Decision made

[adorably2014]

I posted here in June. I can't seem to be able to link to my old thread. After a summer of ups and downs I have decided I don't want to be married to my husband anymore. He has no idea and now the children are at school again I have more time to plan.

My fear is that because what is happening is always in private, how can I possibly document all this and be believed in the divorce courts? For example this summer he had bought me two really expensive pieces of jewellery which he presented to me in front of the children as a kind of I love you gift, only for 5 days later to do the stuff that has made me decide to leave. So he will easily seem like the wronged man with a gold digger wife. I am also concerned what to say to the children when a split is initiated. I don't want them to know exactly as it would be too awful for them but then again is it going to be possible to protect from everything? I also worry that if I talk about what has been going on then my H could potentially be in trouble which I don't want, selfishly I just don't want to have to live with it anymore.

For the moment I am focusing on my course and work experience where I asked if there was possible paid employment. My boss said they were very busy and would probably have two projects I could help with in October and be paid for. I hope it materialises. In the meantime I am putting as much money as possible into my own account. My H has not got access to it but knows the account details. Is it OK do you think or should I set sth he knows nothing about. For choosing a solicitor is it best to take a WA solicitor or one of my own? I reckon my H will get someone really good and expensive so I need to make sure I have someone very very good.

I tried to find a counsellor before the school holidays but it wasn't that easy. I also found that talking about all the stuff in a way made me freeze and reflect so much that I couldn't act if that makes sense. I think when things are over I will then hopefully find the space to talk ... So for now I am trying to get on with practical stuff like following advice on getting paperwork together before contacting solicitors. My H has loads of paperwork. I know because I sometimes do his filing. There are share certificates, pension stuff etc... Do I need to copy everything? If so,does it need to be recent or can I take copies now even if I don't start anything in 6 months' time.

Sorry I sound like such a cold calculating b here. I am mostly terrified of putting the children through such an upheaval but then I keep reminding myself our eldest saw something was wrong with me during the holiday and didn't really believe the explanation that 'mummy is tired'.

Anyway apart from my few questions not sure entirely why I am posting, for support I guess and to update on previous thread after this long gap.

Oh, and counselling isn't a panacea. It leaves you with an understanding (IME) of why you dealt with things as you did. You are then responsible for dealing with things differently in your future. This can (and probably does) sound scary. But it is massively empowering to know that YOU get to choose your own boundaries, and your own compromises. It also doesn't mean, that in understanding why one was vulnerable to a particulate type of abuser, that you are in any way culpable for that abuse.

The main reason I went to counseling years ago was to discover why I picked such shitty men. So for me it was necessary to pick everything apart and delineate everything in minute detail so I could recognize the 'danger signals' of abusers/charmers and also to know when I was being sucked in by recognizing my own patterns, reactions, and self-delusioning (changing or denying their actions & motives in my own mind). If that's something you're working or want to work on that may be why your therapist is focussing on things you'd probably rather forget. Perhaps she feels that she knows you don't repeat your mistake but are also confident enough to love again (somewhere down the line) and be able to judge men better.

It's funny. My own dad was a wonderful man, a true 'gentleman of the old school'. A loving husband and father. I've always wondered where I picked up the 'need' (for lack of a better word) to punish myself by picking rotten men. Oh well. As The Who said 'I won't get fooled again'.

Thanks a lot - lots of food for thought, will respond more fully later.

I first thought I needed therapy after I found out about the prostitutes abroad, it was going to tip me over the edge, and I reached out then. To try to deal with the hurt and pain, really. The sessions are now also why I stayed etc. I left home for here probably quite angry and never addressed the issues then. It kind of festered and I went headlong in a much worse situation. I think I need to think about it long and hard because really I don't want my life to be a constant car crash.

Your life will not be a constant car crash, precisely because you're thinking long and hard about why you ended up where you were, and what else was going on that made you end up there.

Believe me, you are brave, and strong, and you know the difference between right and wrong - not a subjective 'right'/'wrong', but the difference between coercion (by your mother or your h) and letting someone decide for themselves. That sings out from your posts, even if you don't know it. Please stop beating yourself up, everyone here can see your strength, even if you doubt yourself, and often feel weak and foolish. I promise, you're not. You have escaped a man who sounds positively evil, and kept your kids safe, and not tried to turn them against him.

What would you say to someone in your position if you were looking in from the outside? Could you honestly tell them you thought they were failing? I really doubt it, I think you'd think they were astonishing, just like we all think of you.

