MIL problems..

[Happymum1985]

Thought id post here as really feel at a loss about what to do.. Sorry for the essay, its been going round and round in my head.

My DH is an only child and has always had a close relationship with his mum. She has had a troubled life and because of this, has quite a few issues. Up until DS was born last year, I found her hard work and quite demanding, but we managed to get along fine and I always made effort to see her and have contact with her because having a relationship with her was important to me.

Looking back there were signs she possibly didnt like me, because her reaction when DH told her about our engagement and pregnancy were very odd (she said she was busy and would call back later and hung up the phone). There was the odd thing like her wanting to go on holiday (on her own) with DH for two weeks (two years in a row) and expecting him to go down and stay with her a week before DS was born to 'dig holes in her garden' ?! But again, I tried to be tolerant of all this. She is on her own and doesnt have friends so I understood she was lonely.

Once DS had been born it started to go downhill fast. She came to stay with us the day I got out of hospital even though I had specifically said no visitors. When I got back and she showed up, I didnt have the energy/ didnt want to cause a scene so bit my tongue. She then proceeded to stay for 4 nights and didnt lift a finger to help, wanted to hold DS all the time when I was still in the stage when I felt like I wanted to bond with him and hold him all the time. There was a time il never forget when my DH had popped out and she said she was hungry and me- the mug- was trying to bend down to get plates etc and prepare lunch for her 5 days after a c-section whilst she held DS. Every time she came to stay subsequently she was the same- expecting hotel service and not understanding things had changed.

The last time I saw her was 4 months ago when she came to stay and everything exploded. In a nutshell, she had worked herself up into a rage- we didnt realise- because she wanted time alone with my DH and apparently she had told me this in the morning and we had agreed she could have this time alone with him (i do also find this slightly rude!) -I had totally forgot about this so rather than saying anything she had got really angry. Anyway, i was cooking and passed DS to DH. As I did so, she snatched DS out of my arms and stormed past me saying DS needed to sleep and DH was exhausted. I was fuming, DS started crying and DH sat there like a shell shock victim not knowing what to do. I stormed up after her and retrieved DS (I dont know what came over me but i was shaking in rage). She then stayed upstairs for about half an hour and DH took her out for a walk. On this walk she slagged me off and basically told him she wouldnt be coming to stay again as she found me stressful to be around, that I was a bad mother, a nasty person etc and tried to stir problems between my DH and I by saying I didnt seem to want to spend time with him..

Since she left we have had zero contact. My DH told her that she owed me an apology. She refused to apologise which infuriated me more, and made no contact. It is my DS birthday in a couple of weeks and she said she wanted to come up to see him on his birthday. We have told her we are having a family day but that she can visit around the time of his birthday. She then asked if she could stay at our house (she has no shame!!). My DH said he would speak to me.

When he got back to her and said no, and pointed out to her that she had previously said she couldnt bear to stay with us and would stay in a hotel for her next visit, she announced that she had already booked her train ticket. She then said she didnt have enough money to stay in hotel (rubbish) and said she would meet me for a coffee before staying at our house to 'sort things out' My DH pointed out that she was being a little naive by thinking all could be forgotten after a quick coffee...she also upset my DH by saying its hurting her that he is 'choosing me over her'. He told me last night that it feels unnatural to tell his mum she cant stay.

Am I being unreasonable? Am I doing the right thing? I have stuck to my guns and said she is welcome to come and see DS around his birthday and that I will meet up with her to talk but that she is not welcome to stay. I don't trust her and feel like she is someone that enjoys drama and creating problems and her demands on my DH's time are not conducive to a normal functional relationship. I don't hate anyone, but I think I might hate her.. I just have so much anger and resentment there that I don't know if I can get rid of... I know things cant go on like this but I cant bear her and dont know how to move forward...

Sometimes it's wiser to do what's best for the people you love, rather than what you feel is right. You can always change your mind in the future, knowing that you did all you could. Good luck OP.

I agree with those who have suggested that you re-think your decision re: letting DS spend 2 days with her over Christmas op - you've been FAR more understanding/reasonable than many others would have been in your shoes. Please have another think about whether you're ok with MIL, DH and DS playing happy families over the Christmas holidays while you spend 2 days without them.

I really do think it's time your DH realised how serious you feel about this. He doesn't seem to give a shit about you at all at the moment. Time to outline how you're feeling, agree on what can be done about it (nothing isn't an option), and decide what will happen if your agreement is broken.

