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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

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Original poster

Can rape ever be a misunderstanding?

180 replies

snowflake02 · 30/08/2014 14:04

I posted here a while back under a different user name.

My husband still maintains that this was just a misunderstanding, which leaves me totally confused. I thought I was abundantly clear in saying 'no', so I'm not sure how he could have misunderstood. But what if he really did just get it wrong? Is it even possible to rape someone by accident? Or is it not rape if it is just a misunderstanding?

I am at a total loss as to how we/I move on from this (and everything else), especially when I feel that he is not acknowledging what actually happened. I feel that he needs to acknowledge it in order to really apologise. Or is this unreasonable of me?

But perhaps I am wrong, maybe it was nothing more than a misunderstanding? His refusal to call it anything else is making me doubt myself again.

OP posts:

EverythingCounts · 30/08/2014 21:10

He will obviously have told them about it in a way that favours him. I can understand why you feel ashamed, but he person who looks bad as a result of that is him. If I'd been told a story by someone I knew even hinting at them not listening to their wife saying no, I would never look at them in the same way again.
Someone said this on the first page: even if there had been a 'misunderstanding' (and I don't think it was - I believe you that you were clear) anyone in that situation would be horrified and remorseful. He isn't. He doesn't care what he's done, he just wants you to shut up about it. So sorry this has happened. He's not worthy of you.

Pinkrose1 · 30/08/2014 21:22

Omg. That is just awful . And he is using his family and giving a biased account to manipulate you!

I would always give anyone the benefit of the doubt, but there is not a shred of doubt in my mind there is no benefit to give him

Joysmum · 30/08/2014 21:27

I remember your other thread.

What bothers me the most about this, is that if he doesn't acknowledge what he did was wrong, he's not going to feel he's wrong to do it over and over again. It only ever happened to me once, and I feel like my ex knew it was wrong and I wasn't in danger again and this was how I was able to belittle the event in my own mind until years later.

Your situation is more serious than mine ever was.

chucklingbunny · 30/08/2014 21:29

OP I haven't read your previous thread but reading this one with shock and sadness for what you have been through . That's the first thing. At the risk of repeating much of what has already been said:

Rape is a very clear law and there can be no misunderstanding from what I have read here, I'm so sorry.
Rape within marriage is no longer legal and there are no mitigating factors, it either is or isn't rape and this clearly is.
If you don't want to report him to the police (which I can understand because of your children) you MUST leave him.
People like this don't change and try to mend their ways, they carry on and the abuse often worsens which will only affect your children badly in the future, they will not thank you for staying with an abusive rapist, even if in the short term they don't understand your reasons for leaving, one day they will.
Please stop the couples counselling immediately and report the counsellor to the relevant bodies for accepting your husband's version of events and making you feel confused in this way - she/he is complicit in his attempts to reel you back in and control you.
Go and see a solicitor to ensure you understand your options and his rights as a father under family law. You should qualify for legal aid under the heading of domestic violence (you will need to prove this with a letter from your doctor, your own private counsellor or a women's aid charity or rape crisis).
Don't let any of his family/friends contact you, change your number if necessary and come of social networking sites while you get sorted out.
Your confusion over what to do is a classic symptom of domestic abuse/violence. He is controlling you and convincing you that somehow you have got this wrong - stop listening to him and listen to your heart.
GET OUT, GET OUT, GET OUT as quick as you can. Get support, speak to your family and friends you can trust, get legal advice and get you and your children out of there - DO NOT LEAVE YOUR CHILDREN WITH HIM.

Good Luck Snowflake xxx

Original poster

snowflake02 · 30/08/2014 21:40

Lots of good advice chucklingbunny, thank you.

PacificDogwood - that is a very good question. For the last couple of months everything has been 'normal'. He is very apologetic 'for everything' and tells me frequently how much he loves me, which I believe he does. But the last serious incident (in my mind) was only a couple of months ago and he denies that this was in any way abusive and was in fact a perfectly rational reaction to my behaviour. (I'm still not entirely clear what I did wrong). I am concerned by this as obviously there is nothing to stop him reacting like this again if he thinks it is perfectly acceptable.

OP posts:

PacificDogwood · 30/08/2014 21:49

Sounds like he is minimising again - making you feel responsible for his actions.

Have you looked at the Freedom Program?

chucklingbunny · 30/08/2014 21:52

He may well believe he loves you OP but only in his own warped and twisted way! What he is doing is not real love: he is not making you feel valued and respected and cherished. He is making you feel scared, confused and blaming yourself for his behaviour!! Please listen to the advice everyone is giving you and leave him before he does something else! BTW the last serious incident IS NOT IN YOUR MIND!! You are entitled to feel the way you feel and to be treated the way you want to be treated, he says it's in your mind and you're believing him! Don't let him undermine what you know to be true - it happened and he will not acknowledge it happened and he's almost got you convinced it didn't happen! You are not at fault here, he is!

chucklingbunny · 30/08/2014 21:53

x post with pacificdogwood - sorry mine is not so concise!

gincamparidryvermouth · 30/08/2014 21:53

I'm probably just being thick, but what did the misunderstanding actually consist of?

You said no, repeatedly, and he heard you, so... where's the scope for "misunderstanding"? What leeway is there for misinterpretation?

Original poster

snowflake02 · 31/08/2014 08:26

Just looked up the Freedom programme, which looks very interesting, as does Respect, which I found by accident when Googling the Freedom programme.