Sorry, I meant to come back last night but took to bed early to recover from a day of returning childcare favours ...

Twinklestein paragraphs 2 and 3 of your last post - I think it's what we're doing. As for owning vs blaming I hadn't seen it like this. I need to think about that. The self-blame has been something intrusive, not something I kind of wallow in if it makes sense (though maybe the way I write suggests that!). I can see blaming myself till the cows come home doesn't help but I'm not sure it's as simple as just deciding to stop. The list of different things that happened is so very long and varied, I think that's making it difficult. In some instances I completely detached myself with the situation. I was in denial of how bad it was too. There were patterns that I started to see later on but then there were also one-offs, things that I'd not really thought about much and are now coming back to me. It's like lots of layers over quite a long time. It was also not continuous. He's my children's father, which complicates things. It feels like more than a few mistakes to deal with. Sorry, it sounds a right muddle now I read it again.

Notabear protective shell is what I built. I don't deal with my emotions very well. Sharing my emotions led to getting hurt and with H, I don't know, I switched off, really. Talking about how I feel is really new. H was only seemingly interested in the beginning. Then he belittled, mocked or just ignored, and I ignored my feelings too, or blocked them. Talking about how I feel/what I think with someone else who might disagree and solving that in a reasonable way is something I have no practice of. I feel I failed because I was never able to reason with H. And yes, I understand that with abusive people you can't do that anyway. But I think it affects other areas of life. With the children I need to better able to acknowledge my feelings or share them too.
Re: constant car crash - I meant in future, I don't want repeats of this. I wrote that quite hurriedly. No I don't think I'm failing, I think I failed though, and I'm trying to sort it out.

I won't say more today. Legal stuff to look at for court. Wanted to write more and about the job thing but will do that another time. Thanks very much

Wanted to come back to this but never got the time with court and its befores/afters taking over everything.

I've postponed the next therapy session, will leave much more time in-between the next ones. I thought she was quite blunt at times last session but feeling in limbo with the divorce is definitely not helping. I don't think I can 'rest' properly until anything is finalised. Maybe the sessions are stirring too much while proceedings are ongoing and it's too big a step. I find it hard to tell. I feel I've been firefighting for past 9 months or so, not really living as such. And since papers were served denying myself things either out of guilt or just fear of running out of money. I'm now trying to correct that but it'll take time. Smaller steps might be better for me at this time. Thanks so much. Sorry if I sounded so negative - sometimes I want to do too much and I get myself in a complete spin.

Notabear thanks and yes, I know the shame is his. In my rational moments I know it's him.
It's a huge relief to not be around him anymore. I don't feel as physically shattered as I used to and have regained a sense of myself, and I can see now through the way he's acted that some of the behaviours I found millions of excuses for was him being self-obsessed, sleazy, unnecessarily nasty and childish (it's an insult to a child to say that, actually). After I had dc1 for example he kept doing things that made me think 'is he jealous of the baby or am I neglecting him, how do other people work this?' Now the more I think about it the more I think he probably was jealous, and that he had to be the centre of my world all the time, and I think yes it's really pathetic for a man of 40+ to need to do that. In DC's first year he kept organising for us to go away as a couple while I wanted us all to spend time together with the baby. I told him several times I wanted DC to be with us or that a night out was just fine. It totally fell on deaf ears. He wanted me back to my pre-maternity everything in no time after my c-section. He even went to my postnatal check to ask the doc himself. He had no concept of the demands of a new baby on me. Later if we didn't have a night nanny I used to creep out of bed so as not to wake him for the night feed, when I'd creep back in I'd often realise he was awake and he'd want sex, and not even something quick. I did ask him why he kept doing that, told him I was shattered. But he just said that I'd spent half an hour or whatever with DC so surely I could spare time for him. I went to a spare room once but he came looking for me asking what the fuck I was playing at. He was lovely to the baby but it was like he felt I give the baby too much attention, and I had to pay back or something.

As heartbroken and sick as it makes me feel, I'm actually quite glad the friend told me what she knew from her husband about H's abroad behaviour. He was basically sleeping around the whole time he was also doing all of the above to me at home after I had the baby. There were shorter trips so he was actually at home more than in recent years. The level of disgust and contempt I have for him is off the scales now because really why? I've talked to the friend a bit more now. Her and her husband are the only ones who've stuck by me from the group of 'friends'. The husband said he'd never seen eye to eye with H and had some really harsh words about him. I think it was probably the first time I'd heard anyone who knows him talk about him like this - and apart from the orders and vague info they don't even know what he did. Now also, with his attitude with the children more people can see his manipulative behaviour. Little things like that are helping me. I don't feel so alone or that it's just me going mad or imagining things anymore.

