to stay again as she found me stressful to be around, that I was a bad mother, a nasty person etc and tried to stir problems between my DH and I by saying I didnt seem to want to spend time with him..

Since she left we have had zero contact. My DH told her that she owed me an apology. She refused to apologise which infuriated me more, and made no contact. It is my DS birthday in a couple of weeks and she said she wanted to come up to see him on his birthday. We have told her we are having a family day but that she can visit around the time of his birthday. She then asked if she could stay at our house (she has no shame!!). My DH said he would speak to me.

When he got back to her and said no, and pointed out to her that she had previously said she couldnt bear to stay with us and would stay in a hotel for her next visit, she announced that she had already booked her train ticket. She then said she didnt have enough money to stay in hotel (rubbish) and said she would meet me for a coffee before staying at our house to 'sort things out' My DH pointed out that she was being a little naive by thinking all could be forgotten after a quick coffee...she also upset my DH by saying its hurting her that he is 'choosing me over her'. He told me last night that it feels unnatural to tell his mum she cant stay.

Am I being unreasonable? Am I doing the right thing? I have stuck to my guns and said she is welcome to come and see DS around his birthday and that I will meet up with her to talk but that she is not welcome to stay. I don't trust her and feel like she is someone that enjoys drama and creating problems and her demands on my DH's time are not conducive to a normal functional relationship. I don't hate anyone, but I think I might hate her.. I just have so much anger and resentment there that I don't know if I can get rid of... I know things cant go on like this but I cant bear her and dont know how to move forward...

If this scares you, good! That's my intention. You are dealing with someone who is unhinged, that's putting it nicely. Please, please be very careful with this woman. Do NOT be alone with her or let your child be alone with her.
These people are not just in films, they are Mrs/ Mr average living down the road.
Just be thankful that she doesn't live round the corner. And for those of you who think she's just someone who loves her son and wants more of him, your wrong. No amount of chats over coffee can put her right.
Just an aside: my late mil would rub herself against my oh with her arms around his neck. Not nice.

Hi Happy. looking at this with a positive spin - you could be going through a very promising transition period now (think labour - it gets better before it gets worse).

So you've moved from:

• Your MIL excludes you and is rude to you/generally gets her way/DH thinks everything is grand.

To:

• MIL's behaviour is being called out, OP is setting boundaries and DH is starting to acknowledge the situation.

If you make it through this period you will hopefully arrive at:

• OP and DH acknowledge that the MIL relationship needs to change, have methods to discuss things, set boundaries as a family and things are generally much better.

My DH and I went through this transition a few years ago and it was HARD. These are deep seated dysfunctional behaviours, I wouldn't expect them to change overnight and I wouldn't expect it to be pain free.

That said, I am not issuing your DH with a carte blanche to behave appallingly because of this. But if you want to stay with him, then I think you'll have to expect some choppy waters in your relationship now as you go through this period. Of course, DH has to realise that things that are done and said can't be undone and unsaid, but he may lash out (verbally) and I think so will you.

My DH and I went through our transition a few years ago and it was pretty awful. In our 10 years together it is the only time I have seen him cry. He also tried to break it off with me rather than face his mother. He hurt me a lot, not with anger but by being cold cold cold. It took us a couple of years to finally get through it properly and now I feel we are a team against MIL, but to be honest there are still isolated incidents where he can really annoy me by kowtowing to her and disregarding boundaries we've set for the family. Sometimes he doesn't even see a boundary being broken, narcs are crafty. But the point is that things got quite weird and quite dicey as my DH started facing up to these things. His carefully cultivated emotional calm was being hacked to pieces. And that would hurt anyone. I defy anyone to go through that without being even a little bit shitty to those around.

The giving birth analogy is actually quite apt. He now needs to go through a second separation from his mother, an emotional rather than physical one. Most (?) men have done this before they meet their DW but many men haven't, leading to these problems. When I started dating my DH in our mid twenties, she still bought his clothes, filled the fridge, cleaned his flat (which she owned), booked his holidays etc. She still tries to do all these things, but DH now recognises them as inappropriate [off topic, but she bought him some trousers latest last week - why?!?].

So, what helped us get to this point - well, slowly my DH started engaging, and I cross my fingers that yours will too.

