MIL problems..

[Happymum1985]

Thought id post here as really feel at a loss about what to do.. Sorry for the essay, its been going round and round in my head.

My DH is an only child and has always had a close relationship with his mum. She has had a troubled life and because of this, has quite a few issues. Up until DS was born last year, I found her hard work and quite demanding, but we managed to get along fine and I always made effort to see her and have contact with her because having a relationship with her was important to me.

Looking back there were signs she possibly didnt like me, because her reaction when DH told her about our engagement and pregnancy were very odd (she said she was busy and would call back later and hung up the phone). There was the odd thing like her wanting to go on holiday (on her own) with DH for two weeks (two years in a row) and expecting him to go down and stay with her a week before DS was born to 'dig holes in her garden' ?! But again, I tried to be tolerant of all this. She is on her own and doesnt have friends so I understood she was lonely.

Once DS had been born it started to go downhill fast. She came to stay with us the day I got out of hospital even though I had specifically said no visitors. When I got back and she showed up, I didnt have the energy/ didnt want to cause a scene so bit my tongue. She then proceeded to stay for 4 nights and didnt lift a finger to help, wanted to hold DS all the time when I was still in the stage when I felt like I wanted to bond with him and hold him all the time. There was a time il never forget when my DH had popped out and she said she was hungry and me- the mug- was trying to bend down to get plates etc and prepare lunch for her 5 days after a c-section whilst she held DS. Every time she came to stay subsequently she was the same- expecting hotel service and not understanding things had changed.

The last time I saw her was 4 months ago when she came to stay and everything exploded. In a nutshell, she had worked herself up into a rage- we didnt realise- because she wanted time alone with my DH and apparently she had told me this in the morning and we had agreed she could have this time alone with him (i do also find this slightly rude!) -I had totally forgot about this so rather than saying anything she had got really angry. Anyway, i was cooking and passed DS to DH. As I did so, she snatched DS out of my arms and stormed past me saying DS needed to sleep and DH was exhausted. I was fuming, DS started crying and DH sat there like a shell shock victim not knowing what to do. I stormed up after her and retrieved DS (I dont know what came over me but i was shaking in rage). She then stayed upstairs for about half an hour and DH took her out for a walk. On this walk she slagged me off and basically told him she wouldnt be coming to stay again as she found me stressful to be around, that I was a bad mother, a nasty person etc and tried to stir problems between my DH and I by saying I didnt seem to want to spend time with him..

Since she left we have had zero contact. My DH told her that she owed me an apology. She refused to apologise which infuriated me more, and made no contact. It is my DS birthday in a couple of weeks and she said she wanted to come up to see him on his birthday. We have told her we are having a family day but that she can visit around the time of his birthday. She then asked if she could stay at our house (she has no shame!!). My DH said he would speak to me.

When he got back to her and said no, and pointed out to her that she had previously said she couldnt bear to stay with us and would stay in a hotel for her next visit, she announced that she had already booked her train ticket. She then said she didnt have enough money to stay in hotel (rubbish) and said she would meet me for a coffee before staying at our house to 'sort things out' My DH pointed out that she was being a little naive by thinking all could be forgotten after a quick coffee...she also upset my DH by saying its hurting her that he is 'choosing me over her'. He told me last night that it feels unnatural to tell his mum she cant stay.

Am I being unreasonable? Am I doing the right thing? I have stuck to my guns and said she is welcome to come and see DS around his birthday and that I will meet up with her to talk but that she is not welcome to stay. I don't trust her and feel like she is someone that enjoys drama and creating problems and her demands on my DH's time are not conducive to a normal functional relationship. I don't hate anyone, but I think I might hate her.. I just have so much anger and resentment there that I don't know if I can get rid of... I know things cant go on like this but I cant bear her and dont know how to move forward...