Twinklestein - been thinking about the owning. Not sure I actually get what you mean. I do want to put this behind me, I want to have a life, a normal life and do things I'm proud of and the children too. I don't sit there moping all the time, even though I feel sad quite a lot. I really don't want this to define me and the rest of my life.

Across Picking the wrong men I don't know, I only ever really picked one. My confidence is completely eroded now because it was so wrong. It will take a long long time. I said to therapist my worry is I might be tempted to get into the wrong relationship, simply because I feel scared about the future and being on my own with the children with a support network that is let's face it, not really big at all. H breaking the order has not helped at all. He's going to push for the orders to be removed as soon as he can, I know it. Although he's not anyway near me his presence is felt through everything, the way he deals with the children, the way he stops making payments etc. The confidence I need is to stand on my own two feet and believe that I can really do it by myself. I said no to the man who asked me out, I felt scared. Afterward though, I was seriously tempted to backtrack and say yes, because he seems the type who would protect me. Kind. It's so silly really, completely unrealistic and I know it but it did go through my mind.

Your dad sounds like he was really nice, Across. I don't know if there's always a rational explanation as to why we make some choices. I've racked my brain. For h I was smitten but also I thought I could have it all maybe. I didn't realise he would move all the goalposts all the time. I was really clueless in terms of relationships. Alarm bells should have rung enough for me not to marry him, but really I was looking at myself as lacking, what I could do to make him happier, never the other way round.

Re: work - I think it might be because I've never had a 'proper' job and a lot of the people I'm around had one and didn't have babies first.
People in the field don't make that kind of judgement because quite a few people retrain in it later in life and sometimes from unlikely backgrounds. Most starter jobs are long hours with huge competition to get them so not suitable with the children, hence the comments from some mum friends. There are part-time jobs. More than I think people imagine, but it's still a case of getting one.

It also depends who I speak to. H's sister has probably seen me mostly as decorative and a baby-making machine actually. I think I saw her in a bit of a new light when I met her, slightly patronising maybe. But who knows what H has told her? And for as long as I've known her I've only been about babies and children, and I've always been in his shadow. Conversations didn't really revolve about my ambitions. In my head I was having the babies first, that was all. But obviously agreed goalposts were moved again and again. My first degree is in a subject clearly relevant to the job I want to do, and the casual job I had when I met him was relevant too so it's not like I've had a revelation or anything. It's coherent, I never wanted to do anything else, but after such a gap, my age and still things to learn it isn't going to be easy and I may well have to do something else. A lot of people freelance too and I'm putting together stuff to give it a go anyway but with so little experience and lots of competition I have absolutely no illusions really.

Oh and last post for now, he didn't get a month, he got ten days for the holiday and a royal ticking off from the judge. He's now called my barrister and solicitor bullies, apparently they are a bad influence on his (stbx)wife. The irony...

Although things aren't improving in a straight line, I've followed your journey and you have come a long way and have achieved much. You are much stronger than you allow yourself to believe. You are also intelligent and capable.

It's glib to say but just keep on doing what your doing. You do have the ability to achieve your dreams for a good and happy life.

Excellent news.

He was never likely to get a month and even if he'd got it, he would be unlikely to have ever taken it again.

As regards the owning/blaming thing:

To own something is to take responsibility for it; to blame yourself is to reproach yourself, to kick yourself. The word 'blame' actually comes from the Latin 'blasphemare' - to reproach/revile/blaspheme from Greek 'blasph?mein' - 'evil-speaking'.

I guess I've learnt in life that it's possible to take responsibility for decisions that in retrospect were a mistake, even something as big as marrying a wrong'un, without blaming oneself for it.

I don't know how you would process it, but I got to that point by working through and understanding why I made the choices, and being compassionate about it.

Once I begun to understand why I had acted the way I had, the blame fell away. (Indeed I tended to blame myself most where I least understood).

It's a process of learning to forgive yourself.

I know what they both mean, Twinklestein, I just didn't get how to apply the owning. I see what you mean now, it's a delicate balance isn't it though?
I wonder whether the problem I have might be that H often laid the responsibility for what was happening on me?. He made me responsible for what he was doing (eg can't help myself you're too beautiful). Also in quite a few situations I don't think I had a choice so I find it really difficult to think I own those situations.

