Can rape ever be a misunderstanding?

[snowflake02]

I posted here a while back under a different user name.

My husband still maintains that this was just a misunderstanding, which leaves me totally confused. I thought I was abundantly clear in saying 'no', so I'm not sure how he could have misunderstood. But what if he really did just get it wrong? Is it even possible to rape someone by accident? Or is it not rape if it is just a misunderstanding?

I am at a total loss as to how we/I move on from this (and everything else), especially when I feel that he is not acknowledging what actually happened. I feel that he needs to acknowledge it in order to really apologise. Or is this unreasonable of me?

But perhaps I am wrong, maybe it was nothing more than a misunderstanding? His refusal to call it anything else is making me doubt myself again.

[alphabook]

No means no. Whether it's "no, stop, I don't want to have sex with you" or "no, stop, I don't want to get pregnant" either way he heard the no, ignored it, and carried on doing what he wanted despite your wishes. That is rape.

[OxfordBags]

The only people who trout out the 'no means yes' lie are rapists. And that's not because they actually get confused, but because they don't care what no means; they're going to rape whatever is said.

[snowflake02]

I did tell them pretty much everything I think and to start with they said all the right things and then it wasn't spoken about for a while. When I raised it a few weeks later as I needed some support they had completely changed their point of view. Went from 'I want to punch him' to 'well, are you sure he is abusive? I have never seen it. What about your part in it all?' Very careful what I say now.

[OxfordBags]

Those people, even if you love them and they say they love you, are rape-apologising, victim-blaming and minimising. It's a sadly common reaction.

Think about it: of course they haven't seen him be abusive - they haven't got hidden cameras in your home. They weren't in the room when he raped you. They are not a woman that an abusive, misogynist rapist has chosen to abuse and rape. They only know the myths and blame culture surrounding the topic.

Their comments, however well-meaning, are NOT helpful or supportive. They don't want to have to deal with the pain and stress of you being an abuse and rape victim, so they are sacrificing your need for real support and being believed to make themselves feel better about it all.

[LoisPuddingLane]

Also, people can have very clear (if incorrect) ideas about what or who is a rapist. If they know your husband it's going to be quite a leap for them to reframe their idea of him as being an someone who could do that. So they minimise. They probably think that as you are still with him it "can't really have been that bad" and that is will pass.

I'm not saying this is right, but it's probably what they are thinking.

[AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore]

snowflake you must remember that family and friends can sometimes be very invested in keeping things as status quo. A relationship breaking up throws all sorts of things into a tailspin. And I'm not saying that to discourage you from leaving him, but to explain what other people are looking at.

First, this is someone they've known probably all their lives, if family. Abusers and rapists are part of OUR family. They're not people WE know. That's the mentality going there. And "Joe" can't be a bad guy... I KNOW him. Except they don't. Because their relationship with him is utterly different and they don't "get" that.

Second, this changes their perception of the person they've known. And many people cannot get their heads around that. I know that my stbx's family seem to be more willing to believe that I am a complete bitch that left him rather than believe that he was abusive... even though his temper was sometimes right out there for everyone to see. Even though he has a reputation as being a hot head. They would rather believe his twisted and frankly ridiculous story of why we are separated rather than believe the truth.

People often cannot see things that are right in front of them, because they have their "family filter" on. That's Joe.. he's a good guy.. maybe he did get a bit shouty that day, but he was tired.. and oh yes, he punched a hole in the wall, but that guy really wound him up... and well, yeah, he pushed his wife backwards but jeez Sheila was right there in his face and he was tired and stressed.. she should know better....

You see how they follow that line of thought? Family and friends see people through the veil or filter of their "knowledge" of that person for their whole lives. They are often very quick to "explain away" any bad behaviour.

That doesn't make them right.

[AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore]

... sorry, typo... "Abusers and rapists are NOT part of OUR family. They are not people WE know.."

[LoisPuddingLane]

This may seem a bit out of left field, but I was recently watching a documentary and they interviewed the brother of the Yorkshire Ripper. To family he was completely normal, even going so far as to give his brother's girlfriend a lift home because she was scared, and he said the Ripper won't get her while she's with me.

So yes, you can have a complete monster in the family and not even see it, or want to see.

[Mariposa10]

Would it help if you stopped trying to define the word 'rape' in black and white, and just accepted the fact that he has done something unforgivable to you? He coerced you into something you expressed you didn't want and now you feel ashamed, hurt and vulnerable. This is not how a partner should make you feel and he has done something very wrong. He has made you doubt yourself and your confidence is shattered, which is abuse. Stop questioning yourself, it's your life and you have to protect yourself if no one else will.

[LoisPuddingLane]

I would imagine, too, that quite a few people do not realise that there are laws about marital rape. A lot of people of my parents' generation (maybe even mine) believe that when you marry, you give consent to sexual activity and that your husband has what my father used to call "conjugal rights". (The very words make me feel sick).

Rape in marriage only became illegal in 1991 in the UK.

But yes, as Mariposa says, you have to protect yourself. Whatever word you give to what he did, it was wrong and damaging.

[snowflake02]

Really good points about how other people filter things. I was expecting it of his family but had hoped for something different from my own family, but I see now how those filters can apply to anyone who knows him, especially for any length of time.

Mariposa, I think in my head if I can't define it as rape then there is still the possibility that he is right and it was just a misunderstanding. And if it was just a misunderstanding it was no big deal and certainly not something that should break up a family. (Even though that is only part of it) Not sure if that makes sense to anyone else.

[LoisPuddingLane]

It does make sense. I suppose the question is can you continue in the marriage feeling the way you do, and what if it should happen again?

[chockbic]

It sounds to me as if you're still in shock, understandably.

Along with these other people minimizing what happened, and worse, asking what part you played.