He said he thought i meant 'no as in yes' because apparently he can't tell the difference between someone saying 'we shouldn't be doing this' while fully participating (we were probably taking a risk, which we did sometimes while we were open to the idea of having another baby. Which of course we then did. Or perhaps we were meant to be going out somewhere) and someone saying clearly and repeatedly 'no'. As a couple of people pointed out, I begged/pleaded. That is exactly how I felt. I think there is a very clear difference between the two, but perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps it was confusing for him and I should give him the benefit of the doubt?

OP posts:

TaliZorahVasNormandy · 31/08/2014 08:33

You said No, No is not confusing.

You said No, he didnt give a shit and carried on anyway.

You begged and pleaded for him to stop, he carried on anyway.

He does not and never will see you as a woman or as his equal, to him, you are nothing but an object for his use.

Stop doubting yourself and start saying, "He raped me and I will not stand for that"

PacificDogwood · 31/08/2014 08:45

No.
Do not give him the benefit of the doubt.
He is not granting you that basic level of human kindness.

Do the Freedom Program . And yes, Respect are good too.

chucklingbunny · 31/08/2014 08:57

^^
What these two said.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 31/08/2014 09:02

You know what? Even if what happened was a misunderstanding, it didn't happen in isolation. The context is a relationship where you seem to be saying that sexual assault had happened before, where other abusive behaviour is present and where you have felt the need to undergo personal counselling to enable you to you cope. His attitude towards you sounds like it's only nice when it needs to be. Otherwise it's contempt all the way.

When the whole thing is rotten to the core, it's not all hanging on the definition one incident. It's not a matter for debate either. You have more than enough justification to say confidently that it is a bad marriage that should end. You also have enough grounds to prosecute

Lweji · 31/08/2014 09:04

'no as in yes'
WTAF?!

confusedNC · 31/08/2014 09:39

Snowflake, firstly so sorry for what you're going through.

I haven't been physically abused by my husband but see my user name? That comes from years of going round in circles, rationalising his emotional abusive behaviour, thinking I should go to couples counselling and feeling guilty for thinking of leaving cos of our son. We have now separated and the clarity I'm getting now says there was nothing I could have done to make our relationship happy and healthy. The things I was conditioned into believing were normal have appalled friends and family.

You will go eventually. You can't carry on. If you do, you will be getting ill mentally from the stress and just waiting for something to happen that is clearly bad enough for you to accept that this isn't your fault. Sweetheart... You are already there.

I hope you have some good rl friends? Tell someone everything. Someone who loves you. Watch their reaction. Yes ring women's aid too.

I once had similar experience in my teens. It was a new bf, I hadn't slept with him yet but got in awkward situation and I said no, he carried on. I have never called it rape. In my head easier not to because I don't want to be a victim but lately I've realised, despite my outward confidence, I have self esteem problems.

So stop couples therapy. (read emotional abuse thread on here -what couples counselling does for abusers) Keep going on your own and please talk to someone who loves you who will help you leave.

Pinkrose1 · 31/08/2014 10:02

If you do decide to stay in the marriage and let this go the acid test is how he treats you now sexually. If he is showing respect and not making you uncomfortable maybe he did believe his own actions were not rape? Maybe he did misread the situation? This is not making it right, but only you are in the marriage and know this man better than anyone here.

If you decide to stay this would be giving him a second chance which he must be made to realise would never be offered again. If he approaches you again sexually or in anyway you are uncomfortable at least you will be prepared an there won't be a repeat.

My personal view is I wouldn't trust this man again and I do think he is messing with your head, but only you are in the situation and can assess the situation. Learn about EA and the Freedom program and then you are in a better position to make the right decision.

Pinkrose1 · 31/08/2014 10:05

I've just read the other thread fully, and I think this man is a total shit. I would not give him another chance.

PacificDogwood · 31/08/2014 10:07

Pinkrose, I was going to say to you 'Second chance? He's had plenty more than that' but you got there yourself

Original poster

snowflake02 · 31/08/2014 11:15

ConfusedNC, you are right. I am waiting for something else to happen so I can justify walking away. Even though I know there are plenty of reasons already. I promised myself there would be no more second chances, but when it came to it I couldn't go through with it. I feel that I am much stronger now, so I hope that this time I can keep my promise to myself.

People in real life it turns out aren't so keen to discuss this type of topic or have not reacted well, so I'm trying not to say too much at the moment. I do though have one friend I get to talk to every so often who has been very supportive.

OP posts:

Waltermittythesequel · 31/08/2014 11:22

Perhaps it was confusing for him and I should give him the benefit of the doubt?

You know you don't believe this.

Would you want your dd in a relationship like this? Where her husband was raping her and she was going to counselling with him and finding ways to justify it?

He's really, really done a number on you and I know that that's atrociously hard to break away from but...

If she's raised with him she will think his treatment is ok.

No. She hasn't witnessed any sexual assault but he is not a nice man and he is what she'll be used to.

If you can't do it for yourself, do it for your dc.

Vivacia · 31/08/2014 11:55

People in real life it turns out aren't so keen to discuss this type of topic or have not reacted well

How can they react though? You're still with him - they won't know what to say for the best.

Original poster

snowflake02 · 31/08/2014 12:06

Fair point. But I wasn't expecting any of my family members to doubt me because they have never seen him be abusive. I thought that was how it normally worked? Feeling that I don't have family support doesn't make it any easier to walk away.

OP posts:

TheMaddHugger · 31/08/2014 12:14

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore Sat 30-Aug-14 20:50:49
How can he be sorry for something he insists didn't happen? confused In order to be sorry, you have to admit wrongdoing. He has not. He is not sorry.

I can't say it better. and ^^ this was what I intended to write as I was reading.

((((((((((((((((((((((soft Hugs))))))))))))

Lweji · 31/08/2014 14:08

Did you tell your family the whole thing?

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