Thanks nauticant

The next thing is now I've told the children Dc1 doesn't even want to go for that long with him ...

Abusers always blame the victim - 'you wind me up, you're too mouthy, you're too sexy' etc.

It may be that a lot of your self-blame is down to internalising his script that you caused the abuse. I also suspect your awful mother has a hand in it too. All of that needs to be undone.

In abusive situations you don't have full control, choices are taken away from you, you are not free - it's hard enough to deal with the distress of that without kicking yourself on top of it.

I would look at it like this 'I take responsibility for the decision to marry this man: however I was very young and I didn't have the life experience to know what I was getting myself into. I wouldn't have married him if I had known what he was truly like. I didn't connect incidents that in retrospect were red flags, because I was too young and inexperienced to know what they signified. And that's ok. I was then in situations where control was taken away from me. I was subjected to behaviour that was unpleasant and sometimes actively criminal. I am not responsible for his misdeeds & I do not blame myself for any of them.'

Echoing the wise Twink, I'll follow with the words of the equally wise Maya Angelou; 'I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better.' These words have really helped me to 'forgive' myself for things that I didn't even need 'self-forgiveness' for, iyswim. And to realize that as we learn, we change. And as we change, we become stronger and wiser. And as we become stronger and wiser, we become happier and more joyful. It's a journey and you're getting there! You've learnt and changed. You've become stronger and wiser. You are happier now, even if there are times of upset and sadness. Joyful may not have come yet, and may not come until all the 'formalities' of the divorce are over & you settle to an established routine (one of your own devising), but it WILL come, I promise.

He'll continue to try to move the goalposts. But what he doesn't realize is that you are no longer playing the game!!

Thanks both.
I think yes I have internalised stuff to a degree. What I find hardest are the situations I had little or no control over. I also find it really hard to deal with how much some of what he did was calculated or not. Was it spur of the moment or did he actually think it through? I've been told not to think about it and focus on myself but I don't know, it bugs me.

I need to be kinder to myself, you're right too. And no, I don't think my mum's attitude has ever helped - and unfortunately she's back on form, resentful my aunt came over instead of her, although she doesn't actually want to come over when I've asked her. Compassion is what she expects towards her but not something she ever practises or practised. Somehow everyone else is responsible for making her happy.

Across I think he'd like to remove goalposts altogether. After each hearing I hope against hope he realises he needs to be more reasonable ahead of the next one ... Instead there's some kind of backlash to punish me (and the kids) and so it continues ... He's also suddenly become incredibly inefficient or forgetful at passing information to his legal people and crap at figures for someone of his profession and standing... His sister gave me a bit of a lecture too. She suggested reconciliation would be better but if not, if only I would consider mediation things would be much easier as he would be more sensible. He's very very hurt and sad and his pride has been dented so it isn't very good ground for negotiations.

You can't negotiate with abusive men full stop.

Does she even know what he did and why you have those orders?

Does she know you have panic attacks?

Oh dear, you are having to battle against all these other idiots as well as him. Can you stop/reduce contact with them all? With your mother, you've made it clear that she is never going to support you, so she's a lost cause. With regard to the sister, she doesn't know the truth, which is why she thinks reconciliation or mediation are reasonable (which they clearly are not). I'm guessing you would prefer not to tell her all the horrible details, in which case you probably need to distance yourself from her. All that pessimism about work isn't helpful either so I can't see that contact with her is very healthy for you.

I'm glad the judge gave him a telling off and didn't give him what he wanted about the holiday.

So few people can see the real him. No wonder young, vulnerable you was taken in.

Twinkle she doesn't know what he did. I don't feel I can tell her, as in say the words, but also I don't want it to get back to the children, or for things to be distorted, because there's no way it wouldn't be.

She knows about the non-mol because she's been involved in some of the handovers instead of him, not sure about the other one, but I think she thinks it was a one-off tiff that went wrong and I was a bit over dramatic about it. And no she doesn't know about the panic attacks, I don't want him to know about them, I didn't want him to try to use that against me at any stage with the children arrangements.

She painted the picture of a broken man, but she doesn't know he's choosing to be really awkward. Sounded like he'd said that I was out to get my hands on his money or the house which I'm most definitely not. But she might have been relaying messages too.

We met because she'd kept asking and I thought maybe let's see and because I used to get on quite well with her. But she was patronising, I didn't remember her like that. She asked me what I thought I was going to live off, and where. Not very nice. I couldn't be myself because I felt I might say the wrong thing and definitely it would be relayed back to him.