I haven't spoken to my MIL in over 12 months. Nasty piece of work that she is. Ruined our wedding day and then abused me verbally on the phone 2 weeks after the wedding saying I wasn't welcome in her family

TBH the main thing I'm annoyed at her for is making me have to explain to our two beautiful kids why they only have one set of grandparents. They're too young at the minute, but in time they will start asking. She does send them cards and presents (unsuitable ones but there you go) - cards full of things like I LOVE YOU and LOVE YOU LOTS. She has met DD 4 times in her life (she's 2) and never met our DS.

She also snatched DD off me when she was a newborn and told DH to bring newborn to visit without me because I was in the way basically.

So I do know a little how you're feeling. You are not alone!

You need to agree boundaries with your DH before you can even begin to address her issues.

That way you have a united front. If you start doing that now you're on you're own and she's succeeded in dividing you, and has that in writing!

To reply to Meerka - I don't know what practically she can do just now other than put in the effort to get her DH on side. As several posters have pointed out in many threads - your main problem is a DH problem.

Happy said in her original post that she kind of accepted some alone time for DH and MIL although she thought it was rude (rightly). Maybe to follow the "Your Mother Your Problem" you could give them all the time they could possibly want - just a DS and DM hangin' out, having fun .

But of course that would have to be without your DS - I'm not suggesting that Narcs aren't a terrible influence on LO's.

I'm quite a goody two shoes personality, so I used to actually tell my MIL where I was going to be if she asked. Then I smartened up a whole lot and started "being at a friend's out of town for the day" when I was blissfully at home or "at an appointment" or "with my parents" or the one you are aiming for "NOT AVAILABLE". Not available. No more details. Move on, nothing to see here.

With Narcs, any information is ammunition, so I think limiting information is the key to limiting intrusion. Don't discuss ANYTHING. I obviously didn't understand this to begin with - my family are thankfully not toxic. So I was badly prepared.

And then they can really wound you repeatedly and grind you down, making it much harder to focus on the main goal. It is tons of small things. I would say we wanted to buy a new sofa and she would go ON and ON and ON about it "don't get this colour, don't get this brand, your house is too small/dingy/etc for this or that type". Stuff like that hurt me.

So instead I started talking about things that I wasn't actually planning to do and I felt I could get some distance. I would say we were going to paint the wall yellow and let her go chase that one for a while.

I don't know enough about Happy's relationship with DH but it might be that if he is feeding MIL lots of information that you might need to limit what he hears as well. Thinking about dates to visit your DPs? Don't tell him until he needs to know, then MIL can't book a trip for the same dates and make it a battle. Lunch with MIL on Saturday or Sunday "oh I'm sorry I can't commit I agreed to see DF on Saturday or Sunday and I really can't remember which and she's not returning my calls today. Why don't you go ahead?" Stupid presents arrive, don't acknowledge - do the washing and lose them one by one (bad quality, wore out... DS loved them though! Barf).

Happy - glad you didn't send the email. You weren't being stupid at all and nothing in your email was unreasonable. However as others have said your mil is beyond reasoning with and will only see your email as an attack.

I would also have wanted to send such an email. You feel like you want to get your points across, you want her to understand that she's hurting you and your relationship. I just can't see that she would read it like that.

I think having a cooling off period is a good idea. This won't go away, but you had a horrible day when you met with her, dh is decamped (sulking?!) in the spare room, so let some time pass.

Happy, having read that email I am also in the DO NOT SEND IT camp. I had imagined it was going to be much shorter and not really touch on emotions, criticise or explain.

I thought it would be more like:

MIL, we clearly don't agree on everything, but we can still move forward.

You're welcome to see DS around his birthday, he feels like such a big boy and is very excited to be turning X.

For that visit and later visits, I think it is best that you stay at the X Hotel to give us all some space.