On the classics thread that someone else just mentioned (where the DH got into bed to hide away from the problem) the op sat her DH down to call her MIL with a script about the particular issue they had. They sat side by side with the phone on speaker while he did something he'd never had the courage to do before - stand up to his mother.

I reread your original post to remind myself what kicked everything off. I'd forgotten it had to do with her asking to spend time alone with your dh and ds. This is not acceptable. Of course things have become even nastier since then but stripping everything away the real problem is she wants your dh to herself. This is not on. You are a family unit now. This is why it is vital you do not allow her to see your dh and ds without you for Christmas. Btw I feel my ils would like to have my husband to themselves (although they wouldn't say it) so it's not unusual. However you must not accept this. I would go ape shit if someone suggested it and I'm not sure I could stay with my dh if he suggested it as a 'solution'.

This is our first Christmas since both myself and dp are nc with our respective ils. We have tacitly agreed that it will be Christmas and Boxing day just our family. I had already decided that I would not be offering to go one day to my family with the kids, and for him to spend the other with his family and the kids.

No way will my dc be spending one second of those two days with his pils and not with me. His df would love that, thinking that despite his vile behaviour his gc were still with him at Christmas. I am prepared to forego seeing my parents and family to ensure this happens. I have discussed it with them, they agree, but it's still crap. We will have our Christmas with them after Boxing Day.

Fairypond - you say sometimes it's wiser to do what's best for the people you love, rather than what you feel is right. Would you not agree that this does/should apply to the op's husband. Even if he thinks his mum is 100% in the right, surely he should do his best for his wife, who he also loves ?

Hope you're ok Happy.

YANBU - I think you should ask your husband to see her - she sounds very volatile and seeing her on your own could lead to her manipulating the situation - ie pretending you were nasty to her - or that she was apologetic when perhaps she was not - she is being very disrespectful by trying to demand she stays with you - and that you find time to see her - and I notice no apology has happened yet?

you have done your best with her you need to step back - if you feel it's important for her to see DS then let husband deal with it - and if she wants to explain herself perhaps could she put it in a letter

She sounds a drama queen try and minimise your dealings with her until she has learnt some more respect

nicenewdusters FOG, it's often referred to on here, Fear, Obligation and Guilt. It's what OP's husband is in the grip of.

I think that he needs help to become the person he should be. I think that the OP loves him and wants her marriage to survive, but she will have to out smart his appalling mother to achieve this. I don't believe that demanding he does the right thing will work, it will just escalate the resentment.

So sorry to talk about you instead of to you OP. In your shoes I would be hoping that the old bat disappears off into the sunset sooner rather than later, but I'm evil like that. Good luck.

I don't think you understand what is really going on here Op. Your husband isn't asking you to resolve things with his mum. Deep down he knows it's not possible so he's expecting you to PRETEND to. He has spent his entire life pretending she's normal so why can't you ?

I suspect your husband will have no qualm punishing you for failing to pretend. The sleeping in the spare room is a punishment , the not really talking is a punishment , the arguments when you raise the subject are punishments. You haven't backed down hence the escalation , resulting in violence and querying your compatibility. Basically more punishment and veiled threats.

On the surface many of these men are nothing like their toxic mothers , but when you scratch the surface , when you stop pretending , you sometimes see that in fact they are very much like their mothers. Like their toxic mothers you are expected to put their feelings first , how you feel about it doesn't matter. They are often as selfish and disordered as their mums.

I've had a similar experience and it dawned on me that really my entire marriage was based on pretending. Everything was ok while I stuffed my feelings down my throat and acted like everything was ok. When I raised any issue this was always perceived as a threat to the fantasy , I would be punished until I agreed to pretend again.

On the surface many of these men are nothing like their toxic mothers , but when you scratch the surface , when you stop pretending , you sometimes see that in fact they are very much like their mothers. Like their toxic mothers you are expected to put their feelings first , how you feel about it doesn't matter. They are often as selfish and disordered as their mums

I'm afraid that badbalding might have put his finger on the key here, in the light of how your husband is behaving.

Op I hope your going to have very serious words about his glass throwing tantrum and walking out. I would make it very clear that a repeat incident will result in you calling the police. Your response to this incident will dictate whether it's a isolated incident or a regular occurrence.

When you look a little bit closer at what he said it's quite worrying. He's angry at you for allowing mil to cause a problem between you. Note ALLOWING . So he acknowledges she's caused a problem but rather than deal with her he becomes abusive to you . Your not responsible and its abusive of him to imply that you are.