One thing that helped us was that I trawled through the narc literature and found some succinct and not-too-emotive information that I felt well described his DM's characteristics and his relationship with his DM. I asked him to sit with me and showed him this (all on one page) and could see him thinking: yup yup yup yup yup.

I think it helped that he could then see it from the outside, as a recognised situation, in its structural form and not focus on the isolated emotive issues we discussed.

We had been looking at the symptoms and I showed him the disease.

Importantly, I then showed him some information how others in that situation had successfully dealt with it: the cure!

To be honest, no one likes being presented with problems. We don't know what to do with them and they make us angry/sad/helpless etc. But being presented with a potential solution is far easier for people to work with.

We can apply our rational minds to moving forward rather than spinning in place, using our emotive minds on the problems.

So I will have a look through the literature this weekend to see if I can find some links that describe his particular relationship with his DM, in a form that he might accept. Maybe that will help?

and

Fingeronthebotton

Actually the santa's hat makes it look more like a caroller than a shocked NancyDroop.

That is awful DM behaviour, truly gross.

4th message in a row - oops. It obviously gets WORSE before it gets BETTER. ffs.

Up to this point MiL has been a master puppeteer with you all dancing on her strings. Now, you've started cutting your strings but DH is still 'happily' dancing along. You've started cutting yours because you have a child to protect and you don't want MiL putting those strings on him! And she will try!

DH is clutching close at his strings because they are 'security', they are 'safe'. His mother has always ruled his life and has created an unhealthy co-dependency with him. She has him believing that everything she does is for him, when it's actually the other way 'round. Frankly, it will take something almost nuclear to break that. And DH is going to have to WANT to break it. Right now he doesn't. After all, why would you want to stop something that makes you feel like the center of someone's universe and trade it for something in which you are NOT the center of someone's universe? Because as adults we walk side-by-side with our spouses/partners, we don't 'orbit' around each other in exclusion of everyone else in our lives. If you think about it, what a threat your DS must appear to her!! Here is someone who DH should put above her. What will she do? She must create that same unhealthy relationship with your DS, where SHE is the center, not him! That is NOT something you should facilitate by sending them off to her to play happy families!

It's obvious that now DH wants to just put his bad behaviour behind him without truly owning it. He's may some materialistic gesture that you were supposed to accept gladly and 'never mention 'it' again'. When you failed to do so, you sent him into a tizzy and he called you a name. When will you realize that your job is to make everything 'easy' for him, just like his mother does? (that's sarcasm, btw )

I think you do need time away. If you feel you can talk to you mum, do so. If you have a friend or relative who can listen with an impartial ear, talk! But I think you should realize that your marriage is pretty much at an impasse. Neither of you is going to give in on the issue of his mother, even though you are right and he is wrong. Try counseling, by all means, if he will go. But, imho, you need to start making preparations for your own future.

Nancy is right that there has been some improvements and that it won't happen overnight. It's not all doom and gloom and at least you know what your dealing with and what to expect.

As always Fierce Cork Woman has an excellent description:

narcissisticmil.wordpress.com/tag/emotional-incest/

Part 1 is about Parentification, which your DH may have experienced with an alcoholic mother, but Part 2 is the most relevant: the Surrogate Spouse.

I don't think this is a candidate for showing your DH, it is too emotive, but it is an interesting read.

I really see my DH's situation in the Surrogate Spouse description: FIL is so humilitated by her (she always says he is Academic, her phrase for good-for-nothing, but not quite coming out with a derogatory phrase = clever) and yes, as mentioned MIL still tries to build a happy nest with DH, which is completely frustrating!

Some phrases I've now come across, which are used the label the relationship I think OP has described between her DH and his DM:

Emotional incest
Covert incest
Enmeshment
Co-dependency
Spousification

(note, I have no qualifications in this field at all, just doing some reading...!)

How are you Happy ?

How was your weekend Happy ? I'm guessing no news probably means bad news, hope I'm wrong.

Hi Happy hope you are ok. Let us know?

Hi all, sorry for my lack of contact- I wasnt getting email alerts to say anyone had posted! I am ok.. better than I was because I'm feeling stronger. I have been seeing friends and keeping busy.

I have also been reading lots on the subject as you all advised and have spoken to my mum. My mum has recently retrained as a counsellor and she was so helpful to talk to. We had a long chat and I literally told her everything- down to every last little detail, and bless her, she just listened. She said she wasnt shocked because she had a feeling there were some problems as I hadnt seemed my usual self. She said she always knows when im not happy because I go off the radar a bit. It was a real relief to actually verbalise whats going on, and admit that things between me and DH are strained.