Happy

Oh and I've gone and booked you and DH a wonderful two week holiday together because I think you're so right together

Thanks nancy. As said, at this point if I was in the OP's shoes I'd be unconstructively going bull-in-a-china-shop here. Might win a battle but would almost certainly loose the war; happy might be able to browbeat her husband into not letting MIL in house or whatever, but she'd loose some very important something ... equality, respect for him, something ... when it becomes a matter of who can pressure him most, in a way the real fight for a good marriage has been pretty well lost. All that could be left is a half-man, even if she won (funny how this keeps on coming back to being a fight).

So yes, subtlety is better.

Very nice to hear you got there with your husband in the end. It must have been a very difficult time. Look forward to reading your post after you've spoken to your husband.

I sent DH my draft email when my MiL upset me horrendously last year. It helped me tremendously putting it down on paper - and having DH read it (in fact, he amended a couple of bits and made it even stronger than I had worded it).

MiL had an excuse... she was going through Chemo and had been living with us for nearly 6 months at that stage - it had got a bit much by then. Luckily she moved into her nearby house very soon after this incident - I've not forgotten it but it has been put behind us. The email has remained unsent. I do think that it helped DH to realise exactly why I was so upset though. (To be fair to DH he knew things weren't great but it was really only a result of the circumstances that were far from ideal).

What do you think DH would say if you showed him your email (you shouldn't send it btw)

Post bath I am SO relieved I didnt send it. Avoid avoid avoid and actually I am quite glad she didnt let me speak because I have now given nothing away.

Nancy- Thanks, would be really useful to hear what your DH has to say on this. Would definitely help. I prefer your version of the email. As nicenewdusters said, a cooling off period first though I think.

And this, GENIUS- Thinking about dates to visit your DPs? Don't tell him until he needs to know, then MIL can't book a trip for the same dates and make it a battle.

This happens everytime I go away- they plan a rendezvous- and it drives me crazy. So this is an excellent tip. I will just withhold info until the last minute! MIL doesnt drive and is really frugal, so always books trains/ coaches way in advance. How she would hate to pay a last minute train fare!!

Nicenewdusters- DH came back from pub and came into bathroom to speak to me during bath. So he can't be sulking. But we are not properly chatting. I kept it subdued and now he is downstairs and I am upstairs.

I have to remember that DH can't force anything on me. If I dont want her in my house she cant come to the house.

mistlethrush I think thats the perfect person to send my email to. DH.

I wouldn't send the email (though I think you've already decided that) - it's good to get it out of your system, so do 'write' quite a few!

Ultimately though she will only get clues from your honesty and exposure to know exactly where to dig next time - believe me, she will use everything you divulge to the utmost. She plans to obliterate you so don't give her any clues about what matters to you.

In the normal run of things it is advisable to use 'I' instead of 'you' when managing conflict, as 'you' is attacking (even if it's true). But with a narc you can't divulge your feelings, so 'I' is a no-no. I was married to a narc - and more importantly divorced from a narc and had to negotiate the impossible for years and years, a sitting duck because of our kids. I learnt to speak in very short statements with no frills whatsoever (imagine you're in a court of law being questioned by a barrister: keep everything pared right down - usually 'no' or 'yes'). On no account show any feeling as this is the juice a narc is after. She can have no idea at all how you really feel, about anything. Effecting a noncommital 'that's intereresting' is a good half-focus way to deflect - though that's two words when, if you can, use one (I'm not joking). It is what you DO not what you SAY that is the most powerful. And you have to DO with no explanation at all - or she will weave a web around the most innocent statement that is in any way challenging, even mildly.

We all believe, for good reason, that appealing to the best, humbling ourselves, being as honest as possible, is a healthy way to resolve conflict. This is the last thing to do with a narc. It's really hard to grasp the reality of it.

I'm being vague, sorry, because ime we need a huge bank of skills to deal with a narc - and it takes time to learn them (I had plenty of time, unfortunately). You have to accept you are not dealing with a normal person - even within the huge range of 'normality'. Do google info about narcs - I found Sam Vaknin's site helpful back in the day.