People have varying views on these weird relationships with narcissistic mothers and sons. Some people view the sons as victims who need help while others view them as willing partners in the dance. Personally I saw my ex h as a willing participant. Despite the odd objection from him he loved it. He loved being mummys special boy , loved her jealousy and possesiveness , and it all validated just how special he was and how much she loved him . She would flirt with him and act like a little girl and he lapped it up. As for me I was just a idiot who didn't understand how close they were because I'm apparently not normal.

Your husband let you down when your baby was born, he let you down when he fucked off on holiday for two weeks and he let you down when he went along with the meeting. He let you down every time he has listened to her Bitching. He puts her first . Many of these men didn't separate emotionally from their mothers , effectively they are married to their mothers and you are the ow. Often in these situations there has been emotional incest going on for years and its not unusual for there to have also been sexual abuse occur also. Many of these mothers are perverts and in your shoes I would not have my child around her.

Op, been following this and you have my utmost sympathy and respect.

I was thinking about you last night and think what Ballerina says is spot on. Your husband has been utterley spiness and as soon as you started pointing out how abnormal the situation is he accuses you of having the problem and this culminates with his violence and threats to your marriage. He sounds just as manipulative as his mother. As others pointed out after the glass smashing you cleared up and agreed to being nice to each other for a month. In other words he and his mother have got exactly what they wanted - you to stfu and to facilitate them having a cosy Xmas together- WITHOUT YOU.

Personally I would invite all inlaws to your house for one day over Xmas and not do separate days with each, that way mil would have to behave herself and you would not have to spend Xmas separated from your child (which I think is totally out of order).
Initially I felt very sorry for both you and your husband, however your dp is showing himself to be an utter twat and after this 'nice' month is out of the way I would seriously consider if this relationship is ever going to be worth your sanity. Take care of yourself op.

BadBalding - do you really think it could be as bad as you say in your last post ? I've posted quite a lot here as the op's situation chimed in many ways with my own. I hoped my own experience might be helpful to her.

All the children in my dp's family are in their forties, yet in the parental home they still ask if they can have a biscuit, open the fridge to get a drink etc. There's very little in the way of "helping" mum out in the house. It's her domain, she likes to be the martyr, an offer of help is very rarely accepted. Up until fairly recently my dp still called his mum "mummy". FFS, he's a grown man and a dad. I used to tease him about it, as did his siblings. Eventually I told him I thought it was a bit odd given his age, he just said it was habit.

Reading your posts and others I can really see now that the children of these toxic people are happy to put others in their place to deal with the toxic parent. I always used to wonder why it was me that ended up sitting with the pils chatting, whilst dp disappeared to do various things. I nearly always made the arrangements with them, also saw them on my own, basically saw them more than he did. Most of the time things were ok, but I see it so clearly now.

When our current situation blew up I was offered up for meetings with the pils, sometimes with dp, sometimes alone. I was able to stand up for myself well, just as well because dp didn't. I've told him since that he was weak and that he cannot see his father (in this case) for what he is because he's so influenced by him, and in my opinion intimidated by him. All denied of course. I don't know if his upbringing is an adequate excuse for me to forgive him his actions. My head says no but my heart is wavering.

Really hope you're ok Happy. Even if you don't want to post about anything d'you just want to let us know you're alright ?

What ballerina says. Your DH is being, in a way, more threatening than she is. It is very abusive to smash glasses at walls, dangerous & frightening.
He wants to take himself & DC to his mother's over Xmas & leave you to, what? Does he care what? Has he checked that it's OK for you to stay with your parents whilst he goes to Mummy, or does he not care about what you do/if you'll be on your own? What happens if you become upset being separated from your DC, what will the next act of violence to get you to submit be?
I think that if you insist that he doesn't go, he'll sulk like a toddler, become more aggressive & ruin the time anyway.
Let him go to Mother, BUT NOT WITH THE DC. They are a product of your relationship & of you, which she opposes. They would not be exposed to a healthy emotional environment & would not have their mother there to support them. Who knows what they'd see/hear & take away with them.
Let him go, don't help him pack, provide gifts for him to take, don't facilitate it in any way; he does it all himself.
You & the DC do what you want, go to your parents, to Eurodisney if the mood takes you! (Arrrghh). Anything, but don't include him. You are able to turn the tables here & let him know how it feels to be left out.
He will connect that if he goes to Mother & excludes you, then ultimately, he will be the one who misses out, not you & your DC will not be affected by the emotional abuse either. It will all land in his lap & therefore it will then be up to him to sort it out.
His aggressiveness is a red flag here op, you cannot expose your DC to it, especially without you there. He cannot have the control through aggression behaviour reinforced. If he chooses to go, he does so on your terms; without the DC or your assistance.
Good luck, so sorry that you're caught up in this spiral