My mum has done some reading around the subject too and she pointed out that many of the behaviours my DH is displaying are classic of narc's offspring. My mums advice regarding DH was to stay strong, but also to nurture. So not to attack, or get angry, but try and gently help him to analyse his own behaviour and to begin to open up and talk more about things. I have been trying to action this and I'm already seeing improvements. He has come back into our bed and we are both concentrating on getting along (and I am really trying to be KIND and not angry).

Since nasty meeting with MIL I have heard nothing from her. DH isnt mentioning her either. (They are no doubt in daily contact but this is out of sight out of mind at present) With regard to Christmas, I have modified the plan slightly. I am still going to drop them both off at MIL's on Boxing Day, (Instinct says just to stay well away from her) but they will be spending two days there, and then two nights at my familys. So it is equal. I am taking my mind of having to leave my family with her by making lots of plans in the two days. I have a party invite, lots of plans to see friends and looking forward to some quality time with my family.

So I suppose I am taking things one week at a time and trying not to worry to much about which direction things are going in. My mum has told me to try my absolute best for DS and that is all I can do.

How is everyone?? Looking forward to Christmas? xxx

Your mum sounds very wise!

glad to hear that cautiously things are improving a bit and that the children will be two nights with you as well as two nights with her.

Christmas here is generally delightfully relaxed, so I'm not fussing at all. its wonderful!

She is a wonderful woman Meerka! I am very lucky!

Your mum sounds fanrastic, I am glad you are moving forward. Do not have her in your house or anywhere near you.

Oh feeling a bit tearful Happy, I'm so glad that you see a way forward for your family. Having such a supportive DM should give you lots of strength and confidence too.

Keep slowly moving forward with your DH and look forward to some lovely Christmas celebrations.

Emerging from denial is always a painful and messy process. I agree with your mother that he needs kindness and invitations to examine the dysfunction with his mother.

However, I don't think that you should be filling that role: you are his wife, not his therapist. Your place in his life is to be treated with equality and respect, adult to adult.

He has called you names, thrown things in anger... these are no-no's from a spouse. He doesn't get a free pass because he's struggling with issues. Is he apologetic? Does he recognise that he was very wrong to name-call and break things?

Because if he doesn't, and you focus on being all-forgiving and all-nurturing for him at this time, your relationship is more a mother-to-child rather than adult-to-adult one.

I think that, for all that you feel for him and want him to have a safe space to work on his issues, you also need to make a stand about him treating you with respect. And make sure that he works through his issues with a professional, outside of your marriage.

So glad to read your update Happy. As you say, you're very lucky to have such a great mum, and your dh is extremely lucky to have such an understanding wife.

I hope he realises just how near he came to throwing it all away. If he is beginning to talk about things then that is a good start. It sounds like you've managed to take all the heat and drama out of the situation, just what you both needed.

Also pleased to see you've decided what to do over Christmas. Obviously some compromise on your part, but you know what's best, and you're looking at the long game.

Hope your next update is just as positive.

Thankyou all. Goats, he has said sorry for the smashing glass incident (funnily enough the thing I am least bothered about) but not the names. Knowing him as well as I do, I am confident that if we get through the next few weeks positively, he is much more likely to open up and then acknowledge fault.

The other night he said that twice he was about to say something horrible and stopped himself. Kind of odd he told me, but at least he stopped himself I guess.

Right now if I'm totally honest I DO feel more the adult in our relationship. I seem to be having to 'take control' of our life together at the moment. Maybe the balance will shift/ even out.. I hope so.

Nancydroop I am so lucky to have her. I just hope I give her as much support back as she gives me! I try to.

Aeroflot yes thats exactly what I feel is right, not to have her anywhere near me.

Nicenewdusters I really hope that there is a good future for our little family. I SO want there to be, but I'm just keeping things simple right now and taking baby steps otherwise I feel too overwhelmed.

I really hope that I manage to keep my frustrations in check and dont let it spill out and cause arguments..

On your last comment Happy about keeping frustrations in check - I've started trying to use my work mode rather than home mode for all MIL interaction for precisely that reason.