So goodness knows what the kids hear about me when they see h and his family ...

You never have to see her again. You tried, she was awful, it's done.

Does she really think judges grant injunctions on the basis of an over-dramatised tiff?

Of course he's told her you're after his money.

I suspect his sister knows he's not giving the full story but doesn't want to get involved. His mum has said to me she knows he can be 'difficult'. I suppose if I say nothing there's no reason for her to get involved. I've thought often what would happen if I told her and his mum. They both really look up to him. I couldn't do it face to face, but maybe an email, sometimes I want to because it feels so unfair, but I think they would close ranks even more because he'd say I'm crazy. He's kind of done that anyway. The kids are in the middle, and I don't want this to be worse and maybe if I said something it would become worse. She was civil with me but there was definitely something like 'Poor you, do you not realise what you're doing?'

One person I've wondered about is his first wife. I sometimes wonder what she'd say and if he tried to do the same. She's more his age though and had a really good job when they were together. He said they just realised they didn't get on and parted ways. It was years before I met him and I never queried.

It's very tempting to tell them but it's highly unlikely they will believe you, and it will confirm to them that you're as crazy as he says.

They will just go into denial. The mother particularly would find it very difficult to accept she's brought up a son who's capable of sex abuse.

As to his first wife, he probably treated her exactly the same and maybe she got fed up with it, or discovered that he cheated on her.

The thing to remember is that you don't have to tell anyone anything that you don't want to. And that a friend accepts your feelings or decisions without you providing an explanation. If I told my friend that I was leaving my husband, I had a good reason but didn't want to talk about it, she would accept that I had a good reason and support me. His sister is NOT your friend. I wouldn't cultivate a relationship with her or meet her on a personal basis. If you have to have contact with her I'd keep it impersonal. If she tries to get 'involved' or personal I'd just say quietly and politely that there were things in your marriage she doesn't know about and you don't wish to share and that you will not discuss the situation with her.

If you want my honest opinion, neither she nor his mother would 'believe' you. I put it in quotes because even if it rang true to them on some level, they wouldn't accept that their son/brother could be such a terrible person. In other words, denial.

You're doing so well, you know. You're seeing things more clearly. Seeing that this is not your fault and that you are working hard to make a new life for yourself and DCs.

Thanks . You make perfect sense.
The other reason why I met her is that the children are going to be spending at least part of h's holiday with her/their family. I kind of wanted to see where the land lies. I feel really nervous about the children spending so long with him when he's so hostile towards me. I just don't want his sister to think I feel hostile towards her. I feel really worried about the children being away for so long (when we met I thought it could be more) and in some small way I wanted to reassure myself I could still talk to her. But I couldn't really be myself, I was on eggshells the whole time.

The thing that gets me is that somehow underneath what she said is the assumption that because I started all this, any money he contributes towards the children is regarded as doing me a favour, as if his children are less his responsibility.

Anyway, thank you for your wise words.

Tonight, pondering what to do while the children are on hols with H. The house is going to be unbearable. Would it be selfish to go away to my country by myself for a few days? I feel oddly homesick at times at the moment. Mid week flights still really cheap and I'm tempted. Just don't think DCs would be too impressed that I'm not taking them even if it's really short ... Feels strange. Every time they're with him at the weekend I feel a bit on call.

I don't think it would be selfish at all. But keep in mind that your mother isn't your biggest supporter. You don't want to spend the money on tickets only to be subjected to her 'opinions' the whole time. Would you be staying with your parents or are there friends (or your aunt) you could stay with? As far as the DCs, I'd just tell them it was a spur of the moment thing when you happened to see super cheap airfare. Or you could take their father's route and blame it on him 'having' to have them when you wanted to take them to your country, NOT!!!

There are always people with whom we can't be ourselves. That in some way we adopt a 'persona' that's not quite us, yet makes dealing with them easier. You'll find the right 'tone' or 'persona' to deal with his sister and eventually it'll feel 'natural'. Of course you don't want to be on bad terms with her, especially if the DCs are going to be spending time with her. It's not her fault that her brother is a bastard. It'll just be finding that balance and 'tone' to keep the relationship where you want it to be.

And remember, she (and others) can assume all they want about the whys and wherefores of your divorce and settlement. You and the children deserve every penny you receive and she can think what she likes! I'm sure my Ex's friends and family thought I was a royal bitch for 'kicking him out into the streets'. He certainly wasn't going to tell them the truth. Even my own family didn't know the whole story, some still don't. I. Don't. Care.