Sadly Op you are caught in a very common scenario. Lots has been written about this . It will be useful for you if you spend some time reading about these people. At the moment your a sitting target. Google narcissistic mothers , or narcissistic mothers and their sons . These things tend to play out in a certain way. It's all very predictable.

I'm not sure if it's already been mentioned but also learn about triangulation which is what's happening here. Do not consider being away from your child over Christmas to keep them both happy.

There is varying advice on how to handle these things. Others will disagree but the way I have dealt with narcissistic people is to do it back harder and faster.

I eventually told my mil exactly what I thought about her , she wasn't welcome in my home and there would be no more further contact with my child or myself. I also told her in no uncertain terms that she's not the only person capable of lying or shit stirring. If she wanted to bring aunty Joan in on it that's fine , aunty Joan would be told in detail what horrible things mil had said about her , and hell , I may even make a few things up as well considering it seems to be an acceptable thing to do.

It's the only time I saw mil looking scared.

Husband was also told that the shit with his horrible mother was going to stop. She wasn't welcome and our child wasn't going anymore. If he started just one more argument about her I would simply go round to her house nd confront her about whatever the problem was , and I wouldn't be polite about it. Overall I stated I didn't want to hear another word about her , any more trouble and he would be divorced. And I meant it.

And that was it. Problem solved.

Some professionals say that a man with this sort of mother often picks a wife who will challenge their mother because they won't or can't. They apparently cower behind the wife and effectively send her out into the arena to do battle on his behalf. I don't know whether there's any truth in this , but I do recall my ex h insisting on all sorts of stupid shit, ie mil being at the birth , mil choosing baby's name , mil deciding the wedding guests ect ect. Anyone would have objected to these stupid things , and I wonder whether these were attempts by him to get me to stand up to her because he couldn't.

BadBalding - awesome post.

As you say, you solved the mil problem, with nobs on by the sound of it ! You have however referred to your ex h. Can I ask if it was the mil problem that derailed your marriage ?

badbalding your advice sounds great, but not really sure that many people have the strength of character to carry it off. Now that I'm older I reckon I could, but I definitely couldn't have at OP's age.

I don't think it's necessarily strength of character that people need to tackle this, or age. It's probably about having ducks in a row (knowledge, iformation) and also just plain personality: some people are naturally able to shoot from the hip, some aren't.

I['ve just finished reading Michael Macintyr'es autobiography and he had a toxic granny who adored him, thoroughly indulged him throughout his life, and wanted him to herself. His granny famously, hilariously, told his fiance that MM did the smelliest shits on the planet to put his fiance off. MM, although loving his granny dearly (as well as despreately needing her money) had a huge row with her and cut her out - for good, it turned out. He says 'She forced me to choose and I of course chose my fiance'.

Hope you're ok, happy. It must be a very difficult time for you. There's a kind of forcefield around these toxic people and hell can certainly break lose when you challenge it xx

I've been putting up with these idiots my entire life , it was the last straw after years off pandering and sucking up to her. Being nice to these people doesn't work. I think Sam vatkin advises doing it back unless they're dangerous samvak.tripod.com/5.html.

It's not nice , it's not in my nature , but at some point you realize that you have nothing to lose. They target you because you are nice , they are so confident you are nice they unleash all their shit on you. How lovely and safe , to be aggressive and abusive to someone who you KNOW won't fight back. Being nice to these people is the equivalent of going into the Roman arena where your opponent has swords and knives and you just have a fluffy pillow.

Many of us will recall the misery of the childhood bully. Many of us will also remember finally having enough and either fighting back verbally or physically , and to our astonishment they left us alone afterwards. I think this is just the same.

Nice , the mil problem was a big part of it but not all of it. Having been raised by such a person he had some serious issues , and to be honest so did I. Possibly if his mother hadn't been in his life I might never have realized just how serious his problems were. Or my own for that matter. I think this is what narcissists do. They highlight what is. They are the equivalent of sniffer dogs , sniffing out who's got good boundrys and who hasn't. If your having problems with one it usually means you need to reassess your boundrys and often also some of your beliefs.