In home mode I generally expect people to be kind and caring and when MIL isn't (she never is) then I become hurt, frustrated and let it show.

Instead, recently, I've been trying treat it more like a work interaction where I have to/want to remain professional even if someone behaves in a less civil manner.

Essentially I try not to take things personally. This is really hard as there are few things more personal than close family, comments on your parenting etc. However, I'm just working hard to create that mental distance.

Negotiating books I've read talk about keeping your cool in negotiations by viewing the other side's comments and aiming your own comments to the middle of the table between you. You want to be able to examine their comments in a neutral dispassionate way. And then decide what to do with the comment. Take it, leave it, reply, whatever.

The important point is that MILs comments and actions shouldn't be allowed to get over to your side of the table and hook you emotionally. Try really hard to repel the comments back to neutral territory where you can examine them more objectively.

When I manage to practice what I'm preaching here it does help. It typically gives me the emotional distance to think: well that was just mean and nutty. She is generally quite mean and nutty, rather than be hurt or hooked by the actual comment.

It also helps me stop worrying too much if my replies are totally perfect etc. I try to say what I mean, mentally placing it in the middle of the table for her to take or leave. I'm done with overthinking and second guessing the responses of a narc. That is just too tiring.

Happy what about this whole issue with you having to borrow money off your mum to pay a household expense when he has money to pay for his mother to stay in a hotel? Have you addressed that at all?

I've just read your whole thread Happy and I think you're doing amazingly well under the circumstances. I'm so glad you have a lovely mum who can give you great advice and be there for you - you need someone who is completely in your corner.

Re. your DH - I've read the various comments about what could be at the root of his behaviour, whether it's because his own vision of his family has been shattered, or because he shares some narc traits with his mother - and I'm inclined to think, after your latest posts, that it's leaning more towards him sharing the narc traits. He's still blaming you, calling you names, expecting you to sweep it all under the carpet and carry on with pretending that it's all ok by ignoring what has gone before - and this is a very hard thing to do for the person who has been hurt by it (i.e. you, not him!)

It's one of those things, I think - people still mostly have a choice about how they behave in adulthood. Yes, abused children will be stuck in a pattern - but once this is clearly shown to them, they have a choice as to whether they do something about it, or try to turn their back on it and carry on as before. Some children end up repeating the patterns of behaviour that were inflicted upon them; other children try to ensure they do the exact opposite to their own children because they know how awful it was for them. Your DH is refusing to acknowledge that his mother is as dysfunctional as she is - and you have become "the outsider" by telling him that it's not normal. As in, family members can all acknowledge that Mum is a bit mad, but just let anyone outside the family try it and they'll soon learn their mistake! He has put you "outside" his family :(

I hope that the kindness thing works for you - but while being kind to him, and acknowledging any pain he might be experiencing, DO NOT allow this to turn into compromise and backing down. IF he attempts to use your kindness to these ends, then this also points more to him having narc traits, rather than being the victim of his mother's behaviour. :(

I'm glad you've reduced your DS's time with this woman - because in all honesty I wouldn't want a child of mine spending time with anyone like her. Yes she's his GM, but she is also a poisonous bitch who has no respect or liking for you, her DGS's mother. As he grows, she will drip poison into his ear about you - and that is not on. Children cope without having grandparents - there is no need to foster a relationship between your DS and MIL "just because she's his GM" - she's a dangerous person and he doesn't need someone like her in his life.

Going back to the very early pages, where someone said that your MIL had done a good job raising her own son, your DH - what do you think about that now? Do you agree? is he a well rounded, adult, mature person? When you answer that honestly, then you can see just exactly how "good" a job she did of raising him, and it will help you to see why you need to protect your own DS from her influence.

Best of luck as this goes forward - I think you're going to need it, as I suspect the "game" is not yet played out over Christmas.

I recognised my MIL in your description of the meeting, op. You went wrong in treating her like a rational human being with basically good intentions, 'cos she REALLY isn't.

The key in any sort of communication with these people is to give them no ammunition to use against you. Polite, surface interaction. NEVER tell them anything of any consequence or they will store it up to be used against you.

I think you're being really strong.

I agree with thumb about not stuffing your legitimate needs because he is hurting/challenged by the (hopefully..) emerging truth. It's a fine line but ultimately you're not his therapist, in a position to absorb his pain, you're his wife. Keep an eagle eye on that distinction!