It was abuse, plain and simple. If you did decide to leave, it would be as a result of your husband's action, not yours.

Please consider carefully about the message staying with him gives. Not only for you but to your daughter.

[confusedNC]

Op... It's really only in the weeks after we split up, that friends and family have seen my h for what he is. He's no longer invested in keeping up the facade, so he's letting the Mr jekyll out now.

It's not all about this one time. You know this. It's beyond that physical incident. It's about his wider emotional treatment of you and his total lack of respect. You can't minimise that.

Keep talking. To us, to your good counsellor, to your friends. When you split, then people will accept that things were bad enough for you to take a big step. It might take time, but I think they will. While you're still there, it's easier to think it's not that serious.

I went around and around. In the end, he took the decision but I started to accept myself how wrong his attitude towards me was when some friends said if you need to leave, anytime day or night, just come to us. Gradually those around you will understand, and you will too.

Keep talking. Ring women's aid.

[snowflake02]

Thank you. I am so grateful for every single response, they are so helpful to me. Time to get my head together. It is very hard to consider leaving when things are all calm though. It gives me (probably false) hope that things can be put back together again.

[Adarajames]

Rape is rape, no way can ever be a misunderstanding, and if he's willing to do it once, then he obviously has no limits as to what a use he'll put you through, so the calm right now is just that eye of the storm while the centre passes over you, but the wind will hit again shortly, don't trust it; get your important docs / financial eye sorted, speak to WA, and get somewhere safe before the calm is over and the storm huts again. You deserve do much better! Take good care x

[Adarajames]

*abuse not a use

[confusedNC]

I get it. I found the calm kept my denial going. But are you relaxed in that calm? Happy? Can you imagine a happy future in a year, two, five? I had no picture of a future with him. I can picture a future now without him. Not necessarily an easy one but one where we can be healthy and happy without my husband.

[Spadequeen]

I don't want to hijack your thread snow but something similar (though not as bad) happened to me a few years ago.

I think dh thought is was mucking around when I said no, but it took me going limp and in tears to realise I wasn't joking..

I came on here for advice and got very mixed reactions, some said it wasn't that bad as he did stop, others led the ltb chant.

My situation is different to yours, dh was genuinely sorry and did everything possible to show me. We are still together and nothing like that has happened again, I trust him completely. But your dh hasn't shown remorse for what he did, it wasn't a misunderstanding, you said no, you begged no. Don't let others rewrite happened

[snowflake02]

I'm sorry you have had a similar experience Spadequeen. How did he show you he was sorry? Did he acknowledge what had happened? I'm not really sure what I need from him, but naming it and not calling it a misunderstanding would be a very good start.

Confused - your question is harder to answer than it should be. I am only just starting to feel again after being shut down. I don't think I am ever completely relaxed and that worries me in terms of a future together.

[velourvoyageur]

In your case, you said no and that is that, no is no and your H is a rapist, end of story. He is also obviously a liar.

It's in the definition, surely?

The man who raped me kept up a steady current of 'ça fait du bien' (it does you good) and 'what do you want, why don't you like it?' while he was steadfastly ignoring my shaking, my begging and my own steady current of 'no'. It seemed like he hadn't even considered the thought that a woman might not desire him, might want to choose their own sexual partners, and wouldn't be changed their mind and be seduced once he'd got them pinned down. He acted totally puzzled. Of course he was not puzzled, he was acting.

People can adopt all sorts of behaviours which seem extremely convincing. Please don't trust this man. He is already gaslighting you in a sense.

I'm so sorry OP, I hope you are talking to someone about this?

[Spadequeen]

He did acknowledge, and though at first was horrid when the word rape was mentioned, I let him know how unsafe it made me feel, that he could overpower me at anytime and do what he liked.

I've never seen him look so ashamed and guilty. He didn't initiate sex for ages and when I did , he checked with me that I was ok, and kept checking. He was also very gentle and tender (sorry if tmi).

As I said, very different to what you're going through. It might be because he is ashamed of what he did, but if he were truly sorry, he would need to acknowledge it and not make you out to be a crazy person.

[velourvoyageur]

Just read your other op.
I can't believe you were in any way ashamed about it possibly being you who got the condom. A condom does not mean yes. I hope you don't feel that way any more.
I really hope someone is taking care of you now, if you were my friend or daughter, hell even a random woman on the internet as you are, I would want to know you were being supported by someone.

I'm sorry to say this but he sounds absolutely vile and what he has done is irredeemable. And what he's doing in refusing to accept the blame is disgusting and so far from what a loving supportive partner should be doing.
You don't need to be grateful for calm periods or happy that they're there btw, you should expect them. It kind of sounds like you expect another incident- you shouldn't be!

[whitsernam]

In the end, what really matters is how you FEEL; can you really trust him now? If something is actually broken, often it cannot be repaired, or if it is repaired, you still see all the little glue lines (think a porcelain teacup) and bits where something is still missing. It may be attractive, but its not the same as before the break. My bet is that you feel the relationship has been broken. And that's what matters. Not what anyone else feels. A good counselor just for you would probably be helpful, but do interview several before committing to therapy. They are also not all equal.

[snowflake02]

I do feel that it is broken. He has certainly broken my trust in him in various ways and I'm not sure there is a way back from that.

Velourvoyageur you are right, I am expecting something else to happen. But I have no idea when it will come.

Spadequeen - I am pleased that everything worked out well for you. It is interesting to hear how your husbands reaction was so different. My husband was the first to use the word rape. But he was angry about it, though he did apologise. He then went through a process of apparently feeling very bad about himself but then decided he didn't rape me at all, it was a misunderstanding. This totally messed with my head as be basically withdrew his initial apology. He told our counsellor that I was adding details that weren't there initially. I left out one part when we first spoke about it as that was the part that i found the hardest.