Oh happy I know how you feel.

Mil has pulled some terrible stunts on me and when I was pregnant bullied me tremendously. It really ruined a special time for us. I've seen her emotionally black mail her 13 year old dgs and have him in tears.

I know the shaking with anger feeling. The hours I've spent in bed not being able to sleep as I thought there was no way out of this madness. Possibly the worst thing I did was bad mouth her in my desperation. It nearly split us up.

Luckily dp really backed me up over a situation. I didn't know it at the time but dp had already gone NC for two years with her many years before as she had actually punched his then gf in the face

When she realised this was possibly on the cards again she retreated. She now only fires low flying missiles that don't really get picked up on dp radar - or if they do he ignores them.

How I've learned to deal with this is..

Spend as the least amount of time with her as possible.

Do not tell her any personal information.

Be on guard and not be lulled in to a false sense of security. (Mil will be nice for a few weeks then say something quite nasty then carry on talking and I would sit there shocked but feeling it was too late to reply)

Never slagg her off. Ever.

Do not try to facilitate dp and her relationship. Leave it to them.

I have recently got the balls to fire missiles straight back. (Petty but it serves my own sanity and esteem)

When dd gets older I will never leave her alone with her as I know she is capable of wicked manipulation and at the first sight I will be off. That will be crunch time for me.

Sorry this is such a long post. I feel for you I really do. Build bridges with your dh. Put on a united front. Protect your family.

sorry, took me ages to type that, I've missed the boat (or bath)!

I haven't read the entire thread but the last 4 or 5 pages. At the risk of being flamed to high heaven, I think Happy that you should send that e mail. It's very measured and I think strikes exactly the right tone, neither too accommodating or too hostile.

I think the problem is this woman just doesn't know how to make amends even if she wants to - it isn't within her emotional repertoire and probably never will be. We can debate the reasons for this till the end of time but that's not going to change anything.

She certainly sounds like a very troubled and troublesome woman but her son is having difficulty standing up to her and again we don't know the reasons for this. I think it is far more complex than expecting him to "grow a pair" - I think many people have strong bonds with their parents even though they have many faults and failings - don't we all, to a greater or lesser extent. He feels himself to be in the middle of the 2 women he loves most in his life, and OP you do sound like a very reasonable woman, so could you not try to move forward with the MIL for the sake of your DH. It would be tragic if his mother was allowed to break up your marriage.

I'm not sure why people are saying the MIL shouldn't be allowed to have unsupervised contact with her grandson. Why not? I firmly believe that children have the right to have contact with their extended family, not that the extended family have rights.

I know she behaved badly and is a very possessive mother but I can also see how she perceives being "barred" from staying in your home when you are there OP. Can you not give her another chance and maybe, just maybe she will have learned a valuable lesson.

Finally I do find it slightly chilling at the numerous posts urging the OP to cut off contact with her MIL, refuse to have her stay, don't meet up with her, don't send the e mail. Do all of these women have difficult MILs I wonder. And all this talk of narcissism - I never heard of this until I started using MN........... and now I hear it all the time, particularly in relation to MILs. I'm not saying the MIL hasn't behaved very badly but I think for everyone's sake, a real attempt should be made to find some middle ground and that she is allowed to stay again, but if there is any further trouble, then maybe you do have to make a different decision.

Right I have my hard hat on..............

nana for me , mil won't be having unsupervised contact because I seen her many times emotionally black mail her grandson. She can't do it with her 10 year old dgd as she seems very wary of her. With regards to her dgd she constantly implied that she loved him more that his own mother, his mother was irresponsible for leaving him alone (he was 13 at the time) that she wouldn't do it because she loved him. Then she rang him a few hours later, drunk, asking " will you forgive me dgs? Will you forgive your nanna ? You know nanna loves you don't you? Don't you? " till he said yes - then burst in to tears in my front garden. Horrific. It turns my stomach and makes my blood boil to remember it.