Where is your DH's father in this picture?

You say your MIL was an alcoholic until 4 years ago - so is your DH then the child of an alcoholic?.....and the child of a NARC?

If so, he cant be anything other than emotionally dysfunctional - unless he has recognised and addressed issues already.....which he clearly hasn't as he is in denial that his mother is an issue.

He needs to appreciate that his childhood was emotionally dysfunctional without normal boundaries or behaviours . This does mean he has to "blame" his mother for this - there is a lot of "exusing" and "pity" for the MIL's early life....and your DH may hero worship her for overcoming her poor start and raising him alone...BUT.....he must acknowledge that the situation was flawed (nobodies fault - just was) and he is now responsible for looking into how this would have impacted his emotional development and how he is now responsible for identifying his own emotional short comings and unhealthly boundaries and behaviours and addressing them. This should not feel like a betrayal of his M. In my case my df died when I was v young - my dm was v young and left with 6 young children and vv depressed and grief stricken -- in those days no one dealt with grief for children (or her) but I acknowledge that my childhood was emotionally disfunctional - that is not betrayal - it was no ones fault it was fact.

Look up emotional dysfunction of the adult child of an alcoholic and adult child of a narc....this is where you should focus your energies on your flawed husband - not locking horns with the mad MIL....these kids become adults terrified of conflict and will do everything to avoid any negotiation etc as they spent their child hoods trying to keep the peace as their world would otherwise crash in.....they are spineless and weak - passive aggressive as your dh is behaving. Also with NARCs if you are the one they want approval from (ie you dh, the golden son) - they will always behave perfectly for them as the sun shines out of their adoring arse - so you dh does not see he bad side....and you will not be able to point it out to him. He needs a rewire and review of his childhood before he can see ehat is really happening, what is really appropriate etc -- he does know what normal is,

*This does NOT mean that he has to blame his mother

Are you doing ok, OP?

There has been lots of good advice, but really, I don't think we've said anything you didn't already know. It's just a matter of deciding what you want to do.

This is a bad time of the year for people with toxic relatives. Please take care of yourself and remember that you are an important member of your family!! You deserve to be treated with respect by your DH and your MiL.

She will always be toxic - narc, dry drunk, alcoholic, whatever....

This boundary you should have firm:

NEVER EXPOSE YOUR DC TO HER TOXICITY - WITH YOUR DH ALONE....

as your DH does not know what dysfunctional looks like - she will have a toxic field day with your dc with you out of the picture. You must always be the family package in her company. She can have her son for some creepy controlling ALONE time - but she cannot have YOUR son.

Badbalding - thank you for answering my post.

I missed the alcoholic bit. I don't envy people in this position. My ex h wasn't ever prepared to do what somethingtodo suggests. I ended up in counselling on my own . In the end there was nothing to do but leave him behind. You cannot make someone look at something they don't want to see.

it usually means you need to reassess your boundrys and often also some of your beliefs.

More, more! Please tell us more!

It was Sam Vaknin's site that was the light in the deep darkness for me when I was battling 'my' narc. SV's site was the ONLY info, back in the day, when the vast majority had no idea at all what I was experiencing. That included therapists who didn't have a clue

I am thrilled I can be legitimately horrible to these horrible people. What a treat!

2 days at Christmas playing happy families with dh/ds & dgs - RESULT!!
NEXT lets aim for 2 WEEKS away playing happy families with dh/ds &dgs
THEN shared care playing happy families with dh/ds &dgs after the DIVORCE.

OP you said up from that his da and dn were well aware of MIL issues -- could you meet with them with him - so he gets a sense check and that he is not blaming it all on you vs MIL?

Another tactic might be to discuss/explore your approaches to parenting as your dh would be motivated to do the best for his son. If as you have said MIL has some wacko parenting ideas did she bring him up in this way? if so does he want to bring you dc up in this way? This might be a back door route to get him looking at parenting approaches and the the penny might drop that his childhood was dysfunctionl. This would also allow you both to "get ahead" so you were clear and well informed about which approach you would take to parenting with your child so that WHEN she chrips in about sleep, discipline, food etc you are ready with a no ths is how we doit and this is why. My dh is the child of a narc and alcoholic and although well intentioned is a shit parent because he had no effective parenting himself.