Normal rules don't apply, Nana. This is a whole different league.

Then he* burst in to tears.

The I don't think you should send the MIL email to DH either as it could get passed on to her.

Should DH have a shirt that says I Heart Mummy?

I'd give the baby's shirts to charity.

I had to go on anti depressents and see a counsellor because of my MIL.
That isn't normal.

Normal is great for normal people. But Toxic people are not normal and you can't really understand how ludicrous they are until you have had to deal with one.

mommy I may have missed this up thread but did you ever leave or consider leaving?

Nana - no need for a hard hat. I'd just say that in this case it is important to have read the whole thread. The op is very reasonable and accommodating. Also, many of the posters on here have extremely good insight into what the op is facing, based upon hard won experience (much of which is on the thread).

Happy - glad dh came to chat to you earlier. We've had many me upstairs/him downstairs type evenings. Things are a bit easier now, it's sometimes even the same sofa (but with me on MN!)

I did consider leaving.

I had PND and Anxiety. It was horrendous. I was worn down by everything and she took full advantage. I bottled it all up and was really poorly. All DH was worried about was MIL and what she wanted.

I ended up bursting out crying on the way home from her house because she shouted at me for picking DD up

I don't really remember how, or what I said..It all kinda spewed out and I told DH everything.
He has no idea, her behaviour was completely normal to him. So when she asked him to do something, even though it was inconvenient or awkward he would do it without a doubt. I noticed a pattern, if he questioned her it was 'I am your mother!' And that was all she needed to say. That was her reason.

Once he saw and knew how poorly I was he stood up for me. Not amazingly but he tried. He started putting us first to an extent. He knew what she was like. He didn't Bury his head in the sand expected me to deal with it. He told me he loved me and what's us to be a happy family and we will always come first.

If he excused everything she has done to us, me, the DDs, I would of walked then.

NomorepepperpigPLEASE the punch trumps my slap! What a sad state of affairs all round.

I completely agree with springydaffs advice to practice non-emotional non-committal language.

I had the same reaction when I read your email draft - far too many "you" "me" "us", emotions and explanations etc.

When talking to my MIL now I often reply in one word sentences or very short non-committal sentences. She then just keeps talking without getting any information from me. Being a Narc she has a vivid imagination and usually keeps the whole thing going on her own, but I don't commit.

Example [after long battle won not to spend New Year's Eve with them for the first time in many years]
MIL: What are you doing on NYE then?
ND: Uncertain
MIL: But will you be at home?
ND: We have to see about that
MIL: Well what are you waiting on, are you seeing your family then?
ND: Unsure at present
MIL: Shall I babysit DD then so you can have a good time?
ND: No that won't be needed
MIL: But she can't stay up late and get really tired and be cranky!
ND: She has her routine
MIL: What is her routine then?
ND: Oh sorry, I have to go.

It reads a bit mean but it is all about protecting the family.

Nope, Narcs are not normal so normal rules don't apply.

The comment about NOT BACKSLIDING when she has seemed normal for a time is really important. I've done that several times as I just am not hardwired to distrust family members and to be guarded and careful at home. But you have to really try. Every time you give up some information it will be used against you.

mommy I'm really glad he came through for you.

nancy they went on to have a full on scrap in MILs kitchen!

It's bloody scary how similar some of these stories are. The dialog you have just posted could have been me and mil.

With my mil at the beginning she would leave long silences that I felt I had to fill in, which inevitably get her a lot of ammunition to use against me. It's so sad though because at first she seemed lovely. In my very first conversation with her she asked if dp talked about her? - I should have run for the hills then. It's a bloody shame as there is space in my life for mil, for a mother figure but I don't think she wanted that role.

she would leave long silences that I felt I had to fill in

Like a barrister when questioning - using our social conditioning to be polite by filling silences. Then tying in knots the panicky, confused dribble that comes out.

Forewarned forearmed and all that.